Messianic Judaism?

[macher]

It is the difference between a Roman version of the Messiah or the Jewish one... not anti-Christ... which is a major part of Messianic Judaism...

Well that depends on which congregation one attends and/or the organization it's under such as MJAA, UMJC etc.

Congregations I'm used too and acquainted with the focus is Yeshua. The focus isn't ethnos but the Logos as the promise Savior who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write. In regards to Torah observance there isn't even any issues on levels of observance or condemnation of no observance. However we do worship on the Sabbath. And there are LOTS of believers who also are members of churches worship with us. Of course at events the food that is served is according to Lev 11 but it's not a focus, it's just the way it is.

 

[visionary]

We should be able to debate the differences without actually teaching against either. We can debate the Trinity without teaching against it - use the same process for other subjects. Job done!

GT is for debating the differences without actually teaching against the other's. Here on MJ we need to be clear that you start with Torah positive and relate everything around it to His Word. It is one thing to believe in Euchrist / Easter /Sunday keeping... it is quite another thing to drag it into a Seder / Passover /Sabbath keeping MJ congregation like this section of CF is suppose represent and talk like it is the same thing. I will not bring up or start any threads on Euchrist /Easter /Sunday keeping... but I sure will cut it to the quick for anyone to bring it in here like it is kosher... I say leave that stuff at the door and enter in supporting God's commands.

 

[visionary]

I would like to second and third and fourth, etc., Phil's observation that the teaching of non-Torah observance is not okay.
As I stated before, and have no problem stating again and echoing him, CF is full of places where teaching that we don't have to abide by Torah is allowed and applauded so please let the Messianic Judaism forum be what it is supposed to be, a forum for the promotion of Torah observance as a set-apart lifestyle for those being saved by the Holy One of Israel.
And I, for one, will begin to hit the report button. It may become very grievous to the mods (especially in the amount of reading that may require) but promotion of non-observance in a Torah-observant forum should not be blatantly tossed around!

Tishri, let me say, I appreciate you jumping in on this. I just regret that it caused you to have to work on a day you may have had off. Makes me appreciate you and what you do all the more. Thank you greatly!!

Amen

 

[macher]

GT is for debating the differences without actually teaching against the other's. Here on MJ we need to be clear that you start with Torah positive and relate everything around it to His Word. It is one thing to believe in Euchrist / Easter /Sunday keeping... it is quite another thing to drag it into a Seder / Passover /Sabbath keeping MJ congregation like this section of CF is suppose represent and talk like it is the same thing. I will not bring up or start any threads on Euchrist /Easter /Sunday keeping... but I sure will cut it to the quick for anyone to bring it in here like it is kosher... I say leave that stuff at the door and enter in supporting God's commands.

What about things that are neither commanded or forbidden? Example we don't celebrate Christmas but I don't have any issues with a believer celebrating Christmas provided it's celebrated in a Christ centered way without the secular stuff. I have to find a sermon so to speak that one of the elders at our congregation did on Christmas, it was very good.

I'd like to say that the teaching of non observance isn't OK and or on similar notes that the Law of Moses is abolished etc. I guess I'm more lax than most here.

 

[visionary]

Well that depends on which congregation one attends and/or the organization it's under such as MJAA, UMJC etc.

Congregations I'm used too and acquainted with the focus is Yeshua. The focus isn't ethnos but the Logos as the promise Savior who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write. In regards to Torah observance there isn't even any issues on levels of observance or condemnation of no observance. However we do worship on the Sabbath. And there are LOTS of believers who also are members of churches worship with us. Of course at events the food that is served is according to Lev 11 but it's not a focus, it's just the way it is.

Same with my congregation... but the members who go to both, do not come in the synagogue preaching sunday keeping.. if you get my drift... it is not for everyone... and if you talk further with those who are doing "sunday" you find that while in the synagogue, they claim that the #1 reason that they go to sunday keeping is to see if there are any other seekers who are hungry for the Word, #2 have relatives who still go there, and #3 they like ____..... but one thing they do not do is come into the synagogue talking that church is better than synagogue teachings.

 

[visionary]

What about things that are neither commanded or forbidden? Example we don't celebrate Christmas but I don't have any issues with a believer celebrating Christmas provided it's celebrated in a Christ centered way without the secular stuff. I have to find a sermon so to speak that one of the elders at our congregation did on Christmas, it was very good.

