Messianic Judaism?

[visionary]

I just wanted to add to this. My family, my late mother and late father, sister, brother-in-law, aunts uncles, nieces and nephews, cousins, etc, are Jewish and practice Judaism. By their language, which is my language, I am not observant. To tell them otherwise would be lying to them. This forums language says that I am Torah observant but the Jewish language says that I am not observant. So, I will not call myself observant, as that is not the Jewish definition of observant. Since Messianic Judaism is based on Jewish culture, I think it is misrepresentative to the Jewish community to claim to be observant. So can Messianic Jews who emphasize being a part of the Jewish community, change definition of terminology which originated and is maintained in the Jewish community without risking the appearance of lying? If we are a part of the Jewish community, while representing Yeshua as members of that community, I see it as a very slippery slope. We will cease to be a Jewish movement if we follow that path.

Alas.. by that very definition... we are not Judaism just because we believe in Yeshua as our Messiah.... What needs to change ...our faith or their understanding of the way we see things... ??

 

[macher]

Glad to hear that.. But cultural insulting positions like the one Peter had before his vision need to be reflected in MJ

I've never experienced that in Messianic Judaism and the congregation I attend. In fact the MJAA has close relationships with churches and Christian organizations which is a difference between 'traditional' Judaisms currently and Messianic Judaism.

Some are insulted so to speak about different memberships. A friend at the congregation we attend doesn't have a problem with it as he says it's a Jewish organization. On another note CTOC I believe distinguishes between teachers such as Messianic Rabbi and Messianic Minister.

 

[yonah_mishael]

What about things that are neither commanded or forbidden? Example we don't celebrate Christmas but I don't have any issues with a believer celebrating Christmas provided it's celebrated in a Christ centered way without the secular stuff. I have to find a sermon so to speak that one of the elders at our congregation did on Christmas, it was very good.

I'd like to say that the teaching of non observance isn't OK and or on similar notes that the Law of Moses is abolished etc. I guess I'm more lax than most here.

See, I’d think the opposite would be more sensible. Do you celebrate the Fourth of July (assuming you’re an American)? Do you celebrate Memorial Day or any other non-religious holiday? What if you took Christmas exclusively as a secular holiday without any tie to anything religious? I mean, I celebrate Thanksgiving Day even now that I’m in Israel. I think of Thanksgiving and Christmas as a time to be with family and friends, a time when you have free days from work and school, a time for reflection on the previous year (since it’s at year’s end) and a time for reconnection and love. I don’t think of them in religious terms, and I think this has helped me a lot with getting accustomed to the holidays without resentment (as you often see resentment in those who feel slighted by these holidays – by being outsiders).

What do you think of this?

 

[visionary]

See, I’d think the opposite would be more sensible. Do you celebrate the Fourth of July (assuming you’re an American)? Do you celebrate Memorial Day or any other non-religious holiday? What if you took Christmas exclusively as a secular holiday without any tie to anything religious? I mean, I celebrate Thanksgiving Day even now that I’m in Israel. I think of Thanksgiving and Christmas as a time to be with family and friends, a time when you have free days from work and school, a time for reflection on the previous year (since it’s at year’s end) and a time for reconnection and love. I don’t think of them in religious terms, and I think this has helped me a lot with getting accustomed to the holidays without resentment (as you often see resentment in those who feel slighted by these holidays – by being outsiders).

What do you think of this?

I am in agreement until someone tries to put religious connotations into the occasion like it is the reason for the season.

 

[ananda]

I see that Messianics have put together such doctrinal authorities for their followers, but as it is there is no standard by which one can say that he is a teacher of Messianic Judaism with authority. It really seems chaotic to an outsider, that the MJAA and other groups are just ignored (for lack of a better word). One can declare himself a “rabbi” without any right to the title and just start teaching and gather a following. Would you say that this is not the case?

... but who and what makes the MJAA/UMJC/etc. the definitive voice for Messianic Judaism?

Only those Messianics who came together to organize the MJAA are those who have voluntarily subjected themselves to the MJAA. Messianics who have not endorsed the MJAA are not in subjection, nor can those associated with the MJAA demand their subjection. Substitute MJAA for UMJC, or any other group, and the thought remains the same.

The "problem" remains the same outside of Messianic Judaism. The RCC has its own system, but it does not prevent others (e.g. Anglicans, etc.) from ordaining their own bishops and archbishops and calling themselves the "authentic church". As I am not part of the RCC, it has no authority to demand that I (or the Anglicans) observe its traditions and sacraments, nor should I care if they declare me (or the Anglicans) anathema. Nor am I part of the MJAA or UMJC, and in the same way, these groups and their adherents have no authority to demand that I observe their traditions, nor should I care if they declare me anathema.

