Identity Chrisis: Slander

[macher]

Good resources and thanks for sharing them. I didn't see any issue in what was noted..nor is it really that different from many working in certain 2House circles have noted - be it Jew or Gentile. If the issue is seeing Two-House based on the negatives others are bringing up, of course one doesn't need to support that - but based on what you've been saying and others in differing 2House circles, the negatives do not define things adequately with where others are coming from on the 10 tribes.

Sorry you have to experience that as you have.

Essentially, the issue comes down to the concept of how the variation of Two-House you/others subscribe to is not the same as the variation of it that tends to be more Mainstream/problematic (i.e. Gentiles claiming automatically to be Ephraimites by blood, Claiming the Jewish people aren't special to the Lord, pushing Jews out and not knowing identity in Christ, etc.) - and again, I'm sorry you have had to have the experience as you have so far.

It's not so cut and dry. The Staely video is very contradictory. At the end he with the questions he totally contradicts the teaching part of the video.

What you're suggesting is a lenient 2 House theology which I haven't come across. Read Koniuchowsky writings.

I also support the premise that Messianic Judaism has possibly has caused the indentity crisis among Gentiles. It's not my fault I'm Jewish and that God chose Israel. As Tevye said unquote 'why couldn't You choose someone else?'. It's possible and the more I think about it more likely that the theology makes you lead to believe that you're Israel because of an under lying jealousy which people aren't aware of.

 

[Qnts2]

Good resources and thanks for sharing them. I didn't see any issue in what was noted..nor is it really that different from many working in certain 2House circles have noted - be it Jew or Gentile. If the issue is seeing Two-House based on the negatives others are bringing up, of course one doesn't need to support that - but based on what you've been saying and others in differing 2House circles, the negatives do not define things adequately with where others are coming from on the 10 tribes.

Sorry you have to experience that as you have.

Essentially, the issue comes down to the concept of how the variation of Two-House you/others subscribe to is not the same as the variation of it that tends to be more Mainstream/problematic (i.e. Gentiles claiming automatically to be Ephraimites by blood, Claiming the Jewish people aren't special to the Lord, pushing Jews out and not knowing identity in Christ, etc.) - and again, I'm sorry you have had to have the experience as you have so far.

Two House is definitely different.

Judaism generally believes that the 10 tribes exist, but not all have been located.
Two House believes that the 10 tribes exist, but that they are now Christians.


Judaism believes that the dispersed tribes know who they are (at minimum, they know they are children of Israel).
Two House believes that the tribes do not know who they are, but are actually living as Gentiles. When they were dispersed they got some kind of amnesia and don't know who they are.


Let's take a look at some simple numbers based on Two House theology.

According to Two House theology, the 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom were scattered in small groups, and forgot they were Israel (developed amnesia). They believe they are gentiles, and have been living as Gentiles since the dispersal.

This dispersal took many years, and since this was a many year dispersal, quite a few people escaped to Judea, but that is beside the fact.

To round off, let's say the dispersal occurred around 700 bce. These people according to Two House got amnesia and thought they were Gentiles. They were also dispersed in very small groups so did not stay in communities. As Gentiles, they would not follow any of the laws, and thinking of themselves as Gentiles, would marry Gentiles.

Now let's look at the U.S. law concerning who is a Native American. The U.S. law states a person must be at least 25% Native American to qualify to be a Native American and receive the benefits granted to Native Americans by the government.

1st generation. Native American marries a Caucasian and the resulting child is 50% Native American.

2 generation 50% NA child married a non-NA---- child is 25% Native American

3rd generation 25% Native American marries non-NA --- child is 12.5% Native American

The 4th generation child who is only 12.5% Native American, is no longer considered Native American.

Now let's look at Two House and timing. According to Two House, the 10 tribes thought they were Gentiles, and therefore married Gentiles. It has been about 2700 years. Assuming a 30 year generation, the is 90 generations. In otherwords, the children would be about '1%' child of Israel.

If some of the people lived in Ireland, they would be 99% Irish and 1% child of Israel. (Ireland has had people from supposed 7000 bce so the scattered children of Israel with amnesia were not there alone but would have been out numbered greatly by the existing people)

They have lived in Ireland for almost 2700 years, and would have arrived during the Celtic takeover, and intermarried, and practiced the Irish religion, which was Druid. Christianity did not arrive in Ireland until around 430 ce. So from 700 bce, to 430 ce, the amount of Israelite blood per offspring dwindled thru 36 generations and the people were Druids for 1100 years. Then they converted to be Roman Catholic and have been predominantly Catholic for 1500 years.