I'd like to say that the teaching of non observance isn't OK and or on similar notes that the Law of Moses is abolished etc. I guess I'm more lax than most here.

While anti-either will help... pro-other shouldn't be.

 

[macher]

Same with my congregation... but the members who go to both, do not come in the synagogue preaching sunday keeping.. if you get my drift... it is not for everyone... and if you talk further with those who are doing "sunday" you find that while in the synagogue, they claim that the #1 reason that they go to sunday keeping is to see if there are any other seekers who are hungry for the Word, #2 have relatives who still go there, and #3 they like ____..... but one thing they do not do is come into the synagogue talking that church is better than synagogue teachings.

True however what I find here is a lot of contention against those in Christianity whether they come here and preach against or they don't. Which is my point. When someone posts that they observe Sunday as an example without preaching against Saturday.... Other who keep Saturday shouldn't come and preach against those that keep Sunday especially if the person isn't preaching against neither.

I guess I'm defending the Christians here who fall in this category.

 

[Qnts2]

What about things that are neither commanded or forbidden? Example we don't celebrate Christmas but I don't have any issues with a believer celebrating Christmas provided it's celebrated in a Christ centered way without the secular stuff. I have to find a sermon so to speak that one of the elders at our congregation did on Christmas, it was very good.

I'd like to say that the teaching of non observance isn't OK and or on similar notes that the Law of Moses is abolished etc. I guess I'm more lax than most here.

I think the more relaxed view in Messianic Judaism, are the Jewish believers.

I personally did not leave Christianity or a Christian church. I joined in worship with Messianic Judaism, because it is more culturally Jewish. So, I don't have anything against Christian churches, other then that they wanted me to act like a Gentile and abandon Jewish culture. Since most were Gentile, and had a difficult time telling the difference between Jewish culture and being 'bound', I can't really blame them, but also, I am more relaxed in Messianic Judaism. I know born again Christians are brothers (and sisters) in the Lord, and many dearly love Yeshua, seeking to serve Him with all that they are. I certainly can not object to that, but instead encourage and applaud that.

Jewish people in general tend to be more relaxed in religious observance, and less anti-.... on others practices.

On the other side, the more recent Gentiles who have joined Messianic Judaism, aren't joining us, so much as objecting and leaving the church. It is an entirely different view.

 

[mishkan]

True however what I find here is a lot of contention against those in Christianity whether they come here and preach against or they don't. Which is my point. When someone posts that they observe Sunday as an example without preaching against Saturday.... Other who keep Saturday shouldn't come and preach against those that keep Sunday especially if the person isn't preaching against neither.

I guess I'm defending the Christians here who fall in this category.

Why? Do we not believe that following Torah is a "higher calling"?

It seems to me that not passing on Torah to Gentile Christians (one doesn't have to be mean-spirited in doing so) is a form of prejudice. In fact, one might argue that such an attitude is part of what caused the early divergence that led to the atrocities of the crusades and the pogroms--if you teach Christians they have no part in Israel, then they will act like they have no part in Israel.

Better to follow the divine model of bringing Gentiles alongside the Hebrews to hear the Torah with companions. This happened at the first Sinai experience, as well as Sinai II, in Acts 2. Do these texts mean nothing to us as followers of Yeshua?

 

[macher]

I think the more relaxed view in Messianic Judaism, are the Jewish believers.

I personally did not leave Christianity or a Christian church. I joined in worship with Messianic Judaism, because it is more culturally Jewish. So, I don't have anything against Christian churches, other then that they wanted me to act like a Gentile and abandon Jewish culture. Since most were Gentile, and had a difficult time telling the difference between Jewish culture and being 'bound', I can't really blame them, but also, I am more relaxed in Messianic Judaism. I know born again Christians are brothers (and sisters) in the Lord, and many dearly love Yeshua, seeking to serve Him with all that they are. I certainly can not object to that, but instead encourage and applaud that.

Jewish people in general tend to be more relaxed in religious observance, and less anti-.... on others practices.

On the other side, the more recent Gentiles who have joined Messianic Judaism, aren't joining us, so much as objecting and leaving the church. It is an entirely different view.

