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No such thing as free will.
- Thread starter JackSparrow
- Start date
Ezekiel poses a lot of problems. Why are prophets necessary when all is a done deal, prefixed and unchangeable.
20 The soul that asinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bbear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the crighteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will aturn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Not going to happen though under absolute_determinism/ fatalism, whatever word you want.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Whose ways ?
return ?
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new bheart and a cnew spirit: for why will ye ddie, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Yet these guys are supposed to be totally depraved. Totally unable, as preset by God !
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No. God foreordained all thing before the foundation. All things. Man has no free will remember. He cannot decide to change his mind and repent. Not under Calvinism. No choosing for the totally depraved man.
Most Calvinists have been arguing man is unable because he is unwilling. This stems from the T in TULIP. Hence no turning.
In fact Progmonk, your video clip on another thread you posted in support of Is 45:7 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
How then can man turn from what God ordained ? Even if he had free will - which you deny.
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Wilt
Either God ordained and decreed all things, including mans sin - ALL things. Or he did not NOT ordain and decree ALL things. One or other. Pick one and stick with it. Which do you choose ( or been predestined with ) ?
If God ordained all things including mans sin then what is the point of God sending a prophet telling man to repent if God had already ordained the outcome ? Including mans total inability to hear or understand the word because God ordained all men to have a stony hearts ?
Even if God had predetermined those who would repent it still begs the question why these lucky ones were commanded to repent cos the fact they would repent had been foreordained.
Either way you go results in absolute_determinism/theistic_fatalism which was the question raised in the OP.
Incidentally - this also makes God the author of all mans sin.
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Keachian
On Sabbatical
God ordained all things and decreed some things. Or the other way around I can't remember.
Jonah had the same problem as you seem to be having, see the people of Ninevah repented and Jonah knew that God knew that this would happen and so didn't want to go.
The inability is in man's ability to respond, man wants to be his own God and so this causes him to be unable to respond.
That's not what the Bible says, here it is in a nutshell:
All are commanded to repent,
Only some do
Eh, I don't really care man's will is free and determined. Any trying to reason away the freedom of his will based on it being determined is purely philosophical and has no place in theology.
False conclusion
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Originally Posted by JackSparrow
Either God ordained and decreed all things, including mans sin - ALL things. Or he did not NOT ordain and decree ALL things. One or other. Pick one and stick with it. Which do you choose ( or been predestined with ) ?
You have no idea have you. Why/what are you debating if you cannot remember.
Any idea of he difference between ordain and decree ?
Either God ordained and decreed all things, including mans sin - ALL things. Or he did not NOT ordain and decree ALL things. One or other. Pick one and stick with it. Which do you choose ( or been predestined with ) ?
You have no idea have you. Why/what are you debating if you cannot remember.
Any idea of he difference between ordain and decree ?
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ALWAYS? Really now? What man, regenerate or not, ALWAYS chooses evil, sin? What a chaotic, infernal world we would live in. So, if an unregenerate man has the choice of being faithful or committing adultery, he will ALWAYS choose adultery? What a doctrine you have there Deacon.
A man also walking down the sidewalk doesn't stop and say to himself, I'll commit murder, adultery, and theft; he can choose not to do these things of his own free will.
How is a regenerate man also not bound in sin by your doctrine? Are you not in bondage to sin when you choose to sin? Do you 'sin' less than an unregenerate man? Are your 'sins' purer than his? From what has God set you free, if you continually choose to sin?
If you have the ravages of sin within you, how is that any different than the unregenerate? Do they not also have the ravages of sin within? Can they not use this as an excuse to sin, just as some regenerate do? Why is it that some unregenerate choose not to commit adultery, while some regenerate choose to commit adultery?
Here, let me show you my unshackled free will; NO, I freely choose not to read that book by Pink. You can suggest, command, decree, ordain, determine, or whatever you decide, but I will not read that book.
Pretty simple, isn't it?
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Keachian
On Sabbatical
It's obvious that Jack doesn't understand free will, seeing as he thinks I've shot Calvinism in both feet. I give his rhetoric 0/6
As Cygnus said in the first reply to you:
eh, it's technical and I'm still learning, obviously Jack thinks that in order to clash swords with him one needs to remember everything, even though he doesn't himself understand Calvinism.
Free will to disobey God, hmmm sounds like Calvinism to me
I presented Scriptural truth and you don't want to respond to it, do you want to deal with Scripture, doesn't seem like it to me.
And this is why Lordship salvation is necessary, why it is necessary to repent, the command to repent is the Holiness of God, the disobedience to the command is the sinfulness of man.
You are the one saying that man's freedom of will is non-existent if it is determined.
As Cygnus said in the first reply to you:
No; "this also makes God the author of all mans sin." is a statement.
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So, please tell us what this fruit of the infernal tree tastes like? Since you continually commit Adam's sin, do you continually eat of this tree today? Who planted this tree from which you eat? What color is the fruit? What shape does it take? Do you find yourself naked after eating of this fruit?
I'm not trying to be funny, but you are the one who said you continually commit Adam's sin.
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How does one commit 'this' sin of Adam, of course, unless he doesn't walk in the Spirit? So, would your free-will choice be to continually commit Adam's sin, or walk in the Spirit?
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Keachian
On Sabbatical
I was going to make a funny reply, but felt this would be more edifying to the body:
I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Yes, as Paul said:
I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Yes, I find myself unfulfilled and destitute before the living God every time I sin, every time I take of that fruit I find myself laid bare.
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Does that put gall in your craw? Same thing when men say I will not cast away my transgressions, I will not abstain from wickedness, or I will sin because I have this 'flesh' to which I submit. Do you not think God gets tired of hearing this from His own people, when they, of their own will, do not freely obey His word?
At ease soldier, you may go your way.
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That's okay, a little humor makes the heart glad.
So tell me, what unregenerate man is living by the law? Did you ever live by the law of the Old Testament? Are the unregenerate not alive, seeing they are apart from the OT law?
Then why not walk in the Spirit? Then you will have no problem with this 'fruit'. Mercy, if eating of this 'fruit' makes you this way, choose, of yourself, to quit eating it.
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Keachian
On Sabbatical
Being a Lordship salvation proponent I do agree with you, however I don't understand your objection to the idea that God has determined in some way or another all things, the two are not mutually exclusive and its purely a western philosophical idea that this is riding on.
In regards to my own sin, I identify with Paul in Romans 7 though I do not rest on it as justification for my sinning but rather on the completed work of Christ as having taken away all my sin and having made me right before God.
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Keachian
On Sabbatical
They have the law on their hearts and suppress this knowledge of God to subvert their own nature endlessly in Sin.
I do walk by the Spirit, he guides me in paths of righteousness for his namesake. This also makes me become more aware of my sinfulness, it would be defrauding God for me to not realise this and so I lay everything at the feet of the Cross, my justification, my atonement through the self-administered self-sacrifice of the High Priest of God
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