No such thing as free will.

[JackSparrow]

Progmonk

If I build a house on sinking sand knowing it is sinking sand the house will sink. Is it the house's fault or my fault. Is the house responsible for staying upright ?

If god and man totally unable to to no other than sink continually... Progmonk do you get the parallel ?

It's obvious that Jack doesn't understand free will, seeing as he thinks I've shot Calvinism in both feet. I give his rhetoric 0/6

Absolutly correct. E.g thread The Witness of the Apostles Refutes Calvinism, Predestinationism post 980

A question Posted by janxharris
Is total depravity total or not?
In your view, is an unregenerate man able to turn to God or not?

And you Progmonk reply
It is total, and he is not able.


To use the parallel above you are saying God built the man on sinking ground and will always sink and God made it that way.

eh, it's technical and I'm still learning, obviously Jack thinks that in order to clash swords with him one needs to remember everything, even though he doesn't himself understand Calvinism.

Stop telling me what I think. You don't have a crystal ball OK

.....

You are the one saying that man's freedom of will is non-existent if it is determined.

No. Please stop twisting and turning. to repeat, you answer Jan with "and he is not able."

No; "this also makes God the author of all mans sin." is a statement.

Part quoting is a ridiculous stunt. Ill repeat. If man has no free will, none, not even a limited menu (BTW an idea from a Calvinist ) then how could he be held responsible for something he had no means to do otherwise. Particularly as it is God who denied the means. God denying the will/ability/any means for man to obey the command to repent. Does this ( Note progmonk - a question not statement does this -not it does ) leave no other logical conclusion available that God is the author of sin (theistic fatalism). If not why not.

Note progmonk. I have said many times that I am against the idea that God is the author of sin. Do not put words to the contrary into my mouth.

 

[Keachian]

Progmonk

If I build a house on sinking sand knowing it is sinking sand the house will sink. Is it the house's fault or my fault. Is the house responsible for staying upright ?

If god and man totally unable to to no other than sink continually... Progmonk do you get the parallel ?

Your problem is equating God to yourself and a house with man, please stop it is ridiculous.

Absolutly correct. E.g thread The Witness of the Apostles Refutes Calvinism, Predestinationism post 980

A question Posted by janxharris
Is total depravity total or not?
In your view, is an unregenerate man able to turn to God or not?

And you Progmonk reply
It is total, and he is not able.


To use the parallel above you are saying God built the man on sinking ground and will always sink and God made it that way.

Sure I don't really agree with the analogy as a house has no will of its own

Stop telling me what I think. You don't have a crystal ball OK

.....

Well that was the impression I got from you, and for the most part it was a turn to those reading, not yourself.

No. Please stop twisting and turning. to repeat, you answer Jan with "and he is not able."

Just because man is unable to turn to God does not mean he does not have free will. Mans will is free, he is free to go after what he desires and all of the time he desires to sin against man and God.

Part quoting is a ridiculous stunt. Ill repeat. If man has no free will, none, not even a limited menu (BTW an idea from a Calvinist ) then how could he be held responsible for something he had no means to do otherwise.

Because through disobedience to God's law we do violence to his nature, specifically his Holiness

Particularly as it is God who denied the means. God denying the will/ability/any means for man to obey the command to repent. Does this ( Note progmonk - a question not statement does this -not it does ) leave no other logical conclusion available that God is the author of sin (theistic fatalism). If not why not.

Because man must be held to account for his actions, they are not God's actions, they are man's, this is simple stuff, even in synergism you have man being held to account for his actions, is man going to be held accountable for not choosing to repent? Yes of course he is, God's foreknowledge of this is the same as God ordaining it to be so, in both cases man is unable to repent and believe, in both cases God calls people to repent that he knows will never repent, in both cases man is free to do what he desires.

 

[JackSparrow]

Your problem is equating God to yourself and a house with man, please stop it is ridiculous.
Crystal ball gazing again.

Sure I don't really agree with the analogy as a house has no will of its own
Exactly. Does man has a will of its own.


Just because man is unable to turn to God does not mean he does not have free will. Mans will is free, he is free to go after what he desires and all of the time he desires to sin against man and God.
Because his desires have been pre fixed by God - You say (God ordains all things).




Because man must be held to account for his actions, they are not God's actions, they are man's, this is simple stuff, even in synergism you have man being held to account for his actions, is man going to be held accountable for not choosing to repent? Yes of course he is, God's foreknowledge of this is the same as God ordaining it to be so, in both cases man is unable to repent and believe, in both cases God calls people to repent that he knows will never repent, in both cases man is free to do what he desires.

Promonk - "man must be held to account for his actions" BUT " man is unable to repent and believe". Unable because God who ordains all thing made him unable. In a round about way you buy into fatalism.

 

[JackSparrow]

Taken from "Bible Query"

Hi-lights mine

"Calvinist believers say God must control every action, event, thought, by His decree, down to the last atom. They base this primarily on their logic (God would not be God otherwise), Eph 1:11, and Prov 16:4,33. One can see the logical consequences: God is the author of sin, Calvinism is fatalism, and God works against Himself. Calvinists deny these consequences, though.
( the subject of this thread )

All agree that while God permits sin (CX1 ?), God does not tempt people; God is not the immediate cause of sin. Calvinists deny, over and over, that God is the author of sin. Calvinists actually believe God is the ultimate cause of sin, because Calvinists call God the decreer, governor, willer, and determiner of every sin. (A.W. Pink p.101,251-252, Loraine Boettner p.240).


