Messianic Judaism?

[Qnts2]

Originally Posted by yonah_mishael

But: (1) You are not Torah observant and (2) your beliefs in most matters are very Protestant Christian. You're exactly the type of person he's writing about.
​

Originally Posted by yonah_mishael

Do you think Jesus would recognize anything of your religious practice? Honestly?
​

Here is an example of a Jew stating that my Torah observance is not... nor would "Jesus" recognize it as such.... which should be unacceptable... I know where he is coming from.. because that is the way Jew "Judaism" teaches.. but I do not believe MJ should promote it.... By the way the little "Jesus" term thrown in there was a little over the top since I do not see Yeshua in the light of the Roman/Greek "Jesus" projected.. it is like my Messiah has been stripped of His Rabbi robes.

It is a statement which would be made by someone who is Jewish, but not Messianic Jewish.

Observant, in Judaism means essentially Orthodox in practice (although there are Jewish people from other branches who are observant).

When I first came here, I objected to the term, Torah observant, as what is practiced and taught is not 'observant' as I view it. Tish told me that she considers a person as Torah observant, if they 'observe' any of the Torah, such as Sabbath, or the holy days, or more. So, for this forum, that is Torah observance, people who meet on the Sabbath, or celebrate Passover. Not that I agree.

I talked to some of the Rabbis of Messianic congregations who promote Torah observance concerning these contradictory definitions, Judaism vs. Messianic Judaism, and they said this was done more for those who did not grow up 'observant' in the definition of Judaism. Personally, I still don't like it is we are using Judaism terminology but with a different meaning in Messianic Judaism. It is bound to cause confusion.

So, if Yonah is using the definition of 'Observance' from Judaism, he is correct.

As far as beliefs being similar to Protestant Christianity. I'm not sure what Yonahs beliefs are. From a perspective of Judaism, not Messianic Judaism, Messianic Judaism does share some beliefs in common with Protestant Christianity so from the view of Judaism, Messianic Judaism is often compared to Protestant Christianity. When it comes to Yeshua, and what Messianic Judaism believes about Yeshua, it is pretty much the same as Protestant Christianity, except, Messianic Judaism emphasizes that Jesus is the Messiah, the Jewish Messiah. (Trinity, Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, was buried and rose again, and it is only thru faith in Yeshua, that we might be saved and not works).

As far as Jesus not recognizing your practices, that is absolutely wrong. Jesus not only recognizes your faith, but is pleased by your faith, and I am sure He is smiling upon you.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

what I find here is a lot of contention against those in Christianity whether they come here and preach against or they don't. Which is my point. When someone posts that they observe Sunday as an example without preaching against Saturday.... Other who keep Saturday shouldn't come and preach against those that keep Sunday especially if the person isn't preaching against neither.

I guess I'm defending the Christians here who fall in this category.

Indeed. THere've been several discussions where others have noted that going to fellowship on Saturday is something they see as a part of the Torah command to honor Sabbath - but they also go to the Church on Sunday and have noted that Jewish believers met together as often as possible to fellowship/celebrate the Lord. Noting such is not "non-Torah" observance - although others often put it as such alongside claiming that worhsipping the Lord is somehow a "pagan" event - despite the fact that Shavout/Pentecost happened on Sunday.

It is also the case that others throughout Judaism have noted where Sabbath was never just a day - as it concerns Sabbath Years or Weeks (Leviticus 25:1-17) and Days ( Leviticus 23:27 )the Lord called others in the TOrah itself to consider as Sabbath (and of course, calenders) - more discussed in thread such as #51 , here or here or here in the following:

• Guidance on Sabbath arguments..
• To All Friday, Saturday and Sunday keepers.
• Can any one explain the lunar sabbath to me?

People noting such still honor the Sabbath - and yet due to honest addressment of what the TOrah said and how it differs from the view of a minority, it is deemed to be non-TOrah observance....and the same people crying "Get rid of all the Non-Torah Observers" don't even show any effort or action to live/walk out the rest of what the Torah says on the issue.

Anytime people are searching the scriptures/seeking to honor what actualy happened in the TOrah itself, it is Torah Positive - and that is something that needs to occur.

 

[macher]

Talking on how Paul did not advocate for Gentiles to ever be required to keep Kosher within Jewish fellowships or any other synagouge since the Lord did not call them to such is not a matter of being non-Torah observant since the Torah itself stated such directly and forcefullly. What often happens is that honest discussion on what Gentiles are called/meant to do according to Torah and seeing what Yeshua did on a number of occassions is wrongly assumed to be "Torah non-Observance" when it doesn't line up with an ideology of what Torah is - and that's not being honest on what actually is recorded in the Torah itself. If others wish to take issue with that and report, it can just as easily be equally reported that they themselves are not really dealing with the Torah on its own terms and seeing what it defines as positive Torah involvement.