Less then 1% Jewish/Israelite blood and practicing the Druid religion and the Catholicism for 2700 years. Denying being Jewish, not following Judaism, not keeping themselves separate (as they think of themselves as Gentiles).

If Two House were true, then those scattered are Gentiles.

But, the Jewish people have been working on locating those who were scattered and isolated for hundreds of years. The groups which have been found all had the teaching of being children of Israel, or a exhiled group. All carried forward certain Mosaic laws, such as not intermarrying, or food restrictions. All were viewed as a separate group of people by the surrounding natives, and often experienced some persecution. All groups evidence DNA from the middle east, and since all traveled with some of the Cohanim, have a percentage of men who evidence the Cohanim haplotype. So, the 10 tribes (and the 2 tribes) meaning all 12 tribes were scattered, knew who they were, continued to practice at least some of the Mosaic law, and verify as Israelite by DNA tests. (Some of the found scattered and isolated groups were also believed to be Judah).

 

[visionary]

It might be a good suggestion at this point to follow Paul's advice...

Acts 18:24 Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures.....27 When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers and sisters encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. When he arrived, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed.

Acts 19:1 [ Paul in Ephesus ] While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples ....

1 Corinthians 1:12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas ”; still another, “I follow Christ.” ....1 Corinthians 3:4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings? 5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow.

Let us just say that Staley has not reached the same conclusions as Messianic Judaism...yet.. and therefore not yet where we are at. ... not saying that he doesn't get unstuck from "name" syndrome, and thus leads his followers further than this signpost he is hanging on to. But people... quit worshipping leaders, they are human and can only lead you as far as they have gone.

 

[Qnts2]

It's not so cut and dry. The Staely video is very contradictory. At the end he with the questions he totally contradicts the teaching part of the video.

What you're suggesting is a lenient 2 House theology which I haven't come across. Read Koniuchowsky writings.

I also support the premise that Messianic Judaism has possibly has caused the indentity crisis among Gentiles. It's not my fault I'm Jewish and that God chose Israel. As Tevye said unquote 'why couldn't You choose someone else?'. It's possible and the more I think about it more likely that the theology makes you lead to believe that you're Israel because of an under lying jealousy which people aren't aware of.

I'm not sure Messianic Judaism has caused an identity crisis among the Gentiles. I believe the identity crisis was already there.

Without a solid understanding of who a person is in Messiah, there already is an identity crisis. With that lack of proper identity, all they need is a bad view that somehow someone else is 'superior' or has something better then them. Of course, there is nothing better the having our identity in Yeshua, meaning, whether Jew or Gentile, the best we can possibly receive and be, is found in Jesus. What Messianic Judaism did was to make Jewish believers more visible. And the Jewish roots more visible. Some Christians without a solid identity, were seeking a different identity then they had, viewing Christianity as nothing special.

If nothing else, the crisis is not because we are Jewish believers, but that some do not know who they are and are seeking an identity outside of Messiah.

In the early days of Messianic Judaism, Gentiles joined us because of a call from God to help Jewish believers and share the gospel with the Jewish people. No jealousy, but rather a calling to 'live', and worship among the Jewish people in our culture.

But, I do agree, the beginning of Two House was due to Gentiles who became jealous and wanted (in their own minds) to find a way to be 'equal' to Jewish believers. That is exactly the motivation Batya Wooten claimed for her search for a theology which would make her part of Israel.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Two House is definitely different. Judaism generally believes that the 10 tribes exist, but not all have been located. Two House believes that the 10 tribes exist, but that they are now Christians.

That again is not what Two House teaches universally, seeing that many have noted plainly that there's a strong possibility that many believers/Christians are potentially of the 10 tribes - whereas others teach all Gentile Christians MUST be Ephraim (error). There is variation - and that cannot be ignored.

Judaism believes that the dispersed tribes know who they are (at minimum, they know they are children of Israel).

Not according to the numerous Jewish rabbis/Jewish groups who've repeatedly noted that some of the 10 tribes have been lost due to assimilation - as it concerns debates over others who rediscovered things or were practicing what was essentially in line with Judaic practice and other didn't do it with that label. It was already shared directly by other Jewish rabbis in various parts of Judaism who've noted that directly and we have to acknowledge that in order to be intellectually honest with what Jews have actually said.

