No such thing as free will.

[DeaconDean]

Neither does free will. Free will was given to Adam. Where was it revoked? Divine Grace was given to Adam before and after he used his free will to believe the devil rather than God. Grace and free will have been available to all since the day Adam was created.

You know, I just read Genesis 3 and nowhere in there does it say Adam believed the devil.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Genesis 3 (KJV)

Can you produce scripture.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[all2Jesus]

My problem with your statement is:

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -Jn. 8:32 (KJV)

Man's will is not truely free until after the point of salvation.

I have maintained, and always will maintain, that man is in bondage to sin, and only after salvation is man's will truely free from the bondage of sin.

Until then, man does not have free will.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Good points. I guess it would be semantics. Before salvation you are like a prisoner locked up in prison. You do have free will because all mankind is born with free will, but you don't have freedom. You are caged. It's your free will choice to obey or disobey the prison guards, but you still aren't free until you're released from prison. When released from prison you are free, and can use your free will to obey or disobey the laws of the land.

Prisoners and free men both have free will choice, just as saved and unsaved both have free will choice. The saved are free from the bondage of sin and death. The unsaved are prisoners of sin and death. FREEDOM and FREE WILL aren't the same thing.

 

[all2Jesus]

You know, I just read Genesis 3 and nowhere in there does it say Adam believed the devil.

Genesis 3 (KJV)

Can you produce scripture.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You're right. Adam chose to disobey God. Eve chose to believe the devil. Their actions are typical of the types of choices we have before us each day.

 

[cygnusx1]

You're right. Adam chose to disobey God. Eve chose to believe the devil. Their actions are typical of the types of choices we have before us each day.

I don't believe the types of choices we have before us each day are comparable to Adam and Eve's choice , that single choice plunged humanity into slavery to sin , servitude to Satan and incarceration to death.

Aside fro which it was a moral decision unlike many decisions we may make.

Mans condition is so bad after the fall that his disposition , his countenance and desire changed ..... The will simply followed .

 

[all2Jesus]

I don't believe the types of choices we have before us each day are comparable to Adam and Eve's choice , that single choice plunged humanity into slavery to sin , servitude to Satan and incarceration to death.

Aside fro which it was a moral decision unlike many decisions we may make.

Mans condition is so bad after the fall that his disposition , his countenance and desire changed ..... The will simply followed .

After God created Adam and Eve he said they were VERY GOOD, yet they both seemed to have enough motivation to disobey God and believe the devil. Today we still have the same 2 decisions to make daily on various issues: Obey God and believe God. The goal is to NOT make the same mistakes as Adam and Eve made. Our mistakes can't plunge the entire world into bondage because it's already happened, but it doesn't mean we can live as we please. God's laws are still before us. Do we obey them? God's promises are still before us. Do we believe them? The types of choices are the same as Adam and Eve. The magnitude is not the same because our choices can't alter the state of every human on earth.

 

[Keachian]

I hold to eschatological panentheism

Theism is what is described throughout Scripture, including in all Eschatology. Pane theism, that is the distinction between God and his creation while still holding an interdependence between the two is not found anywhere in Scripture, if you gave scripture references hat unequivocally support your position that may be different but this is not the forum to discuss such things.

 

[All Souls]

In 1 Cor. 15:28 we find Paul saying that in the eschaton "God will be all in all". Moreover, the utter difference between the divine and the world is not found in scripture. The emerging consensus in the science-theology discussions is that panentheism is the best way of understanding the relationship between God and the world, cf. the work of Arthur Robert Peacocke, Ian Barbour, John Polkinghorne, and Keith Ward.

 

[Keachian]

Panentheism necessitates both the distinction between God and his creation and complete interdependence it is clear from Scripture that there is the first, now show me something that states even in the eschaton that God has an interdependence with Creation, that is that both Creation depends on God and God depends on Creation, you can't it isn't there and is an heretical idea from it's. Conception, God is complete in himself, he had no need to create, the Christian faith has always been and will always be theistic.

 

[All Souls]

Panentheism necessitates both the distinction between God and his creation and complete interdependence it is clear from Scripture that there is the first, now show me something that states even in the eschaton that God has an interdependence with Creation, that is that both Creation depends on God and God depends on Creation, you can't it isn't there and is an heretical idea from it's. Conception, God is complete in himself, he had no need to create, the Christian faith has always been and will always be theistic.

You're working from a half-cocked definition of panentheism.

Panentheism considers God and the world to be inter-related with the world being in God and God being in the world. It offers an increasingly popular alternative to both traditional theism and pantheism...a rich diversity of panentheistic understandings has developed in the past two centuries primarily in Christian traditions responding to scientific thought. While panentheism generally emphasizes God's presence in the world without losing the distinct identity of either God or the world, specific forms of panenethism, drawing from a different sources, explain the nature of the relationship of God to the world in a variety of ways and come to different conclusions about the significance of the world for the identity of God.

See: Panentheism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[ryansbro]

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(2 Timothy 4:1-4 KJV)

 

[JackSparrow]

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(2 Timothy 4:1-4 KJV)

Sound like free will ! Or are you saying this is fate ?

 

[JackSparrow]

My problem with your statement is:

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -Jn. 8:32 (KJV)

Man's will is not truely free until after the point of salvation.

I have maintained, and always will maintain, that man is in bondage to sin, and only after salvation is man's will truely free from the bondage of sin.

Until then, man does not have free will.

God Bless

Till all are one.