It's directly related to upbringing and culture. Unbeleiving Jews for the most part are living in Jewish communities. Where I grew up was a primarily Jewish neighborhood in Philly. As times went on non Jews started to move in our neighborhood which there were no issues. When they decorated for Christmas there was no problems with that. The Jews never said 'look at the pagan goyim'. Jews for the most part know what they believe and don't go pointing fingers that Christians are pagan. Now when Jew becomes a believer and assimilates in a Messianic Jewish synagogue the same applies.

 

[visionary]

I still have a hard time understanding what exactly “Torah observance” – and other such terms – really means here. It’s so generic that it doesn’t carry any specific meaning, and I think that’s what causes problems. If someone suddenly claims that keeping the Torah includes cutting the foreskin off of your own son (rather than having a mohel do it, since mohalim are not mentioned in the Torah), would it be “anti-Torah” to state that this is not how it should be done? After all, Abraham (not a doctor) circumcised his own household and Moses himself (not a doctor) cut the foreskin of his son, Gershom. Does opposing oddball practices that have nothing to do with Torah observance itself push someone over the line into “anti-Torah” argumentation?

I have to say – as an outsider – that all of this posturing seems to be due to a weakness in argument. If it were truly demonstrable that the New Testament promoted the observance of Torah, would you need to set up rules that keep people from talking about it? These rules seem to be a safety net to keep honest discussion at bay. That’s my two cents (2¢).

I agree we have to define what Torah observance is at a minimum.

How about Mount Sinai in light of Yeshua and His accomplishments and His lifestyle position as our Rabbi teacher...?? It isn't exactly Judaism personified, but that doesn't mean we can not glean from their centuries of gathered wisdom on the subject and incorporate that which doesn't separate the Jew from the Gentile in the keeping of Torah. The Torah is not just for the Jew but for all nations.

 

[Avodat]

GT is for debating the differences without actually teaching against the other's. Here on MJ we need to be clear that you start with Torah positive and relate everything around it to His Word. It is one thing to believe in Euchrist / Easter /Sunday keeping... it is quite another thing to drag it into a Seder / Passover /Sabbath keeping MJ congregation like this section of CF is suppose represent and talk like it is the same thing. I will not bring up or start any threads on Euchrist /Easter /Sunday keeping... but I sure will cut it to the quick for anyone to bring it in here like it is kosher... I say leave that stuff at the door and enter in supporting God's commands.

You totally misunderstand what I said! Want to try again?

 

[visionary]

But: (1) You are not Torah observant and (2) your beliefs in most matters are very Protestant Christian. You're exactly the type of person he's writing about.

Do you think Jesus would recognize anything of your religious practice? Honestly?

Here is an example of a Jew stating that my Torah observance is not... nor would "Jesus" recognize it as such.... which should be unacceptable... I know where he is coming from.. because that is the way Jew "Judaism" teaches.. but I do not believe MJ should promote it.... By the way the little "Jesus" term thrown in there was a little over the top since I do not see Yeshua in the light of the Roman/Greek "Jesus" projected.. it is like my Messiah has been stripped of His Rabbi robes.

 

[mishkan]

I think the more relaxed view in Messianic Judaism, are the Jewish believers.

Most definitely. For good, or for ill.

I personally did not leave Christianity or a Christian church.

Exactly. Just as you would like me to take your word for things pertaining to Judaism, I can tell you about Christianity from a first-hand perspective.

I joined in worship with Messianic Judaism, because it is more culturally Jewish.

You're welcome. Back in 1981, I was one of those who helped make it so. I cannot tell you the hours spent contending that Messianic shuls should not be merely churches where we put up Jewish art on the walls. I was also one of those arguing that Jewish missions should not entail merely "getting a profession", and then "send them to a local church".

The modern Messianic Jewish leadership that is so highly valued by some strike me as conveniently short-sighted and ungrateful for the level of effort and support they have received from many, many Gentile Messianics.

So, I don't have anything against Christian churches, other then that they wanted me to act like a Gentile and abandon Jewish culture. Since most were Gentile, and had a difficult time telling the difference between Jewish culture and being 'bound', I can't really blame them, but also, I am more relaxed in Messianic Judaism. I know born again Christians are brothers (and sisters) in the Lord, and many dearly love Yeshua, seeking to serve Him with all that they are. I certainly can not object to that, but instead encourage and applaud that.