Interesting that non Torah observance can be seen as Torah obvervance according to the Torah depending on how one looks at it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think the more relaxed view in Messianic Judaism, are the Jewish believers.

I personally did not leave Christianity or a Christian church. I joined in worship with Messianic Judaism, because it is more culturally Jewish. So, I don't have anything against Christian churches, other then that they wanted me to act like a Gentile and abandon Jewish culture. Since most were Gentile, and had a difficult time telling the difference between Jewish culture and being 'bound', I can't really blame them, but also, I am more relaxed in Messianic Judaism. I know born again Christians are brothers (and sisters) in the Lord, and many dearly love Yeshua, seeking to serve Him with all that they are. I certainly can not object to that, but instead encourage and applaud that.

Jewish people in general tend to be more relaxed in religious observance, and less anti-.... on others practices.

On the other side, the more recent Gentiles who have joined Messianic Judaism, aren't joining us, so much as objecting and leaving the church. It is an entirely different view.

Indeed .Many other Messianic Jews have noted the same thing.

It's one thing noted where there's dissatisfaction with certain branches within Christendom/Christianity - but it's another thing altogether saying that those apart of Messianic Judaism who see it as connected to CHristianity are either "lying" or "practicing replacement theology" automatically. It is even more the case when others ask inquiries on how Messianic Judaism feels and others share directly what has been said in the Messianic Jewish movement - only to have it debated/said that CHristians cannot represent Messianic Judaism. The same thing goes for saying Messianic Judaism is somehow inherently anti-semitic at its core - as that has no place for sharing on a CHristian forum.

 

[visionary]

Originally Posted by yonah_mishael

But: (1) You are not Torah observant and (2) your beliefs in most matters are very Protestant Christian. You're exactly the type of person he's writing about.
​

Originally Posted by yonah_mishael

Do you think Jesus would recognize anything of your religious practice? Honestly?
​

It is a statement which would be made by someone who is Jewish, but not Messianic Jewish.

Observant, in Judaism means essentially Orthodox in practice (although there are Jewish people from other branches who are observant).

When I first came here, I objected to the term, Torah observant, as what is practiced and taught is not 'observant' as I view it. Tish told me that she considers a person as Torah observant, if they 'observe' any of the Torah, such as Sabbath, or the holy days, or more. So, for this forum, that is Torah observance, people who meet on the Sabbath, or celebrate Passover. Not that I agree.

I talked to some of the Rabbis of Messianic congregations who promote Torah observance concerning these contradictory definitions, Judaism vs. Messianic Judaism, and they said this was done more for those who did not grow up 'observant' in the definition of Judaism. Personally, I still don't like it is we are using Judaism terminology but with a different meaning in Messianic Judaism. It is bound to cause confusion.

So, if Yonah is using the definition of 'Observance' from Judaism, he is correct.

As far as beliefs being similar to Protestant Christianity. I'm not sure what Yonahs beliefs are. From a perspective of Judaism, not Messianic Judaism, Messianic Judaism does share some beliefs in common with Protestant Christianity so from the view of Judaism, Messianic Judaism is often compared to Protestant Christianity. When it comes to Yeshua, and what Messianic Judaism believes about Yeshua, it is pretty much the same as Protestant Christianity, except, Messianic Judaism emphasizes that Jesus is the Messiah, the Jewish Messiah. (Trinity, Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, was buried and rose again, and it is only thru faith in Yeshua, that we might be saved and not works).

As far as Jesus not recognizing your practices, that is absolutely wrong. Jesus not only recognizes your faith, but is pleased by your faith, and I am sure He is smiling upon you.

Exactly... but that is also that where the contention lies.... does MJ get to define what Torah is in light of Yeshua or by Judaism traditional understanding?

 

[ContraMundum]

Hi Tishri,

Time to confess. Recently, I did something regrettable. I purposely provoked someone to anger. It happened to one of the members of CF, but not here at CF. It was on a different site. The person in question enjoys a good reputation here, but a few things made me suspicious. I did it because I was sure that the person in question was not being completely honest or sincere. I wasn't disappointed. It turns out that I was right. In their anger, they let their true colors show.

There was some serious accusations made in both directions. There was some name calling. There was some declaration that I found to be most informative. In the end, the person in question declared I was wrong for saying what I did about them and demanded I repent. I said that if I was wrong, that I would be the first to repent and ask them to repeat a positive statement about Torah observance as proof I was wrong. It didn't happen - over there. But it happened over here Tishri, after it was clear which way you were leaning. They declared for Torah observance after innumerable posts in support and agreement with one of the most outspoken critics of Torah observance in this place.