All agree that an impersonal fatalism is false. Calvinists deny, over and over, that Calvinism is fatalism. Since even Calvinists agree Islam teaches that God ordains a personal fatalism, Calvinists are open to the same charge. As one Calvinist put it, "you are either a robot of God or a robot of Satan."


All agree that God is not divided. Calvinists ought to deny that God works at cross purposes with Himself. If people displease God, bring on God’s wrath, successfully resisting God’s revealed will, because God sovereignly chose that they should do so in His secret will, how then God does not agree with what He decrees?
This is my big problem with Calvinism.

An Alternative: God is Interactive. Nothing happens beyond what God allows, God directly controls everything He chooses. God has chosen not to directly control some things, but also permits within bounds. God even permits things that did not originate in His mind (Jer 19:5; 32:35), to happen along with things He desires, such as a measure of human freedom. God works all things together as part of His ultimate plan. (Eph 1:11)."


"permits within bounds". Finite free will or a limited menu!

 

[elman]

Ezekiel 18 poses no problem when everyone commits the Sin of Adam every day, every minute

If that were true, but it is not. So now what do you do about Ezekiel 18?

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Ezekiel 18 poses no problem when everyone commits the Sin of Adam every day, every minute

If that were true, but it is not. So now what do you do about Ezekiel 18?

Are you still carrying on about Ezekiel 18? Can we not move on, so we can begin to focus on the totality of Scripture? Would it not be more beneficial for us to focus our attention to other Scriptures as well? Let's begin with 1 John 5:9-13, shall we? I quoted it below and highlighted a couple of verse in bold print. So now what do you do with this passage, particularly verse 13?

1 John 5:9-13 "9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

 

[elman]

Are you still carrying on about Ezekiel 18? Can we not move on, so we can begin to focus on the totality of Scripture? Would it not be more beneficial for us to focus our attention to other Scriptures as well? Let's begin with 1 John 5:9-13, shall we? I quoted it below and highlighted a couple of verse in bold print. So now what do you do with this passage, particularly verse 13?

1 John 5:9-13 "9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

We can move on when you deal with it. Not before. Do you contend these passages you quote proves Ezekiel had it wrong? I contend your passages do not prove Ezekiel is wrong. Do you agree with me?

 

[Keachian]

If that were true, but it is not. So now what do you do about Ezekiel 18?

Jack has posted the verses he thinks do not much with Calvinism, I have responded, all men who turn from their ways will receive the blessing of God, I have also addressed the problems people seem to have with original sin and this chapter in discussion with Arcoe, so either give me more information on what you think is problematic for the monergist.

 

[elman]

Jack has posted the verses he thinks do not much with Calvinism, I have responded, all men who turn from their ways will receive the blessing of God, I have also addressed the problems people seem to have with original sin and this chapter in discussion with Arcoe, so either give me more information on what you think is problematic for the monergist.

I missed where you delt with Ezekiel 18 where it says we are not responsible for any sin but our own and the only sin that destroys our soul is our own sin. Where it says we can turn from wickedness to righteousness and if we do we will live and not die, but if we do not we will die and not live.

 

[Keachian]

I missed where you delt with Ezekiel 18 where it says we are not responsible for any sin but our own

I did that in post #80, if you want a longer discussion of the points see my discussion with Arcoe starting at post #94

Where it says we can turn from wickedness to righteousness

Really? Where does it say that? Or are you just massaging a concept in there?

if we do we will live and not die, but if we do not we will die and not live.

I agreed with this back in post #84 and #88

 

[elman]

Really? Where does it say that? Or are you just massaging a concept in there?

Ezekiel 18:4 "The soul who sins shall die"
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

0 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

 

[JackSparrow]

Ezekiel 18:4 "The soul who sins shall die"
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

0 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

Romans 1:18-23 affirms.

 

[Keachian]

Ezekiel 18:4 "The soul who sins shall die"
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

0 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

I am aware of what the text says, what I'm wondering is about where it says that man has the ability in and of himself to turn to God.

 

[JackSparrow]

Reminder of the OP

..... If there is no such thing as freewill then everything is determined I.e

Theistic Fatalism.

Right/wrong ?


Please note the hi-lighted bit.

 

[jasonsloss]

Question: "Do human beings truly have a free will?"

Answer: If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them

 

[JackSparrow]

Thanks Jason

One question. You wrote :

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to.

And

It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16).

I have added the hi-lights.

I think you are saying man get a free genuine offer, along with grace and power to chose salvation which they refuse as Jesus identified.

Is my understanding of what you wrote correct ?

E.g No one is free to accept a huge pay rise from an employer if it is not offered. If it is offered then one is free to both accept or reject the free offer. With salvation, it is offered but rejected by some.

 

[elman]

I am aware of what the text says, what I'm wondering is about where it says that man has the ability in and of himself to turn to God.

Do you also doubt man has the ability to turn to wickedness? Do you not see in the passage that it is not God causing us to turn to wickedness?

 

[elman]

Question: "Do human beings truly have a free will?"

Answer: If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them

God does not create us unable from birth to respond to the call of Jesus to repent. If He did, we would not be responsible for failing to repent. You cannot have it both ways.

 

[Keachian]

Do you also doubt man has the ability to turn to wickedness? Do you not see in the passage that it is not God causing us to turn to wickedness?

The passage is quiet on ability, it is a call to repentence

 

[pshun2404]

All I know is when I was asked if I believe the Bible teaches we have free will I had to answer "I have no choice!"

Paul