Ultimately it comes down to man's desire to control others, man's desire to set up a hierarchy, and man's desire for his identity group to control those outside its sphere of influence. However, it should not be so, as Messiah taught (Mt 20:25-28, 1Pet 5:3, Mt 23:8, etc.). Our beliefs, actions, and identity are ultimately not accountable to any one else but Elohim and Messiah.

 

[macher]

See, I’d think the opposite would be more sensible. Do you celebrate the Fourth of July (assuming you’re an American)? Do you celebrate Memorial Day or any other non-religious holiday? What if you took Christmas exclusively as a secular holiday without any tie to anything religious? I mean, I celebrate Thanksgiving Day even now that I’m in Israel. I think of Thanksgiving and Christmas as a time to be with family and friends, a time when you have free days from work and school, a time for reflection on the previous year (since it’s at year’s end) and a time for reconnection and love. I don’t think of them in religious terms, and I think this has helped me a lot with getting accustomed to the holidays without resentment (as you often see resentment in those who feel slighted by these holidays – by being outsiders).

What do you think of this?

I've been to Christmas events/services at churches and I don't have an issue.

What do I think? I agree with your perspective.

 

[visionary]

I've been to Christmas events/services at churches and I don't have an issue.

What do I think? I agree with your perspective.

And you shouldn't since you have chosen to be in their home turfs.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Interesting that non Torah observance can be seen as Torah obvervance according to the Torah depending on how one looks at it.

That is what is a big issue. And I think it is something that otherrs need to be honest about in light of how others - from the MJAA to UMJC (of which one of the mods belongs to at her church) - have noted that same reality. We cannot arbitrarily begin to say "Well, they're teaching Non-Observance of Torah because they disagree with my own view of what Torah calls for in observance" - as that goes nowhere quick. And in all of the discussion, I've yet to see one example of where someone has acturately shown that something was ever being against what the TORAH said. Many times, in being asked to go in-depth, a lot of people then raise fuss of not having to defend their view.

It's one thing to claim someone's not "Torah Observant" because they feel that the dietary laws of the Mosaic code were ever meant to apply for all time to Jewish believers - but it's another thing to actually show historically/contexually that what they advocate as "Torah Observance" for the DIetary Laws is just that. Messianic Jews have all debated - all in desire of keeping/observing Kosher - what rules were meant to be in play for Jewish people.

Shoot, others feel that eating bugs of certain types like locusts are allowed while others are to discontinue - such as is the case with the Jews of Yemen and how they have been deemed to be "non-Kosher" by the Askenazi Jews for their views on eating locusts. Both groups are focused on Torah/honoring it - and yet both have differences on what is or isn't to be "kosher". More was discussed explictly on the subject here, here and here/here. Even some of the people here complaining actually jumped in/shared their thoughts of where they didn't really agree with certain foods in the Dietary Laws because they were not comfortable eating bugs as other Jewish groups were - and there was honest dialouge on what it means to live according to Kosher.

But by the logic of some arguing in the thread, if one side feels another is acting "non-kosher", then it's okay to rant that what they do is promoting "non observance".....and it is completely divorced from anything related to Jewish culture/Torah when others do just that. That needs to stop..

 

[Qnts2]

Alas.. by that very definition... we are not Judaism just because we believe in Yeshua as our Messiah.... What needs to change ...our faith or their understanding of the way we see things... ??

Messianic Judaism is Judaism. That is a basic belief in Messianic Judaism.

Yeshua is the Messiah for the Jewish people (and the Gentile people). Right now, most of Judaism rejects Yeshua as the Messiah, but that does not mean belief in Yeshua the Messiah, is a non-Jewish belief. Believing on Yeshua is very much Jewish, and in the future, all Jewish people who are alive to see His return, will believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah. As a part of Judaism, we recognize that now, but in the future, all of Judaism will include the Messiah as Yeshua.

From the UMJC statement of faith:

Messiah’s community is a single community expressed in diverse forms within the Jewish community and among the nations

From the MJAA: Messianic Judaism - MJAA


OVERVIEW
Messianic Judaism is a Biblically based movement of people who, as committed Jews, believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Jewish Messiah of Israel of whom the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke.
To many this seems a glaring contradiction. Christians are Christians, Jews are decidedly not Christian. So goes the understanding that has prevailed through nearly two thousand years of history.
Messianic Jews call this a mistaken - and even anti-Scriptural - understanding. Historical and Biblical evidence demonstrates that following Yeshua was initially an entirely Jewish concept.