Two House believes that the tribes do not know who they are, but are actually living as Gentiles. When they were dispersed they got some kind of amnesia and don't know who they are.

Actually (as said before), what is said is that many understand who they are while others - be it Jew or Gentile - may not know their identity due to cultural diffusion and assimilation. As said before, one can ask other posters such as Messianic Mommy (Messianic Jew living in Germany and experiencing life in Messianic circles abroad ) or John McKee (whom she has talked to multiple times) and others who've noted just that.

As noted before, MessianicMommy is one of the most informed Messianic Jews around - especially as it concerns Messianic Judaism outside of the U.S (as she lives in Germany) - and even she, although never coming anywhere close to supporting British Israelism or Armstrongism, has worked with Two-House circles of many kinds (noted in #20, #40 #44 , #56 and#117 ) and has never seen anything close to what you've been repeatedly trying to assert about all Two-House. The facts simply do not line up with what you're saying overall, IMHO. John McKee did a good job covering the issue of being grafted into Israel and examining the ways Gentiles can mean various things...outside of simply saying they're not connected to the House of Israel or other Hebrew dynamics. For more, one can go here to the following:

• Tnnonline - Gentile, Term
• Tnnonline - God Fearers
• Tnnonline - CommonWealth of Israel
• Tnnonline - One New Man (One New Humanity)

__________________

Also, as shared before, Messianic Steve Collins is one who has done an excellent job, IMHO, of addressing the matter..as seen in Two-House Theology (Reality) defined and defended

Again, I realize there are many variations of Two House Theology - something which is problematic for many. ..and although there is definately a DOMINANT understanding of those within Two House Messianic organizations which has been damaging to Jewish believers/Gentiles, I very much agree there IS a legitimate Two House scenario that exists and that Gentiles (be it within Messianic Judaism or even Traditional Jewish circles) may represent "Ephraim" or the northern kingdom of Israel that separated from Judah during the reign of King Rehoboam, the son of Solomon. ...or at least be part of Ephraim in many circles due to background. However, I greatly differ with those that present what is actually Replacement Theology under the new name of Two House Theology.

And again, others within the Jewish world have noted the same thing - and this has already been discussed, as there was another thread elsewhere (as seen here) that focused on the issue...and for some that others brought up who teach Two House outside of Messianic Judaism and are Orthodox Jews:

• Yair Davidy
  Rabbi Avraham Feld, also works with Yair Davidy
• Moshiach.com
  Which is an orthodox website detailing even the opinions in the Talmud on the lost tribes of Israel...

With Yair, He is not a rabbi, but he has other Rabbi's backing him, one of those prominent ones is Rabbi Avraham Feld. Outside of that, Brother Boaz from "First Fruits of Zion" also had an excellent article on the issue---for even though he/his ministry do not explictly support Two House Theory, they're neither dogmatically against it since they understand it to be but one eschatological view of the end times amongst many. For more on what he said, one can go online/look up the article he made entitled " Conversation with an Ephraimite.

Let's take a look at some simple numbers based on Two House theology.

According to Two House theology, the 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom were scattered in small groups, and forgot they were Israel (developed amnesia). They believe they are gentiles, and have been living as Gentiles since the dispersal.

This dispersal took many years, and since this was a many year dispersal, quite a few people escaped to Judea, but that is beside the fact.

To round off let's say the dispersal occurred around 700 bce. These people according to Two House got amnesia and thought they were Gentiles. They were also dispersed in very small groups so did not stay in communities. As Gentiles, they would not follow any of the laws, and thinking of themselves as Gentiles, would marry Gentiles.

Again, qualifications are necessary since you're not speaking on Two House overall or universally and what you said isn't what many Two House groups - be it Orthodox Jews or Gentiles - have said at any point. Believing that Gentiles have small groups of others who may've forgotten isn't the same as saying all Gentiles are such - nor is it the case that others saying so in the name of Two House means that it's logical to speak in sweeping terms as if all of them do so. Two House groups of many kinds have already noted directly where many of the 10 Tribes had circles remembering who they were in the Jewish world and thus there's no need talking on discovery.

In the event that what was said was not understandable enough, what I personally try to keep in mind is that with the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, there is merit in believing they have become "the fullness of the nations" ..also known as a “multitude of nations” ( peoples/goyim ) in Genesis 48:19 - as Jacob Prophesied:

Genesis 48:13-19
15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God who hath fed me all my life long unto this day, 16 the angel who hath redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
​

17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father; for this is the first-born; put thy right hand upon his head. 19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: howbeit his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.


