"Sodom and Gomorah" Tories /Lib Dems

[Archaeopteryx]

No you have simply rejected the source of authority claimed for the moral argument you have not argued a moral case yourself. You have only said you do not agree with the religious basis on which moral judgments on SSM have been made. You have not articulated the basis on which you think a positive moral decision can be made.

SSM is morally OK because........

Yes, I have rejected your religious argument against SSM. That being the case, I see no moral reason for why it should be opposed.

 

[super animator]

Nazi Germany was God's judgment for tolerating homosexuality? In what sense was homosexuality tolerated before the Nazis rise to power? Because it certainly wasn't tolerated while they were in power.

Not to mention they 're victims of the holocaust program.

 

[mindlight]

Nazi Germany was God's judgment for tolerating homosexuality? In what sense was homosexuality tolerated before the Nazis rise to power? Because it certainly wasn't tolerated while they were in power.

The Weimar Republics toleration of homosexuality was regarded as a symptom of decadence. The Nazis then put gays to death.

Homosexual rights was one of the reasons that empowered the Nazi rise to power. But it was only a symptom of the even deeper spiritual degeneration that had occurred in Germany since the late C19. Liberalisation provoked the extreme and ultimately futile response of the Nazis and the subsequent total devastation of Germany. One of the allied operations against Germany was named after the biblical judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah e.g. Operation Gomorrah.

 

[mindlight]

Yes, I have rejected your religious argument against SSM. That being the case, I see no moral reason for why it should be opposed.

But rejection of Christian or Muslim grounds for moralising is not a positive moral case. You argue from an absence of morals rather than from the presence of them.

 

[Marius27]

Why does no Conservative Christian have the foggiest clue what the story of Sodom was about? Hint: It wasn't gay people.

 

[Marius27]

Homosexuals already had equality. They could marry anyone of the opposite sex that they chose as could any hetrosexual. They also had all the standard contract, employment etc rights of hetrosexuals.

That is such a patently ridiculous argument it's not even used by lawyers arguing against same-sex marriage. That argument didn't work with interracial marriage and it won't work now.

 

[Marius27]

So you think its OK to be gay for instance but why. You haven't answered that question. Why is it OK to be gay?

Because being gay is a biologically fixed trait like blue eyes or red hair. The gay brain is physically structured differently and that occurs in pre-natal development. It's a natural variant of animal sexuality found in every species on Earth. Gay people can't stop being gay. They can force themselves to engage in relations with the opposite sex, but that doesn't change their innate orientation. And that almost always leads to a miserable relationship/marriage for bother partners.

Perhaps if you educated yourself on what sexual orientation is and the science behind it, you might not express such inaccurate, judgmental views.

 

[super animator]

Why does no Conservative Christian have the foggiest clue what the story of Sodom was about? Hint: It wasn't gay people.

It was a story about a group of man commenting rape regardless of sex.
Do I get a cookie.

 

[mindlight]

Why does no Conservative Christian have the foggiest clue what the story of Sodom was about? Hint: It wasn't gay people.

Don't be so sure - we study your scriptures with the same intensity that you Jews do. Christians also have the New Testament to reinforce this interpretation.

as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Homosexual sex was one of many sins listed for the place there was also things like not caring about the poor etc. It was such a degenerate place that even homosexual rape could occur there. Also this OP regards homosexual marriage as merely the tip of the iceberg. It is evidence of deep seated spiritual degeneration of a level not seen in hundreds of years in the UK.

Isaiah 1
2 Peter 6-8
Matthew 10:14-15
Jeremiah 49:18
Ezekial 16:50


But the passage in Genesis 19 indicates very clearly the sin that marked the final decision by the angels to destroy the place was homosexual in orientation.

They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

Throughout the bible homosexual practice is regarded as a symptom of spiritual degeneration and one of those detestable practices of the nations which the Hebrew peoples were to set themselves apart from for instance.