During their rant, I learned that the person is a professional Torah teacher. That means they get paid! Whoo hoo! And they have been Torah observant since childhood. And they have people! I was also informed that they know more Torah than we do. But they would not teach Torah here. They told me to Google rotary engine. Evidently I remind them of something similar to a Wankel (Thanks, I like the pun even if not the implications). BTW, I learned that I get my doctrine from Google and my name is Gomer Pyle too. I'll just add that name to my list of homonyms.

Way to misrepresent what I said! A few spins in there that are far from honest. You've got to back off.

You ought to go into politics. It would suit.

Funny, after reading the whole post....I realize you deliberately provoked me, and that you are not really sorry, and that you twisted my words. I'm sad for you. I'll survive this violence and unTorah provocation. It will take years for me to trust you (and others) again. I'm sorry to say that you have earned that reputation now. And next month, when I get to teach another group of Christians on a retreat about things Jewish...I'll think of you. I'm doing my bit in the real world to build bridges. You've just torched a few.

 

[ContraMundum]

Exactly... but that is also that where the contention lies.... does MJ get to define what Torah is in light of Yeshua or by Judaism traditional understanding?

The $64 question?

Can o' worms.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I have. It's all about interpretation. Gosh, I've been misinterpeted so often it stopped me posting for two months earlier this year. It's still happening. I know I am also guilty of misinterpretation, but I do my best.

So true...and that is something that requires charity whenever it comes to discussing issues/history.

There were many times people were deemed to be "anti-Christian" simply because they disagreed with certain things within CHristianity occurring - such as saying believers must worship on Sunday or believing that the Church has replaced Israel...or believing that the Festivals are not important. You get the picture. Many people responded noting that their pointing out where Christianity may be at odds in certain parts with Jewish culture is not an issue...and they qualified it y saying that they explicitly support Christianity/Christians.

However, it is another thing when others claim that Christians in general don't care about GOd's Torah/Law - or making comments that are snide/insulting to others, like saying "Well what do they do but keep only 9 of the 10 commandments?!" (as if the people saying such really keep all 10 or the rest of the 613 commandments as they were practiced in Mosaic LAW).....or making comments such as "I believe the core of Christianity is anti-semitic and all Christian theology is about doctrine rather than practice" since extensive amounts of CHristians have never been as such and have spoken against it.

To try to justify that is like someone saying "You're stupid!!" and then backtracking by saying "Well, I'm not saying the person is not intelligent!" as the language doesn't match the claims. And saying one is not preaching against Christians doesn't do when there's ample evidence - both here on this forum and others where people participate/much worse is said - and we have to be honest on that. If you cannot admit when critiquing CHristianity that you're a CHristian or in support of Christians/Jewish believers who express Jewish culture within the confines of CHristianity, you cannot claim that you also are not "bashing CHrisitans."

 

[visionary]

Indeed .Many other Messianic Jews have noted the same thing.

It's one thing noted where there's dissatisfaction with certain branches within Christendom/Christianity - but it's another thing altogether saying that those apart of Messianic Judaism who see it as connected to CHristianity are either "lying" or "practicing replacement theology" automatically. It is even more the case when others ask inquiries on how Messianic Judaism feels and others share directly what has been said in the Messianic Jewish movement - only to have it debated/said that CHristians cannot represent Messianic Judaism. The same thing goes for saying Messianic Judaism is somehow inherently anti-semitic at its core - as that has no place for sharing on a CHristian forum.

Since the topic is about what is brought into MJ forum section ..... shouldn't that which MJ has come to understand and does not promote ... not be promoted in MJ as a MJ stance??

 

[ContraMundum]

So true...and that is something that requires charity whenever it comes to discussing issues/history.

There were many times people were deemed to be "anti-Christian" simply because they disagreed with certain things within CHristianity occurring - such as saying believers must worship on Sunday or believing that the Church has replaced Israel...or believing that the Festivals are not important. You get the picture. Many people responded noting that their pointing out where Christianity may be at odds in certain parts with Jewish culture is not an issue...and they qualified it y saying that they explicitly support Christianity/Christians.

However, it is another thing when others claim that Christians in general don't care about GOd's Torah/Law - or making comments that are snide/insulting to others, like saying "Well what do they do but keep only 9 of the 10 commandments?!" (as if the people saying such really keep all 10 or the rest of the 613 commandments as they were practiced in Mosaic LAW).....or making comments such as "I believe the core of Christianity is anti-semitic and all Christian theology is about doctrine rather than practice" since extensive amounts of CHristians have never been as such and have spoken against it.