​

Seeing the promise for Ephraim to be one from whom "multitudes of nations" would come forth is not really surprising to me.....for as much as others would think it wrong for anything Gentile to be connected to the Seed of Joseph and Jacob, what is interesting is how Jacob's blessing to Ephraim actually compliments what Joseph Himself did growing up. In example, before Joseph stood in Pharaoh’s presence, he shaved (Gen. 41:14), which was culturally very significant. A beard was highly regarded in Israel (cf. 2 Sam. 10:4-5), but in Egypt it was not. Joseph revealed wisdom by adapting to the culture of his day, yet in a way that did not violate any biblical principle.

A beard was really a matter of culture, not of creed. By taking the Egyptian’s language ( Genesis 42:22-24 ), their dress, and even an Egyptian wife (cf. Gen. 41:45), Joseph identified himself with the Egyptians in a way that made his ministry more acceptable, yet without any sacrifice of biblical principle. Thus, if a blessing was given to his son that Gentile culture would be greatly connected to him, Joseph would have been cool with it. For just as God had placed Joseph into slavery within Gentile territory (Egypt) so that he could rise up/eventually save his people and the ENTIRE known world from famine (Genesis 37-50)----having his very family move INTO Gentile territory in order to preserve them---so it could also be said that it was also a blessing that from Ephraim would come many Israelities who'd either go into Gentile nations/flourish there or eventually become the building blocks upon which many Gentile nations would develop. All of it goes right alongside what God already told Abraham in Genesis 12 and Genesis 15 about kings/nations coming forth...

As it concerns Jews from Judah, as much as others may take issue with "Two House Theory", I'd also say that the same dynamics with Gentiles are also possible for them to a good degree. For in their exile to the Babylonian Empire, there were many nations that rose up during that era..with Persia eventually defeating Babylon. And at one point, the Persian Empire was extremely extensive with Jews in all kinds of provinces, ranging from Cush to India. Esther comes to mind as an example of a Jew who was greatly connected to Gentile culture. Fpr the culture she lived in was one of many differing groups connected together in the Persian Empire...and with multi languages and one where Jews were involved in each ( Esther 1:21-22 , Esther 3:11-13, Esther 8:8-10 ). Esther 2:1-18 shows how she chose to learn whatever it was she needed for success---with God blessing it. And by her and her uncle placed in leadership, Jews rose to prominence. This is especially interesting in light of how Jews were already returning to Jerusalem after the 70yrs were up (Ezra 1-4) and some had chosen to stay where they had made homes for themselves/lives

Jeremiah 29:4-6 and Jeremiah 29:28 show this reality...as the Jews were obediant to God's commands to seek the peace of the nation they were in....and as said before with Ezra, specifically Ezra 1:5-6, many Jews choose to remain in Babylon rather than return to their homeland. Persian records actually indicate that many Jews in captivity had accumulated great wealth. ..and the journey back to Jerusalem was difficult, dangerous and expensive (lasting over four months). Travel conditions were poor, Jerusalem and her surrounding countryside were in ruins, and the people living there were hostile.....and for those that the Lord did not move upon to go back to Jerusalem, God used them where they were in exile amongst the nations. Mordecai again comes to mind alongside Esther. The Bible says in Esther 2:5-6 that Mordecai was a Jew who himself (or at least, his family like grandparents, great-grandparents) was carried injto exile when Jerusalem was destroyed. The Jewish population had increased since their exile over 100yrs earlier...and they had been given great freedom and were allowed to tun their own businesses and hold positions of government (Esther 2:19, Daniel 6:3). Mordecai himself, due to the actions of Esther in Esther 9-10 when she saved her people from destruction, eventually rose up to have a great reputation and KEY position of leadership in the Empire.

Thus, those claiming all of those who are Jewish are of no connection with the Gentiles don't have much of a foundation to stand upon. For if it could happen with those Jews listed, why think its impossible with others? As it stands, there are already cases of those having Jewish blood in their viens and yet they NEVER realized it because they didn't study their family history---and in many cases, when studying, they found out that their very last names were changed if coming to other nations not favorable toward Jews so that the family would be protected/able to operate without hassle, thus making it possible for their to be a loss in idenitity in the future.