Judges19 v 11 - 20 v 48
1 Kings 14:24;15:12;22:46

The law in Leviticus is very clear about what God thinks about homosexual practice:

Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.......If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

 

[mindlight]

It was a story about a group of man commenting rape regardless of sex.
Do I get a cookie.

Not from me - No

 

[mindlight]

That is such a patently ridiculous argument it's not even used by lawyers arguing against same-sex marriage. That argument didn't work with interracial marriage and it won't work now.

There is no relationship between this issue and the discussions about race.

The discussion here is about an act of evil being called good. It is OK for anyone to marry and all have an equal opportunity to do so. But homosexual actions are an unnatural perversion and the law is there to restrain these not to affirm them. A better analogy than race would have been wife beating or incest for instance.

 

[Dave Ellis]

There is no relationship between this issue and the discussions about race.

The discussion here is about an act of evil being called good. It is OK for anyone to marry and all have an equal opportunity to do so. But homosexual actions are an unnatural perversion and the law is there to restrain these not to affirm them. A better analogy than race would have been wife beating or incest for instance.

The point you're missing is that only a couple decades ago the arguments being used against Gay Marriage were used against Interracial Marriage, and backed by the Bible.

Homosexuality is a natural occurrence, and it's not a perversion.

 

[mindlight]

Because being gay is a biologically fixed trait like blue eyes or red hair. The gay brain is physically structured differently and that occurs in pre-natal development. It's a natural variant of animal sexuality found in every species on Earth. Gay people can't stop being gay. They can force themselves to engage in relations with the opposite sex, but that doesn't change their innate orientation. And that almost always leads to a miserable relationship/marriage for bother partners.

Perhaps if you educated yourself on what sexual orientation is and the science behind it, you might not express such inaccurate, judgmental views.

Absolute rubbish you are merely revealing your ideological presuppositions here. Sexuality is mutable in most people- tastes and indeed enthusiasm rises and falls throughout a persons life. You are not the same person you were having your first sexual thoughts as a child. Also there are cases of people who have made the jump as with the lesbian whose story I shared earlier in this OP. So you can assert all you want but the exception proves the rule and these exceptions do exist. I only need one personal example to prove the possibility and to overthrow any scientific survey you throw at me on this.

Some people are born with a greater disposition to be gay and some will never be hetrosexual. For these the option of celibacy exists and we all have a choice as to whether we live out the thoughts and feelings inside of us or not. The good news is that where we are sinful, indeed wherever we are sinful we can change. To deny that is to deny a persons humanity and choice and also the power of God to transform a persons life for the better. Much of the science on this matter is scientific determinism that reduces people to mere animals and its conclusions can only be cautious and heavily qualified. Surveys by the Family Research Council have dealt with this human and with the moral factor far better than the APA for instance and also come to radically different conclusions about mutability and the suitability of gay people to be parents for instance. Being made in Gods image implies a transcendence that science cannot examine and has never really examined in the case of homosexuality to any great degree of reliability.

 

[mindlight]

The point you're missing is that only a couple decades ago the arguments being used against Gay Marriage were used against Interracial Marriage, and backed by the Bible.

Homosexuality is a natural occurrence, and it's not a perversion.

3 of the early popes were African as was St Augustine. The Ethiopian church was a beacon of light on a dark continent for thousands of years. It was Christians that led the fight against slavery and for justice for black people.

One important difference with the liberation agenda for gays with that of slaves, blacks and women is that Christians are in direct opposition this time whereas they led the fight for these other things. The Christians that support this cannot justify it and have stepped outside the authority of the church. Also the bible verses are not going to change. This will still be wrong in 50 years time however entrenched it becomes in society.

There is nothing natural about homosexuality. It thrives only where it is permitted and affirmed and it is a symptom of deep spiritual degeneration.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The Weimar Republics toleration of homosexuality was regarded as a symptom of decadence. The Nazis then put gays to death.

Homosexual rights was one of the reasons that empowered the Nazi rise to power. But it was only a symptom of the even deeper spiritual degeneration that had occurred in Germany since the late C19. Liberalisation provoked the extreme and ultimately futile response of the Nazis and the subsequent total devastation of Germany. One of the allied operations against Germany was named after the biblical judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah e.g. Operation Gomorrah.