To try to justify that is like someone saying "You're stupid!!" and then backtracking by saying "Well, I'm not saying the person is not intelligent!" as the language doesn't match the claims. And saying one is not preaching against Christians doesn't do when there's ample evidence - both here on this forum and others where people participate/much worse is said - and we have to be honest on that. If you cannot admit when critiquing CHristianity that you're a CHristian or in support of Christians/Jewish believers who express Jewish culture within the confines of CHristianity, you cannot claim that you also are not "bashing CHrisitans."

Brother, judging from the PMs I have received today, and the post by Tal above, I think there is a massive amount of disengenuous posting right now. What has shocked me is that it was all orchestrated- deliberate misquotes and everything. So, I just say let them have at it. If they honestly believe such things....let em believe it. One day they will find the healthy balance and work it out.

 

[macher]

Since the topic is about what is brought into MJ forum section ..... shouldn't that which MJ has come to understand and does not promote ... not be promoted in MJ as a MJ stance??

What is Messianic Judaism?

 

[visionary]

What is Messianic Judaism?

Faith in Yeshua as our Messiah and Rabbi, of which we are to live His example of Judaism since He provided it at Mount Sinai and thus best able to interpret it.

 

[Avodat]

Since the topic is about what is brought into MJ forum section ..... shouldn't that which MJ has come to understand and does not promote ... not be promoted in MJ as a MJ stance??

Give some concrete examples, especially for those of us who haven't the foggiest idea what you are alluding to.

 

[ContraMundum]

What is Messianic Judaism?

A very close friend of mine when asked this always answers "tell me what MJism is so I can join".

 

[Qnts2]

Exactly... but that is also that where the contention lies.... does MJ get to define what Torah is in light of Yeshua or by Judaism traditional understanding?

In Messianic Judaism, the MJAA and the UMJC, certain things were setup so that Messianic Judaism would remain Jewish in viewpoint.

To remain culturally Jewish, with Jewish roots, certain things need to remain from a Jewish context, and that context would be from a traditional Judaism understanding, where is does not conflict with Yeshua.

Just something to consider. Christianity started out as a Jewish movement. Gentile believers greatly exceeded in numbers the Jewish believers. Obviously, Christianity at the council of Nicea, rejected the Jewish roots. So, it is a Gentile practice. If MJ also is influenced by the larger numbers of Messianic Gentiles, to leave the Jewish culture, MJ will become a Gentile version of what is Jewish, and not a Jewish version.

So, it is going to have to be a careful balance. Will, Messianic Judaism remain Jewish or will it become Gentile. Right now, the UMJC and the MJAA have rules which are meant to keep it from becoming a Gentile group with Gentile ideas of first century practice. At the same time, Messianic Judaism is attempting to adjust to the needs of Messianic Gentiles.

 

[macher]

A very close friend of mine when asked this always answers "tell me what MJism is so I can join".

I familiar and acquainted with the MJAA definition which is somewhat in line with Reform and/or between Reform and Conservative.

Is the point of this topic to define what Messianic Judaism is according to the Messianic Judaism forum in Christian Forums?

 

[ContraMundum]

I familiar and acquainted with the MJAA definition which is somewhat in line with Reform and/or between Reform and Conservative.

Yeah, I concur.

Is the point of this topic to define what Messianic Judaism is according to the Messianic Judaism forum in Christian Forums?

I have no idea anymore!

 

[yonah_mishael]

"Messianic Judaism" cannot write "formal position papers". It is a movement. And a movement that is far from monolithic, at that. Individuals within the movement voice their opinions as part of the ongoing discussion.

The MJAA and the UMJC have joined together to write formal position papers, to ensure that major issues are dealt with.

Other groups, who meet, and include the leadership of the MJAA, UMJC and AMC as well as other Messianic Jewish groups, have also written and sent out formal position papers or appeals on areas of concern.

Modern Judaism is divided into several “denominations.” In Hebrew, they are called זְרָמִים zramim (plural of זֶ֫רֶם zérem). It literally means “streams,” smaller flows of water that procede out of a larger river. These zramim are called “movements” in English. Thus, we have “the Conservative Movement” (link) and others. The fact that the various groups of Jewish perspectives are classed into different movements does not mean that each movement has not produced its own responsa (תְּשׁוּבוֹ&#1514. I don’t see the connection between MJ being a movement and its not having any authoritative statements of its positions.

