Messianic Judaism?

[Tishri1]

Happy New Year everyone. I agree with you Deb and also believe it is possible to communicate without flaming each other. No one likes to get flamed and if we take a few breaths before replying to a post that seems to push our buttons, even better, say a little prayer before replying, we are much less likely to respond negatively. We can respond respectfully and with love if we try. Admittedly, sometimes it is a challenge.

Agreed and thank you Chaplain for lending your prayers and support here... Just so you all know our Chaplain prays for you all when things get tough like they are at the moment and is a great resource for anyone who needs some support regardless what congregation they attend

I think our Chaplains are the greatest!!!!

 

[Tishri1]

I have our policy admin looking at this now

Tishri - the CF rules & the SOP are very unclear on this teaching / not-teaching thing by 'visitors'. I PM'd you a while ago and explained it to you and were going to bring the SOP into line with the general rules. This hasn't been done. If we get the rules clear there is much less room for argument. Could you please re-read my PM and implement the changes you said you were going to make? This was my PM to you on 12th November that you were going to action because we had a guy claiming he was working according to the SOP - but the CF rules said something very different. In your response to my PM you said you would make the two sets of rules the same - this still is not the case and the confusion between the two makes it incredibly hard to apply either set!

Here are the two sets of rules:

CF Rules:

Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts.
Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

SoP House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here:
http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0
In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.



The section in bold within the SoP House Rules makes it clear that guests may not debate, BUT it ADDS the qualification that they CAN teach as long as it is not against this group's theology. It also says nothing about being restricted to asking questions, although it does add the bit about posting in fellowship.

I hope you can see the difference. It gets confusing for everyone when one person quotes the CF rules which are clear and precise and another poster, who has looked only at the SoP, gets a different set of rules!

 

[Tishri1]

It seems like the rules here are like a protestant sub-group where the protestants have to be in subjection to RCC teachings. We are MJ's. Are our beliefs only considered to be valid if it lines up with "the church<----ambiguous"? That seems to be the attitude with many of the posters that come here to teach other doctrines that oppose the core of our beliefs. It is often tolerated for days on end while the same poster posts video after video in many threads..and many such things that are opposed to Biblical Messianic Judaism.
And, Tishri, thanks for listening to the posters of said issues. I know you are trying to help and I for one, appreciate it.
Temptinfates

Sorry I had to close the thread it was getting away from me and I needed to catch up also sorry I skipped responding to many of your posts but I did read them all very carefully

When I felt positive we had established the main issues and that I was indeed hearing you all correctly, I stopped replying for sake of time as I know you don't want this thread closed for too long

So to respond to this one last post before we move on to communication....

It's not nessessary to agree with all Christian doctrine to post on this site. That is not practical and in fact impossible.... You do need to have a belief in Jesus(Yeshua his Hebrew name) to be MJ and In this forum cannot teach against the nicene creed

Hope that helps.

 

[Tishri1]

Sorry if not everyone was here to express their own issues but please come to the MSC if we haven't addressed a concern you have yet ...

but for time sake we need to move on....

To recap:

No one here feels that one must have the same level of Torah observance or that your observance should be judged acceptable to teach or post in discussions on the Law ( Torah )

But it is apart of MJ , being Torah positive/ Torah observant ,and that is established in the sop , so the resulting question is can someone teach no observance if they have none in a certain area. An example could be in a kosher study thread. Or can one teach the Churches anti Torah doctrines in MJ where the distinction has been MJs are Torah positive not negative ?

The obvious solution by most here on both sides is not to participate in teaching on those types of threads if you are not at least at some level observant of the Torah in discussion there ....an example could be kosher , don't teach against it ,don't teach the anti Torah doctrine some churches teach concerning it and simply refrain from teaching anything if you have no kosher observance

But feel free to add your .02$ if you are observing the biblical Torah commands concerning eating Kosher .

That should calm the fears of those concerned what to do about Torah threads as well as the fears of those feeling judged

No Torah observance or levels are being judge and no one will be allowed to promote anti Torah doctrine

 

[Tishri1]

We still have the matter of many feeling belittled or flamed in here and I would like I continue discussing that

Even in my request for all to not quote others posts and address concerns to me alone , many failed to comply and we won't go into that except I want to understand why that simple request seems soooo hard to do?

Help me understand why it's hard not to only post what your particular concerns are to me ?