Just my two cents...

 

[visionary]

I'm not sure Messianic Judaism has caused an identity crisis among the Gentiles. I believe the identity crisis was already there.

Without a solid understanding of who a person is in Messiah, there already is an identity crisis. With that lack of proper identity, all they need is a bad view that somehow someone else is 'superior' or has something better then them. Of course, there is nothing better the having our identity in Yeshua, meaning, whether Jew or Gentile, the best we can possibly receive and be, is found in Jesus. What Messianic Judaism did was to make Jewish believers more visible. And the Jewish roots more visible. Some Christians without a solid identity, were seeking a different identity then they had, viewing Christianity as nothing special.

If nothing else, the crisis is not because we are Jewish believers, but that some do not know who they are and are seeking an identity outside of Messiah.

In the early days of Messianic Judaism, Gentiles joined us because of a call from God to help Jewish believers and share the gospel with the Jewish people. No jealousy, but rather a calling to 'live', and worship among the Jewish people in our culture.

But, I do agree, the beginning of Two House was due to Gentiles who became jealous and wanted (in their own minds) to find a way to be 'equal' to Jewish believers. That is exactly the motivation Batya Wooten claimed for her search for a theology which would make her part of Israel.

What's wrong with "commonwealth of Israel" for the Gentile?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Originally Posted by Qnts2


Now let's look at the U.S. law concerning who is a Native American. The U.S. law states a person must be at least 25% Native American to qualify to be a Native American and receive the benefits granted to Native Americans by the government.

1st generation. Native American marries a Caucasian and the resulting child is 50% Native American.

2 generation 50% NA child married a non-NA---- child is 25% Native American

3rd generation 25% Native American marries non-NA --- child is 12.5% Native American

The 4th generation child who is only 12.5% Native American, is no longer considered Native American.

Not how Native American culture works - and as said before, the concept of One Drop rule was very present in the U.S for years, with many Native American groups (not the U.S which already harmed it multiple times in differing rulings) have already said directly that anyone with Native blood in them - should they adopt themselves into the tribe even when they may've forgotten to practice - is still a Native American. Forgetting your heritage doesn't imply one loses it...nor does not being active in it make one not a Native American anymore.

First Nations Groups/Native Americans have the concept of others being adopted into tribes/being considered to be fully amongst the people...although even this is something that does not always play out without flaw since many in differing tribes often had issue with others due to their ancestry from others outside the tribe...whereas others had no issue acknowledging where one could be BlackFoot and yet have Caucasian blood in them. One of the best reads I was able to check out on the issue years ago is entitled "Black Indians" by William Lorenz Katz ----and for more info, one can go online/investigate an article under the name of "William Loren Katz | Black Indians. Black West." () and "Black Indians by William Loren Katz" () The book itself goes into great depth discussing the issues of what went down for those who were products of mixed marriages/alliances between American Indians and Blacks.....and it also talked on why it seemed that blacks and Native Americans often were quick to form alliances more in ways that amazed the Europeans coming to conquer them...even though there were many battles between the groups even after intermixing (more shared here at "Indivisible: African Native American Lives in the Americas" ( ) ).

This happened often in the cultures surrounding the Hebrews during Jacob's day. With the tribe of Simeon, this seemed to play out since they were absored into the tribe of Judah/adopted at one point---and yet they also got adopted into other tribes as well.To give more thoughts, on what occurred with Simeon's fate, there was a book I read earlier last year (recommended by another Messianic Jew) entitled "Arabs in the Shadow of Israel: The Unfolding of God's Prophetic Plan for Ishmael's Line" by Dr.Tony Maalouf, it was very insightful studying up on the bloodlines that the scriptures note---and showing how many of them blended (such as Ishmael's line and Easu's as well, for example) and why they often did so through the act of adopting members into the tribe....and making them one of the people just as it often occurred in Middle-Eastern/African culture. More on what he said on that can be seen here in #8 and here, including discussing where other tribes from the Israelite culture adopted others/blended for the sake of survival (as what occurred with the line of Simeon).

Now let's look at Two House and timing. According to Two House, the 10 tribes thought they were Gentiles, and therefore married Gentiles. It has been about 2700 years. Assuming a 30 year generation, the is 90 generations. In otherwords, the children would be about '1%' child of Israel.