If the Conservative Movement did not have its responsa and set of accepted beliefs, it could not be a defined movement. Anyone could declare himself “Conservative” and set up his own synagogue. As it is, we have a defining body of doctrine statements, and we have a central rabbinic authority. Anyone who aspires to be a rabbi of the Conservative Movement must attend a seminary of the movement and receive ordination. If anyone wants to declare the opinions of the movement, they must read the responsa put out by the Rabbinical Assembly.

I see that Messianics have put together such doctrinal authorities for their followers, but as it is there is no standard by which one can say that he is a teacher of Messianic Judaism with authority. It really seems chaotic to an outsider, that the MJAA and other groups are just ignored (for lack of a better word). One can declare himself a “rabbi” without any right to the title and just start teaching and gather a following. Would you say that this is not the case?

And if someone can become a teacher, then surely he can become a lay person, a congregant, an adherent of the religious movement without adhering to any set of specific accepted doctrines. And once such a person has identified himself as “Messianic” even if he hasn’t joined a specific congregation or really studied the issues any deeper than a basic way, he can join this forum and others like it and start proclaiming himself a Messianic. All he has to do is sit back and take in a few key words and soon he’ll be participating just like everyone – though he knows nothing about the religion he’s claiming to belong to. There’s no central belief tying it all together, other than belief in Jesus being a Jewish teacher. I believe that Jesus was a Jewish teacher, and I’m not a Messianic. Could you please define things better??

 

[Qnts2]

In Messianic Judaism, the MJAA and the UMJC, certain things were setup so that Messianic Judaism would remain Jewish in viewpoint.

To remain culturally Jewish, with Jewish roots, certain things need to remain from a Jewish context, and that context would be from a traditional Judaism understanding, where is does not conflict with Yeshua.

Just something to consider. Christianity started out as a Jewish movement. Gentile believers greatly exceeded in numbers the Jewish believers. Obviously, Christianity at the council of Nicea, rejected the Jewish roots. So, it is a Gentile practice. If MJ also is influenced by the larger numbers of Messianic Gentiles, to leave the Jewish culture, MJ will become a Gentile version of what is Jewish, and not a Jewish version.

So, it is going to have to be a careful balance. Will, Messianic Judaism remain Jewish or will it become Gentile. Right now, the UMJC and the MJAA have rules which are meant to keep it from becoming a Gentile group with Gentile ideas of first century practice. At the same time, Messianic Judaism is attempting to adjust to the needs of Messianic Gentiles.

I just wanted to add to this. My family, my late mother and late father, sister, brother-in-law, aunts uncles, nieces and nephews, cousins, etc, are Jewish and practice Judaism. By their language, which is my language, I am not observant. To tell them otherwise would be lying to them. This forums language says that I am Torah observant but the Jewish language says that I am not observant. So, I will not call myself observant, as that is not the Jewish definition of observant. Since Messianic Judaism is based on Jewish culture, I think it is misrepresentative to the Jewish community to claim to be observant. So can Messianic Jews who emphasize being a part of the Jewish community, change definition of terminology which originated and is maintained in the Jewish community without risking the appearance of lying? If we are a part of the Jewish community, while representing Yeshua as members of that community, I see it as a very slippery slope. We will cease to be a Jewish movement if we follow that path.

Added from the UMJC core values:

1. Community relationships

• As a movement for Yeshua within the house of Israel, we stand in solidarity with the larger Jewish community, including the state of Israel. We are committed to the continuity of the Jewish people and to participation in our common tradition.

• As a movement for Yeshua, we also value and affirm our place within the entire community of Messiah and are committed to its genuine unity.

 

[visionary]

In Messianic Judaism, the MJAA and the UMJC, certain things were setup so that Messianic Judaism would remain Jewish in viewpoint.

To remain culturally Jewish, with Jewish roots, certain things need to remain from a Jewish context, and that context would be from a traditional Judaism understanding, where is does not conflict with Yeshua.

Just something to consider. Christianity started out as a Jewish movement. Gentile believers greatly exceeded in numbers the Jewish believers. Obviously, Christianity at the council of Nicea, rejected the Jewish roots. So, it is a Gentile practice. If MJ also is influenced by the larger numbers of Messianic Gentiles, to leave the Jewish culture, MJ will become a Gentile version of what is Jewish, and not a Jewish version.

So, it is going to have to be a careful balance. Will, Messianic Judaism remain Jewish or will it become Gentile. Right now, the UMJC and the MJAA have rules which are meant to keep it from becoming a Gentile group with Gentile ideas of first century practice. At the same time, Messianic Judaism is attempting to adjust to the needs of Messianic Gentiles.

Glad to hear that.. But cultural insulting positions like the one Peter had before his vision need to be reflected in MJ