...

Another important aspect of the Messianic Jewish movement is Jewish congregational worship. If Yeshua really is the Jewish Messiah of whom all the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke, then it is the most Jewish thing in the world to follow Him!
Should Jews really attempt to assimilate into churches and forego their Jewish identity when they choose to put their faith in the Jewish Messiah? Messianic Judaism answers, "No!"
As Yeshua Himself embraced His Jewishness, Messianic Jews seek to embrace theirs, by meeting in congregational communities with other Jewish believers and by maintaining a Biblically Jewish expression of their faith. Every congregation is different, but this expression often means worshiping in Hebrew, following Mosaic Law, dancing as King David did before the Lord, and keeping Biblical holidays such as Pesach, Sukkot, or Shavuot.
Also important is Messianic Judaism's ministry to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers. Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world, and Messianic Jews hope to help all believers in Yeshua to better understand the Jewish roots of their faith. Finally, Yeshua declared that no-one can comes to the Father - the God of Israel - except through Him (John 14:6). Messianic Jews seek to share this way, this truth, and this life with their Jewish brothers and sisters.


From the UMJC core values:

1. Congregational success

• The local congregation is foundational to Messianic Judaism. Therefore, we are committed to the success of our member congregations as places where Jewish people can encounter Yeshua as Messiah and live for him as Jews.
  
  

 

[visionary]

Messianic Judaism is Judaism. That is a basic belief in Messianic Judaism.

Yeshua is the Messiah for the Jewish people (and the Gentile people). Right now, most of Judaism rejects Yeshua as the Messiah, but that does not mean belief in Yeshua the Messiah, is a non-Jewish belief. Believing on Yeshua is very much Jewish, and in the future, all Jewish people who are alive to see His return, will believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah. As a part of Judaism, we recognize that now, but in the future, all of Judaism will include the Messiah as Yeshua.

I too believe that day will come, but currently in the body of Judaism it is not a prevailing attitude regarding Yeshua. Nor should we accept Noahide laws for gentiles as gentiles because of its attitude towards Yeshua.

 

[pat34lee]

In Messianic Judaism, the MJAA and the UMJC, certain things were setup so that Messianic Judaism would remain Jewish in viewpoint.

To remain culturally Jewish, with Jewish roots, certain things need to remain from a Jewish context, and that context would be from a traditional Judaism understanding, where is does not conflict with Yeshua.

Just something to consider. Christianity started out as a Jewish movement. Gentile believers greatly exceeded in numbers the Jewish believers. Obviously, Christianity at the council of Nicea, rejected the Jewish roots. So, it is a Gentile practice. If MJ also is influenced by the larger numbers of Messianic Gentiles, to leave the Jewish culture, MJ will become a Gentile version of what is Jewish, and not a Jewish version.

So, it is going to have to be a careful balance. Will, Messianic Judaism remain Jewish or will it become Gentile. Right now, the UMJC and the MJAA have rules which are meant to keep it from becoming a Gentile group with Gentile ideas of first century practice. At the same time, Messianic Judaism is attempting to adjust to the needs of Messianic Gentiles.

Christianity rejected Judaism. At about the same time, Judaism rejected both messianics and Christians. This rejection is at the core of rabbinic theology, which is why you can be a Buddhist Jew or atheist Jew, but not a Christian Jew.

As Judaism (and Christianity for that matter) is much older than the current rabbinic system, why should that be the standard for MJ? Instead of copying the newer religion, we should be going back to its origins.

 

[yonah_mishael]

... but who and what makes the MJAA/UMJC/etc. the definitive voice for Messianic Judaism?

Only those Messianics who came together to organize the MJAA are those who have voluntarily subjected themselves to the MJAA. Messianics who have not endorsed the MJAA are not in subjection, nor can those associated with the MJAA demand their subjection. Substitute MJAA for UMJC, or any other group, and the thought remains the same.

The "problem" remains the same outside of Messianic Judaism. The RCC has its own system, but it does not prevent others (e.g. Anglicans, etc.) from ordaining their own bishops and archbishops and calling themselves the "authentic church". As I am not part of the RCC, it has no authority to demand that I (or the Anglicans) observe its traditions and sacraments, nor should I care if they declare me (or the Anglicans) anathema. Nor am I part of the MJAA or UMJC, and in the same way, these groups and their adherents have no authority to demand that I observe their traditions, nor should I care if they declare me anathema.