When you say "Man's will is not truely free" do you in fact mean just not free. I am not clearly what you mean by truely.

On another thread you used the term "limited menu". Do you mean no menu ?

 

[Keachian]

When you say "Man's will is not truely free" do you in fact mean just not free. I am not clearly what you mean by truely.

On another thread you used the term "limited menu". Do you mean no menu ?

Dean will probably correct me but here is how I understand it:
Before his Salvation man has one head, that is Adam's, under Adam's headship he can only follow in the example of Adam, that is to sin.
After Salvation man comes under the headship of Christ, he should be only able to be righteous, however because the whole of creation still awaits the revelation of the sons of God and us in our bodies still await this as well we are still susceptible to the headship and example of Adam.

 

[DeaconDean]

Dean will probably correct me but here is how I understand it:
Before his Salvation man has one head, that is Adam's, under Adam's headship he can only follow in the example of Adam, that is to sin.
After Salvation man comes under the headship of Christ, he should be only able to be righteous, however because the whole of creation still awaits the revelation of the sons of God and us in our bodies still await this as well we are still susceptible to the headship and example of Adam.

Pretty close.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JackSparrow]

Thanks Deacon Dean and Progmonk.

So man has no free will nor limited menu and ALL things are decreed by God.
You therefore do not disagree withe the notion of theistic fatalism and its parallel with Islam. ? Also since there is no free will man was and is never free to make any decision, though word or deed unless God decreed it. So you ARE saying God is the author of evil ! Even man's evil thoughts.

 

[DeaconDean]

Thanks Deacon Dean and Progmonk.

So man has no free will nor limited menu and ALL things are decreed by God.
You therefore do not disagree withe the notion of theistic fatalism and its parallel with Islam. ? Also since there is no free will man was and is never free to make any decision, though word or deed unless God decreed it. So you ARE saying God is the author of evil ! Even man's evil thoughts.

Look, I'll put it as simple as I know how.

Man has a will, but just how "free" it is is the topic of debate.

Man has a will, but since Adam's time, his will has always been to choose evil, sin.

This is as true today as it was after Noah's flood.

Look at what was said before the flood and then what is said after the flood:

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." -Gen. 6:5 (KJV)

Now look at what was said after the flood:

"And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." -Gen. 8:21 (KJV)

A man walking down the sidewalk doesn't just stop and say to himself, I'll accept, believe, and repent of his own free will.

That just ain't gonna happen.

Man does have a will, but until he is regenerated (born-again) his will is bound in sin. Man is in bondage to sin, and it isn't until he knows God that he is set free.

But even then, he still has within him the ravages of sin. Always at war with the spiritual side.

May I suggest you read Arthur W. Pink's discussion: The Sovereignty of God, Chapter 7, God's Sovereignty and the Human Will."

It explains a lot.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JackSparrow]

Look, I'll put it as simple as I know how.

Man has a will, but just how "free" it is is the topic of debate.

......

May I suggest you read Arthur W. Pink's discussion: The Sovereignty of God, Chapter 7, God's Sovereignty and the Human Will."

It explains a lot.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Thanks for replying. I feel you do not want to commit to an opinion as logically there is only one outcome which does not sit well within Calvinism.

I will study the article.

 

[elman]

Dean will probably correct me but here is how I understand it:
Before his Salvation man has one head, that is Adam's, under Adam's headship he can only follow in the example of Adam, that is to sin.
After Salvation man comes under the headship of Christ, he should be only able to be righteous, however because the whole of creation still awaits the revelation of the sons of God and us in our bodies still await this as well we are still susceptible to the headship and example of Adam.

None of that is in the bible. None of it is logical. In my opinion none of it is true. Read Ezekiel 18. Tell me whose sin results in the destruction of my soul.

 

[elman]

Look, I'll put it as simple as I know how.

Man has a will, but just how "free" it is is the topic of debate.

Man has a will, but since Adam's time, his will has always been to choose evil, sin.

This is as true today as it was after Noah's flood.

Look at what was said before the flood and then what is said after the flood:

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." -Gen. 6:5 (KJV)

Now look at what was said after the flood:

"And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." -Gen. 8:21 (KJV)

A man walking down the sidewalk doesn't just stop and say to himself, I'll accept, believe, and repent of his own free will.

That just ain't gonna happen.

Man does have a will, but until he is regenerated (born-again) his will is bound in sin. Man is in bondage to sin, and it isn't until he knows God that he is set free.

But even then, he still has within him the ravages of sin. Always at war with the spiritual side.

May I suggest you read Arthur W. Pink's discussion: The Sovereignty of God, Chapter 7, God's Sovereignty and the Human Will."

It explains a lot.

God Bless

Till all are one.

What does Ezekiel 18 say about our ability to chose wickedness and the consequences of that choice? What does it say about our ability to chose to love others--righteousness---- after we have destroyed our soul with our own sin? What are the consequences of our turning from wickedness to righteousness? What happens if we do not turn from wickedness to righteousness? This ability to chose wickedness or righteousness does not take away the sovereignty of God. God is the source of our ability to make these choices.

 

[Keachian]

None of that is in the bible. None of it is logical. In my opinion none of it is true. Read Ezekiel 18. Tell me whose sin results in the destruction of my soul.

Actually it is very Biblical, notice that I didn't say that Adam's sin is over us, more accurately I'd say that we continually commit Adam's sin while under his headship.

The Scripture reference for where I develop this understanding of headship is Romans 5