This is a posture that has existed since before "Messianic Judaism". We have always called it "Hebrew Christianity". That term described Christians who happened to be of Hebraic descent and culture.

Up until around the early 2,000's, MJ was on a track towards developing its own independent theology and culture, apart from the Christian churches. Then it got side-tracked.

Jewish people in general tend to be more relaxed in religious observance, and less anti-.... on others practices.

Not the case in my experiences. More like, people who are uninformed of the difference are more relaxed. People who know, know the differences make a difference.

On the other side, the more recent Gentiles who have joined Messianic Judaism, aren't joining us, so much as objecting and leaving the church. It is an entirely different view.

Yes. You are referring to those who follow, "Hebrew Roots of the Christian Faith"--the Two Housers and Sacred Namers, and contrarians who find paganism behind every tree and under every rock. They are against everything and everybody, Christian, Jewish, or Other.

 

[Qnts2]

GT is for debating the differences without actually teaching against the other's. Here on MJ we need to be clear that you start with Torah positive and relate everything around it to His Word. It is one thing to believe in Euchrist / Easter /Sunday keeping... it is quite another thing to drag it into a Seder / Passover /Sabbath keeping MJ congregation like this section of CF is suppose represent and talk like it is the same thing. I will not bring up or start any threads on Euchrist /Easter /Sunday keeping... but I sure will cut it to the quick for anyone to bring it in here like it is kosher... I say leave that stuff at the door and enter in supporting God's commands.

If by Sunday keeping, you are saying that Sunday is the Sabbath, I would agree as the Sabbath was never changed. However, if the person doesn't view Sunday as the Sabbath, but sees at as good to gather for worship on Sunday, that is truly right. During Temple times and today, in synagogues, there is worship on all 7 days.

Easter is actually celebrating the day of the resurrection, which coincides with the first fruits wave offering. Yes, it was altered by the first council of Nicea to move it away from Passover and make it unrelated to Jewish things, but at the most basic, we both celebrate the same thing.

I have more of an issue theologically with the Eucharist as I understand it as supporting transubstination or consubstination.

But, as long as the person is not arguing against Saturday being the Sabbath, or arguing against Passover while promoting Easter, I see no reason not to discuss either one.

I do believe the forbidden topics should be those that Messianic Judaism has specifically written formal position papers against.

 

[mishkan]

I do believe the forbidden topics should be those that Messianic Judaism has specifically written formal position papers against.

"Messianic Judaism" cannot write "formal position papers". It is a movement. And a movement that is far from monolithic, at that. Individuals within the movement voice their opinions as part of the ongoing discussion.

 

[Qnts2]

Most definitely. For good, or for ill.



Exactly. Just as you would like me to take your word for things pertaining to Judaism, I can tell you about Christianity from a first-hand perspective.



You're welcome. Back in 1981, I was one of those who helped make it so. I cannot tell you the hours spent contending that Messianic shuls should not be merely churches where we put up Jewish art on the walls. I was also one of those arguing that Jewish missions should not entail merely "getting a profession", and then "send them to a local church".

The modern Messianic Jewish leadership that is so highly valued by some strike me as conveniently short-sighted and ungrateful for the level of effort and support they have received from many, many Gentile Messianics.



This is a posture that has existed since before "Messianic Judaism". We have always called it "Hebrew Christianity". That term described Christians who happened to be of Hebraic descent and culture.

Up until around the early 2,000's, MJ was on a track towards developing its own independent theology and culture, apart from the Christian churches. Then it got side-tracked.



Not the case in my experiences. More like, people who are uninformed of the difference are more relaxed. People who know, know the differences make a difference.



Yes. You are referring to those who follow, "Hebrew Roots of the Christian Faith"--the Two Housers and Sacred Namers, and contrarians who find paganism behind every tree and under every rock. They are against everything and everybody, Christian, Jewish, or Other.

I have been a part of Messianic Judaism before 1981, and have always appreciated the contribution of Gentiles in the movement. Without Gentiles who were willing to join us and support us, Messianic Jewish synagogues would not exist.

However, I view the harder anti-Christian stance as more of a Gentile view, and one which should not be held in Messianic Judaism. It is not a Jewish believer viewpoint.