We may be able to solve some deep seated problems if you can all answer me that one question

Please try

 

[ContraMundum]

Thanks CM to ask again specifically knowing now they don't object to "some" level of observance but just don't want non observance taught .... How do you feel about that

Hi Tish,

My opinion- "non-observance" should not be taught here. Just respect differing levels and points in personal growth, and it will be ok.

Also do you have any thoughts on folks belittling and flaming ?

We went over the top, didn't we? I'm up for peace and reconciliation.

 

[Avodat]

That is a true mystery. I posted on one such thread, because it was pastorally and ethically wrong to attack and flame a person, apart from what the rules say, and a number of the posters disagreed with me, feeling it was the right thing to do!

I think it boils down to frustration (it does for me) and the fact that it is difficult to not use the first person singular when responding to a post. I know we should address the post content and not the person but although that is great in theory, in practice it is not so easy, especially when the other person addresses you directly in their post(s)! And then there are the posters who simply MUST have the last word and cannot let go in an argument if they are not winning, but that's another story!

 

[ContraMundum]

How about teaching the changes like Euchrist for Seder, Sunday for sabbath, etc.. is that anti-Torah?? not saying it is anti-Christian mind you.

My post was CLEAR, no one should come here and teach against the observances. See me thinks by default you're throwing in something that is against Christians by your comment.

I have to agree. Vis' looks very anti-Christian, but Vis will tell you she doesn't intend it that way. It's all about interpretation. Gosh, I've been misinterpeted so often it stopped me posting for two months earlier this year. It's still happening. I know I am also guilty of misinterpretation, but I do my best.

 

[Avodat]

How about teaching the changes like Euchrist for Seder, Sunday for sabbath, etc.. is that anti-Torah?? not saying it is anti-Christian mind you.

We should be able to debate the differences without actually teaching against either. We can debate the Trinity without teaching against it - use the same process for other subjects. Job done!

 

[Tishri1]

Hi Tish,

My opinion- "non-observance" should not be taught here. Just respect differing levels and points in personal growth, and it will be ok.

Looks like everyone agrees so that's great!!!

We went over the top, didn't we? I'm up for peace and reconciliation.

very cool thanks

 

[Tishri1]

That is a true mystery. I posted on one such thread, because it was pastorally and ethically wrong to attack and flame a person, apart from what the rules say, and a number of the posters disagreed with me, feeling it was the right thing to do!

I think it boils down to frustration (it does for me) and the fact that it is difficult to not use the first person singular when responding to a post. I know we should address the post content and not the person but although that is great in theory, in practice it is not so easy, especially when the other person addresses you directly in their post(s)! And then there are the posters who simply MUST have the last word and cannot let go in an argument if they are not winning, but that's another story!

I know it's hard right? Soooo hard it's best not to even attempt trying to go there with out some guidelines

Try this ....

Find one thing you read that you do agree with and discuss that first to establish rapport with the other posters-when you race out of the starting gate quarreling and ready to demolish the opposition this often only leaves you with a racing heart and a huge head ache

But How bout a heart racing from knowing your actually connecting with that person in agreement first before you try to discuss the opposing topic? .... Try it it feels wonderful!!!

And if you don't see anything initially you can agree on fish for something...

Ask a few questions like "I know we have had disagreements on this subject before but there are other things we do agree with like our love for the Scriptures and Jewish History right? When he am acknowledges a commonality with you just saying something simple like " well we agree on____ and ____ we just need to figure out_____"

Finding anything you have in common will make any disagreement less personal and the discussion of such topics much more enjoyable

What do you guys think about that suggestion? Will it help?
Care to give it a try?

 

[Tishri1]

I have to agree. Vis' looks very anti-Christian, but Vis will tell you she doesn't intend it that way. It's all about interpretation. Gosh, I've been misinterpeted so often it stopped me posting for two months earlier this year. It's still happening. I know I am also guilty of misinterpretation, but I do my best.

A great thing for anyone who is being mis interpreted even on purpose sometimes is to clarify and leave it

" sounds like you are misinterpreting my words let me say it again this way___" or ask them " I hear you saying I believe_____ is that what you thought?"

"I'm Sorry let me clarify, I believe _____, there, that should help now"

 

[Tishri1]

We should be able to debate the differences without actually teaching against either. We can debate the Trinity without teaching against it - use the same process for other subjects. Job done!