If some of the people lived in Ireland, they would be 99% Irish and 1% child of Israel. (Ireland has had people from supposed 7000 bce so the scattered children of Israel with amnesia were not there alone but would have been out numbered greatly by the existing people)


They have lived in Ireland for almost 2700 years, and would have arrived during the Celtic takeover, and intermarried, and practiced the Irish religion, which was Druid. Christianity did not arrive in Ireland until around 430 ce. So from 700 bce, to 430 ce, the amount of Israelite blood per offspring dwindled thru 36 generations and the people were Druids for 1100 years. Then they converted to be Roman Catholic and have been predominantly Catholic for 1500 years.

Less then 1% Jewish/Israelite blood and practicing the Druid religion and the Catholicism for 2700 years. Denying being Jewish, not following Judaism, not keeping themselves separate (as they think of themselves as Gentiles).

If Two House were true, then those scattered are Gentiles.

In whatever circles certain Gentiles had Jewish ancestry where assimilation harmed a lot of things, many scattered would have been Gentiles....although again, Two House doesn't say But, the Jewish people have been working on locating those who were scattered and isolated for hundreds of years.

The groups which have been found all had the teaching of being children of Israel, or a exhiled group. All carried forward certain Mosaic laws, such as not intermarrying, or food restrictions. All were viewed as a separate group of people by the surrounding natives, and often experienced some persecution

And many - as numerous Jewish rabbis have pointed out - recieved flack from other Jewish groups who were claiming they didn't pass their own tests of DNA to prove they were Jewish. It's one of the central reasons why DNA testing alone can be fruitless when it comes to establishing who is or isn't "in" - and the Ethiopian Jews and Falasha have experienced that in spades when it comes to others still noting they walked according to Torah - but don't deserve to be seen as Jewish. As said before in other conversation, this happens all the time with Jewish groups around the world. .. like someone seeing another who's a Nigerian Jew and acknowleding Nigerian culture present while seeing their Jewishness as well, people studying the Ibos of Nigeria, Nigerians of Jewish orgin are fascinating people. in the ways their Jewish culture has been shaped/developed within a Nigerian context....and seeing how they go about things..Jews of Nigeria 2 - Shabbat Service 1ab - YouTube . Dr.Michael Brown did an excellent review on the subject not too long ago in his article entitled Who is a Jew? - Questions of Ethnicity Religion and Identity.

Other Jews have had the same experience, as it concerns what happens when many go underground and may end up losing some aspects - even though there can be division on the matter, with certain Jewish communities saying some need "recoversion" to Judaism while others say that's not their business to say such when many of the practices of modern Jewish communities that are used to evaluate other groups aren't in line with the Biblical history of the Hebrew people anyhow - and other groups ended up keeping certain traits better than others. One basic example is the Yemen Jews. The Yemen Jews do eat Kosher Locusts and have kept track of their records being in line with the Torah (several kinds of locusts) since antiquity - although other Jewish communities deem them as not being Jewish in their actions due to their views that they are not truly accurate..as the Ashekenazi have often said. And thus, there's friction between groups (as shared before here )

And on where other Jewish communities have had struggle due to having to adapt to certain realities,

Crypto Jews (hidden Jews) | Beth HaDerech; Messianic Jewish Congregation, Toronto, Canada

You might find Dr. Denis I. Otero, PhD., Olive Tree Fellowship, Albuquerque, NM interesting. He is a descendent of a Crypto family as well as the anusim(forced converts). Dr. Dennis of "Torah Unleashed" is an dynamic person on many levels...and it is interesting to consider the myraid of factors that influenced other groups in the past to become Crypto. Was once studying the issue of groups forced to go underground to practice their faith---and it has been interesting to see how many strains/variations there are with others having the same experience..such as groups like Kakure Kirishtan , hidden Japanese believers in Japan who went underground after MASSIVE persecution began against believers---and have actually developed into something radically different from those who helped in their foundations since they were cut off from access to the outside world for centuries....and for more, I tried to discuss this here in #32 /in a thread entitled "Zen" in place of "Zion": Is Crypto-Christianity justified within Catholicism?

WIth what happened with the Crypto-Jews in New Mexico, there's a book that did an excellent job on the subject entitled A History of the Jews in New Mexico

Very good info. Also, as it concerns the Maranos who came with the Spanish and may have settled in South and Central America as well as SW United States (with some folks in those areas retaining vestigal elements of Judaism from that period), there was a specific book I was able to come across that has been very intriguing/a good study--as seen in the book "To the end of the earth: a history of the crypto-Jews of New Mexico". Surprising to see how other New Mexican Hispanics have recently begun to explore their families' customs and are only beginning to examine their possible blended lineage....