When I first found out Who Jesus really was, the very first idea that came into my head was, how did us Jewish people miss the Messiah. We had the scriptures, the knowledge of a Messiah, the One True God, but we missed the Messiah, while the Gentiles found Him. To me, that is what scriptures said would happen. It is prophesied. The Gentiles would come to the Messiah. So, I hardly expect Gentiles to maintain a Jewish culture since they are not Jewish. The Gentiles maintained the NT scriptures, sharing the gospel, etc etc etc. They had carried on doing the work of Jesus. Not that they were perfect. But, what can I say about their imperfections, when it was clear that the Jewish people were not just imperfect also, but had missed the Messiah.

Nope, it is un-Jewish for a Jewish believer to point fingers at the Christian church, so it would be un-Jewish to do so in an environment which proclaims Jewish roots. Major Messianic Judaism leaders put out a statement against the anti-Christian talk growing among some in the Messianic Judaism movement.

 

[Qnts2]

"Messianic Judaism" cannot write "formal position papers". It is a movement. And a movement that is far from monolithic, at that. Individuals within the movement voice their opinions as part of the ongoing discussion.

The MJAA and the UMJC have joined together to write formal position papers, to ensure that major issues are dealt with.

Other groups, who meet, and include the leadership of the MJAA, UMJC and AMC as well as other Messianic Jewish groups, have also written and sent out formal position papers or appeals on areas of concern.

 

[visionary]

If by Sunday keeping, you are saying that Sunday is the Sabbath, I would agree as the Sabbath was never changed. However, if the person doesn't view Sunday as the Sabbath, but sees at as good to gather for worship on Sunday, that is truly right. During Temple times and today, in synagogues, there is worship on all 7 days.

Easter is actually celebrating the day of the resurrection, which coincides with the first fruits wave offering. Yes, it was altered by the first council of Nicea to move it away from Passover and make it unrelated to Jewish things, but at the most basic, we both celebrate the same thing.

I have more of an issue theologically with the Eucharist as I understand it as supporting transubstination or consubstination.

But, as long as the person is not arguing against Saturday being the Sabbath, or arguing against Passover while promoting Easter, I see no reason not to discuss either one.

I do believe the forbidden topics should be those that Messianic Judaism has specifically written formal position papers against.

Cool And should be noted in our SOP.. Close is really only good in a game of horse shoes and grenades.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I still have a hard time understanding what exactly “Torah observance” – and other such terms – really means here. It’s so generic that it doesn’t carry any specific meaning, and I think that’s what causes problems. If someone suddenly claims that keeping the Torah includes cutting the foreskin off of your own son (rather than having a mohel do it, since mohalim are not mentioned in the Torah), would it be “anti-Torah” to state that this is not how it should be done? After all, Abraham (not a doctor) circumcised his own household and Moses himself (not a doctor) cut the foreskin of his son, Gershom. Does opposing oddball practices that have nothing to do with Torah observance itself push someone over the line into “anti-Torah” argumentation?

I have to say – as an outsider – that all of this posturing seems to be due to a weakness in argument. If it were truly demonstrable that the New Testament promoted the observance of Torah, would you need to set up rules that keep people from talking about it? These rules seem to be a safety net to keep honest discussion at bay. That’s my two cents (2¢).

I agree. In other practical examples, when the repsonse come on certain topics of examination on what actually happened in TOrah - that is all focused on being Torah Positive/TOrah Observant. Noting where others did not do certain things (be it Esther eating the food given to her in Persia/not lining up with Kosher meals while Daniel asked for special food) is NOT a matter of being non-Torah Observant since it's all about of the Torah/God's law.

Talking on how Paul did not advocate for Gentiles to ever be required to keep Kosher within Jewish fellowships or any other synagouge since the Lord did not call them to such is not a matter of being non-Torah observant since the Torah itself stated such directly and forcefullly. What often happens is that honest discussion on what Gentiles are called/meant to do according to Torah and seeing what Yeshua did on a number of occassions is wrongly assumed to be "Torah non-Observance" when it doesn't line up with an ideology of what Torah is - and that's not being honest on what actually is recorded in the Torah itself. If others wish to take issue with that and report, it can just as easily be equally reported that they themselves are not really dealing with the Torah on its own terms and seeing what it defines as positive Torah involvement.