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Tishri,

Time to confess. Recently, I did something regrettable. I purposely provoked someone to anger. It happened to one of the members of CF, but not here at CF. It was on a different site. The person in question enjoys a good reputation here, but a few things made me suspicious. I did it because I was sure that the person in question was not being completely honest or sincere. I wasn't disappointed. It turns out that I was right. In their anger, they let their true colors show.

There was some serious accusations made in both directions. There was some name calling. There was some declaration that I found to be most informative. In the end, the person in question declared I was wrong for saying what I did about them and demanded I repent. I said that if I was wrong, that I would be the first to repent and ask them to repeat a positive statement about Torah observance as proof I was wrong. It didn't happen - over there. But it happened over here Tishri, after it was clear which way you were leaning. They declared for Torah observance after innumerable posts in support and agreement with one of the most outspoken critics of Torah observance in this place.

During their rant, I learned that the person is a professional Torah teacher. That means they get paid! Whoo hoo! And they have been Torah observant since childhood. And they have people! I was also informed that they know more Torah than we do. But they would not teach Torah here. They told me to Google rotary engine. Evidently I remind them of something similar to a Wankel (Thanks, I like the pun even if not the implications). BTW, I learned that I get my doctrine from Google and my name is Gomer Pyle too. I'll just add that name to my list of homonyms.

I learned that I was probably laughing uncontrollably in the aisles of a Pentecostal church while this person was learning and observing Torah. I learned that I was a bully on a soapbox and any number of other things not worthy of mentioning. I learned that being goy, I could never rise to the level of understanding that this person has (or their people) and should not even try. Not very surprising.

I thought that I might take a break and do something quite different for a while. So I went to visit my Uncle. He wants me to go with him to his place, his ranch, deep in the East Texas Piney Woods. I agreed. Since he fell a few years back and broke his leg, he will no longer go alone. Can't blame him. He almost lost his favorite boots to the doctor's scissors.

It is also the last week of the normal whitetail hunting season and he hoped to put one or two of Bambi's relatives in the freezer for the year to come. No matter who harvested a deer, we agreed to share. We always do.

We talked and laughed and reminisced about the year past. We meditated on those friends and relations that had passed with the year and on what eventualities the next year might bring. We planned in general detail, the next few days of camping, hunting and manly fellowship then broke for the evening. We meet early in the morning to pack the truck and strike out for a less urban and hopefully less civilized and less structured few days at Deer Camp. I can't sleep for my excitement at the prospect of being in the country. I'll be back for Shabbat, though I will probably observe it wrong. Pray for me. I may be on the floor, laughing uncontrollably, before it is all over.

No matter what the events of the next few days here at CF, I will be absent. I'm sure some will celebrate the loss. So I will rely on my Torah observant brothers and sisters to press the case for a permanent injunction on the teaching of Torah non-observance in any form. I can go to literally thousands of websites that teach non-observance and the entire spectrum of denominational and faith group fora at CF for that. Alas, the one forum that claims Torah observance in it's SOP, the Messianic Judaism faith group here at CF, after years of wrangling, struggling, fighting and voting - still allows for the teaching of non-observance. We need to see this actually end. Not theoretically end. Not agree that it should end. But take concrete action to make sure that it ends and does not come back by fractions and degrees. If we want to discuss varieties of non-observance, it's not like there is a shortage of venues. Nor are there a shortage of wolves in sheep's clothing either.

Be well, be blessed and be proactive. Do not let this small but very vocal minority, steal the gains that we have made for Torah observance. Lives are at stake. Not the temporary life we lead prior to the great resurrection. But the life after we are risen. Do not let your family and friends hear the words, 'Depart from me, you workers of Torahlessness.'. Do not let them be cast into the outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

BTW, I know these warnings to be true. They came from a Jewish Rabbi who was learning and observing Torah long before my first trip to St. Anne's, to Beth Israel, to Beth Yeshurun, to Zion Baptist or to West Bay Assembly. He's my teacher. I like Him very much. Maybe He can learn me to be better in this here Torah stuff.

Shazam!
Gomer

 

[yedida]

I would like to second and third and fourth, etc., Phil's observation that the teaching of non-Torah observance is not okay.
As I stated before, and have no problem stating again and echoing him, CF is full of places where teaching that we don't have to abide by Torah is allowed and applauded so please let the Messianic Judaism forum be what it is supposed to be, a forum for the promotion of Torah observance as a set-apart lifestyle for those being saved by the Holy One of Israel.
And I, for one, will begin to hit the report button. It may become very grievous to the mods (especially in the amount of reading that may require) but promotion of non-observance in a Torah-observant forum should not be blatantly tossed around!