There are many symbols--gravesites, artifacts, and icons--that might point toward the presence of the descendants of crypto-Jews who came to the New World. There has recently been a renewed interest in crypto-Jews, as DNA tests have revealed the Jewish heritage of a number of Hispanic New Mexicans.

The ways that Jews and other cultures mix together is always amazing to behold---like taking a plant and placing it in the soil of whatever land it's in and seeing it grow naturally in harmony with the environment rather than coming at things with a POTTED Plant/putting that on the ground. Another sister in the Lord noted something similar occurring that happened with Hispanic Jews adapting---as seen here in discussion on Indian Jews.

As she said there:

Another branch of the Messianic Jewish faith flourished in South-West India for about 1400 years, in the Malayali-speaking state of Kerala.

Jews and Hindus already living in the area were evangelized by St. Thomas, and their customs, worship, and identity was uniquely Judeo-Christian.

NSC NETWORK – Lifestyle of Kerala Syrian Christians

NSC NETWORK – Some of the traditions and rituals among the Syrian Christians of Kerala

These Christians called themselves "Nasrani" or roughly "Nazarenes", worshipped in Aramaic, celebrated the Eastern Syriac liturgy on Saturday, kept kosher, and had Jewish names like Yakob, Simon, Thoma, Yohanan, etc.

Later contact with Portuguese missionaries greatly disrupted their traditions and practices, as many were converted into the Catholic Church, while others sought help from and joined the Syriac Orthodox Church.

Today, the St. Thomas Christians are Assyrian Chruch of the East, Oriental Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant.

One prominent group beingBe'chol Lashon | Advocating for the Growth and Diversity of the Jewish People and another beingJews of Color - The Jewish Channel -- Connect With Your Culture Jews of Color Celebrate Jewish Diversity |and Welcoming Jews of Color | Jewlicious

 

[visionary]

That again is not what Two House teaches universally, seeing that many have noted plainly that there's a strong possibility that many believers/Christians are potentially of the 10 tribes - whereas others teach all Gentile Christians MUST be Ephraim (error). There is variation - and that cannot be ignored.
Not according to the numerous Jewish rabbis/Jewish groups who've repeatedly noted that some of the 10 tribes have been lost due to assimilation - as it concerns debates over others who rediscovered things or were practicing what was essentially in line with Judaic practice and other didn't do it with that label. It was already shared directly by other Jewish rabbis in various parts of Judaism who've noted that directly and we have to acknowledge that in order to be intellectually honest with what Jews have actually said.
Actually (as said before), what is said is that many understand who they are while others - be it Jew or Gentile - may not know their identity due to cultural diffusion and assimilation. As said before, one can ask other posters such as Messianic Mommy (Messianic Jew living in Germany and experiencing life in Messianic circles abroad ) or John McKee (whom she has talked to multiple times) and others who've noted just that.


AS said before,

As noted before, MessianicMommyis one of the most informed Messianic Jews around - especially as it concerns Messianic Judaism outside of the U.S (as she lives in Germany) - and even she, although never coming anywhere close to supporting British Israelism or Armstrongism, has worked with Two-House circles of many kinds (noted in #20, #40 #44 , #56 and#117 ) and has never seen anything close to what you've been repeatedly trying to assert about all Two-House. The facts simply do not line up with what you're saying overall, IMHO. John McKee did a good job covering the issue of being grafted into Israel and examining the ways Gentiles can mean various things...outside of simply saying they're not connected to the House of Israel or other Hebrew dynamics. For more, one can go here to the following:

• Tnnonline - Gentile, Term
• Tnnonline - God Fearers
• Tnnonline - CommonWealth of Israel
• Tnnonline - One New Man (One New Humanity)

__________________


Messianic Steve Collins is one who has done an excellent job, IMHO, of addressing the matter..as seen in Two-House Theology (Reality) defined and defended</DIV>

As said before, I realize there are many variations of Two House Theology - something which is problematic for many. ..and although there is definately a DOMINANT understanding of those within Two House Messianic organizations which has been damaging to Jewish believers/Gentiles, I very much agree there IS a legitimate Two House scenario that exists and that Gentiles (be it within Messianic Judaism or even Traditional Jewish circles) may represent "Ephraim" or the northern kingdom of Israel that separated from Judah during the reign of King Rehoboam, the son of Solomon. ...or at least be part of Ephraim in many circles due to background. However, I greatly differ with those that present what is actually Replacement Theology under the new name of Two House Theology.