Ultimately it comes down to man's desire to control others, man's desire to set up a hierarchy, and man's desire for his identity group to control those outside its sphere of influence. However, it should not be so, as Messiah taught (Mt 20:25-28, 1Pet 5:3, Mt 23:8, etc.). Our beliefs, actions, and identity are ultimately not accountable to any one else but Elohim and Messiah.

It’s interesting that you refer to Anglicans over and against Roman Catholics. Do you think it would be in MJ’s best interest to splinter into a million factions like what has happened with mainstream Protestantism? Would it not be in their interest to endorse a leader who will encapsulate as many diverse views as can be tolerated under an umbrella that includes the major doctrinal ingredients? The problem is just that – that there are so many who don’t have the requisite knowledge making doctrinal decisions and starting their own followings. If I were ever to become an MJ, I would follow the MJAA or another recognized group rather than starting my own movement. Can’t you agree that even if you don’t accept every tenet of the religious statement, you should remain in fellowship? Does it mean nothing? I don’t agree with all of Conservative Judaism, but I would never start my own group…

 

[yonah_mishael]

Christianity rejected Judaism. At about the same time, Judaism rejected both messianics and Christians. This rejection is at the core of rabbinic theology, which is why you can be a Buddhist Jew or atheist Jew, but not a Christian Jew.

As Judaism (and Christianity for that matter) is much older than the current rabbinic system, why should that be the standard for MJ? Instead of copying the newer religion, we should be going back to its origins.

In my opinion, you’ve bought into the arguments that have been created only for the vilification and denigration of rabbinic Judaism. These statements are overly simplistic and do not really take history into account. I’m not sure what the standards of Messianic Judaism should be based on, but statements like what you’ve just parroted do not add to the value of the collective commenting about such standards. Vilification of Judaism does not connect your perspectives to something older.

 

[pat34lee]

Messianic Judaism is Judaism. That is a basic belief in Messianic Judaism.

Yes, but is rabbinic Judaism, Judaism? I hold that it is an offshoot of the original faith, no more true to the original than Christianity.

Yeshua is the Messiah for the Jewish people (and the Gentile people). Right now, most of Judaism rejects Yeshua as the Messiah, but that does not mean belief in Yeshua the Messiah, is a non-Jewish belief. Believing on Yeshua is very much Jewish, and in the future, all Jewish people who are alive to see His return, will believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah. As a part of Judaism, we recognize that now, but in the future, all of Judaism will include the Messiah as Yeshua.

Rejection of Yeshua, his followers and the resulting movement is one of the most basic premises of rabbinic Judaism. You can reject 99% of Judaism and still be a Jew, but accept Yeshua and you're out. This is why MJ's must reject the rabbinic system.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Yes, but is rabbinic Judaism, Judaism? I hold that it is an offshoot of the original faith, no more true to the original than Christianity.



Rejection of Yeshua, his followers and the resulting movement is one of the most basic premises of rabbinic Judaism. You can reject 99% of Judaism and still be a Jew, but accept Yeshua and you're out. This is why MJ's must reject the rabbinic system.

You neglect Jewish rabbis who became believers and stayed within Judaism.

 

[macher]

You neglect Jewish rabbis who became believers and stayed within Judaism.

Like the Apostle Paul

 

[mishkan]

You neglect Jewish rabbis who became believers and stayed within Judaism.

Like the Apostle Paul

Have to agree with these two.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Isaac Licthenstein

Zvi Soloveitchik possibly.

Rabbi Daniel Zion.

Rabbi Yechiel Tzvi Lichtenstein

 

[pat34lee]

In my opinion, you’ve bought into the arguments that have been created only for the vilification and denigration of rabbinic Judaism. These statements are overly simplistic and do not really take history into account. I’m not sure what the standards of Messianic Judaism should be based on, but statements like what you’ve just parroted do not add to the value of the collective commenting about such standards. Vilification of Judaism does not connect your perspectives to something older.

It is no more vilification of rabbinic Judaism to point out its ingrained flaws and prejudices than it is for Christianity. If a system is bad or broken, it does not help to ignore what is wrong with it and hope it fixes itself. Can we fix rabbinic Judaism from outside? No. But we can take MJ back to how it should be instead of perpetuating their mistakes.

 

[pat34lee]

You neglect Jewish rabbis who became believers and stayed within Judaism.

I haven't heard of any real examples. Do they still hold the same level of prestige of their communities and fellow Jews that they had before becoming believers?