Tishri, let me say, I appreciate you jumping in on this. I just regret that it caused you to have to work on a day you may have had off. Makes me appreciate you and what you do all the more. Thank you greatly!!

 

[yonah_mishael]

I still have a hard time understanding what exactly &#8220;Torah observance&#8221; &#8211; and other such terms &#8211; really means here. It&#8217;s so generic that it doesn&#8217;t carry any speci&#64257;c meaning, and I think that&#8217;s what causes problems. If someone suddenly claims that keeping the Torah includes cutting the foreskin off of your own son (rather than having a mohel do it, since mohalim are not mentioned in the Torah), would it be &#8220;anti-Torah&#8221; to state that this is not how it should be done? After all, Abraham (not a doctor) circumcised his own household and Moses himself (not a doctor) cut the foreskin of his son, Gershom. Does opposing oddball practices that have nothing to do with Torah observance itself push someone over the line into &#8220;anti-Torah&#8221; argumentation?

I have to say &#8211; as an outsider &#8211; that all of this posturing seems to be due to a weakness in argument. If it were truly demonstrable that the New Testament promoted the observance of Torah, would you need to set up rules that keep people from talking about it? These rules seem to be a safety net to keep honest discussion at bay. That&#8217;s my two cents (2¢).

 

[macher]

I still have a hard time understanding what exactly “Torah observance” – and other such terms – really means here. It’s so generic that it doesn’t carry any speci&#64257;c meaning, and I think that’s what causes problems. If someone suddenly claims that keeping the Torah includes cutting the foreskin off of your own son (rather than having a mohel do it, since mohalim are not mentioned in the Torah), would it be “anti-Torah” to state that this is not how it should be done? After all, Abraham (not a doctor) circumcised his own household and Moses himself (not a doctor) cut the foreskin of his son, Gershom. Does opposing oddball practices that have nothing to do with Torah observance itself push someone over the line into “anti-Torah” argumentation?

I have to say – as an outsider – that all of this posturing seems to be due to a weakness in argument. If it were truly demonstrable that the New Testament promoted the observance of Torah, would you need to set up rules that keep people from talking about it? These rules seem to be a safety net to keep honest discussion at bay. That’s my two cents (2¢).

I agree we have to define what Torah observance is at a minimum.

 

[visionary]

I have to agree. Vis' looks very anti-Christian, but Vis will tell you she doesn't intend it that way. It's all about interpretation. Gosh, I've been misinterpeted so often it stopped me posting for two months earlier this year. It's still happening. I know I am also guilty of misinterpretation, but I do my best.

It is the difference between a Roman version of the Messiah or the Jewish one...... which is a major part of Messianic Judaism...

 

[visionary]

Originally Posted by Avodat
We should be able to debate the differences without actually teaching against either. We can debate the Trinity without teaching against it - use the same process for other subjects. Job done!

Why would pro-Torah teaching be against "gentiles are not to keep Torah/law done away with"?? in MJ? Seriously, if the Jews have their way, then MJ will stand for Judiasm is only for Jews.

 

[visionary]

Sorry if not everyone was here to express their own issues but please come to the MSC if we haven't addressed a concern you have yet ...

but for time sake we need to move on....

To recap:

No one here feels that one must have the same level of Torah observance or that your observance should be judged acceptable to teach or post in discussions on the Law ( Torah )

But it is apart of MJ , being Torah positive/ Torah observant ,and that is established in the sop , so the resulting question is can someone teach no observance if they have none in a certain area. An example could be in a kosher study thread. Or can one teach the Churches anti Torah doctrines in MJ where the distinction has been MJs are Torah positive not negative ?

The obvious solution by most here on both sides is not to participate in teaching on those types of threads if you are not at least at some level observant of the Torah in discussion there ....an example could be kosher , don't teach against it ,don't teach the anti Torah doctrine some churches teach concerning it and simply refrain from teaching anything if you have no kosher observance

But feel free to add your .02$ if you are observing the biblical Torah commands concerning eating Kosher .

That should calm the fears of those concerned what to do about Torah threads as well as the fears of those feeling judged

No Torah observance or levels are being judge and no one will be allowed to promote anti Torah doctrine

I like that.