So Nazi Germany was God's punishment for even the slightest toleration of homosexuality? Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?

But rejection of Christian or Muslim grounds for moralising is not a positive moral case. You argue from an absence of morals rather than from the presence of them.

You don't seem to be listening. I said that there is no moral reason to oppose SSM. It doesn't cause harm. It doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights. It won't lead to a catastrophic decline in the human population. The moral case against it has been debunked time and time again.

 

[Marius27]

It was a story about a group of man commenting rape regardless of sex.
Do I get a cookie.

Actually, it's a story about inhospitality and the poor and haughty being inconsiderate to visiting strangers. Rape is merely one element of that inhospitality, and is pretty much irrelevant to the story.

 

[Marius27]

Don't be so sure - we study your scriptures with the same intensity that you Jews do. Christians also have the New Testament to reinforce this interpretation.

Your interpretation is wrong. You cling to modern day English verses pulled out of context, language, and culture and expect that to settle the issue. It doesn't

The law in Leviticus is very clear about what God thinks about homosexual practice:

Nope, that's condemning pagan prostitution in the temples of the Canaanite gods and doesn't say in Hebrew what it says in English. Try reading in context. And considering you don't follow anything else in the Torah, you have no business using that to condemn gays.

 

[Marius27]

There is no relationship between this issue and the discussions about race.

Yes there is because the exact same arguments used against same-sex marriage were used against interracial marriage. Even the trial judge in Loving v. Virginia used the Bible as justification for his ruling.

The discussion here is about an act of evil being called good.

Love between 2 consenting adults is not evil. Your demonization of gay people is quite evil though.

But homosexual actions are an unnatural perversion and the law is there to restrain these not to affirm them. A better analogy than race would have been wife beating or incest for instance.

No, those are patently stupid analogies. Homosexuality is not unnatural or a perversion. You don't know the meaning of unnatural or homosexuality.

 

[Marius27]

There is nothing natural about homosexuality. It thrives only where it is permitted and affirmed and it is a symptom of deep spiritual degeneration.

Something universally found in nature isn't the meaning of natural? What dictionary are you using? I can assure you it has nothing to do with deep spiritual degeneration. Some of the most compassionate, devout people on earth are gay. The only spiritual degeneration I see is from the homophobic bigots. They do not abide by Christ's teachings at all.

 

[Marius27]

Absolute rubbish you are merely revealing your ideological presuppositions here. Sexuality is mutable in most people- tastes and indeed enthusiasm rises and falls throughout a persons life. You are not the same person you were having your first sexual thoughts as a child. Also there are cases of people who have made the jump as with the lesbian whose story I shared earlier in this OP. So you can assert all you want but the exception proves the rule and these exceptions do exist. I only need one personal example to prove the possibility and to overthrow any scientific survey you throw at me on this.

Some people are born with a greater disposition to be gay and some will never be hetrosexual. For these the option of celibacy exists and we all have a choice as to whether we live out the thoughts and feelings inside of us or not. The good news is that where we are sinful, indeed wherever we are sinful we can change. To deny that is to deny a persons humanity and choice and also the power of God to transform a persons life for the better. Much of the science on this matter is scientific determinism that reduces people to mere animals and its conclusions can only be cautious and heavily qualified. Surveys by the Family Research Council have dealt with this human and with the moral factor far better than the APA for instance and also come to radically different conclusions about mutability and the suitability of gay people to be parents for instance. Being made in Gods image implies a transcendence that science cannot examine and has never really examined in the case of homosexuality to any great degree of reliability.

Family Research Council is an anti-gay hate group who has never done scientific research and is endorsing Uganda's genocide bill of gay people. The fact that you resort to a group like that to support your views proves you haven't the foggiest clue what you're talking about. Quoting FRC about gays is like quoting Hitler on the value of Jews. Family Research Council is just as evil as Nazis.