And again, others within the Jewish world have noted the same thing - and this has already been discussed, as there was another thread elsewhere (as seen here) that focused on the issue...and for some that others brought up who teach Two House outside of Messianic Judaism and are Orthodox Jews:

• Yair Davidy
  Rabbi Avraham Feld, also works with Yair Davidy
• Moshiach.com
  Which is an orthodox website detailing even the opinions in the Talmud on the lost tribes of Israel...

With Yair, He is not a rabbi, but he has other Rabbi's backing him, one of those prominent ones is Rabbi Avraham Feld. Outside of that, Brother Boaz from "First Fruits of Zion" also had an excellent article on the issue---for even though he/his ministry do not explictly support Two House Theory, they're neither dogmatically against it since they understand it to be but one eschatological view of the end times amongst many.
​

Again, qualifications are necessary since you're not speaking on Two House overall or universally and what you said isn't what many Two House groups - be it Orthodox Jews or Gentiles - have said at any point. Believing that Gentiles have small groups of others who may've forgotten isn't the same as saying all Gentiles are such - nor is it the case that others saying so in the name of Two House means that it's logical to speak in sweeping terms as if all of them do so. Two House groups of many kinds have already noted directly where many of the 10 Tribes had circles remembering who they were in the Jewish world and thus there's no need talking on discovery.

I suppose someone has to think that there is a spot in prophecy that they are identified as a group to which they have a rightful place in the grand scheme of things. It is hard to relate to that which you can not identify with.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It's not so cut and dry. .

Yet it is somehow cut and dry saying all Two House believes Gentiles HAVE to be Ephraim or that Two House are all anti-semitics? Sorry - but I don't think the language of "cut and dry" is really consistently applied since there've already been cut/dry comments given from the other end.

The Staely video is very contradictory

Indeed - and I've already noted that multiple times ( #81 being an example ) - in addition to noting that the video is NOT the standard for what all Two House teaches if one is being honest with material. I can look for ONE Law groups ranting (as some sadly do here) on how others are not Torah Observant (In their view) for saying Gentiles were not required to act the same as Jewish people in all things - be it Michael Rood or Tim Hegg or a number of others who were pointed out as belonging to forums on the fringe of Messianic Judaism - but that doesn't mean that the language of One Law is never appropriate...nor does it mean that all Gentiles themselves and Jews accepting One Law do the errors of others.

What you're suggesting is a lenient 2 House theology which I haven't come across. Read Koniuchowsky writings.

I would suggest actually going back and dealing with what others have noted. Deal with Yair Davidy. Deal with Steve Collins. Deal with John McKee (or ask Messianic Mommy of the forum, who has talked to John many times) and deal with other Orthodox Jews who've advocated supported for other forms of Two House.

It's nothing hidden nor is it anything really new. It's simply avoided many times.

I also support the premise that Messianic Judaism has possibly has caused the indentity crisis among Gentiles. It's not my fault I'm Jewish and that God chose Israel. As Tevye said unquote 'why couldn't You choose someone else?'. It's possible and the more I think about it more likely that the theology makes you lead to believe that you're Israel because of an under lying jealousy which people aren't aware of

There also the reality of what happens when it comes to some of the foolishness of others saying that Gentiles MUST be the same as Jews in practice if speaking of the CommonWealth of Israel. This is advocated (as noted elsewhere ) by others trying to push One Law in the name of "Torah Observance"/claims that Gentiles who are Christians or in the CHurch are not honoring Israel - and it's manifested on the other side by folks in Two House who often came directly OUT of One Law groups trying to say that there should be not distinction on things. More was shared explictly on the issue in #176 when talking on the issue of how One Law being pushed by many Jews and Gentiles - in the name of being Israel focused - has led to the natrual conclusion of what happens in problematic circles of Two House where fighting over identity with Israel occurs. And there's also the issue of what happens with Jews (sadly) when many ignore what other Messianic Jews have noted on Gentiles being connected to Israel just as much as they are because of their lifestyle/God's working in their lives (more shared here and here )...and being quick to assume that others are "jealous" when the reality is that the reaction is based more so on fear of being replaced.

Some who identify with Israel aren't concerned with Jealously anymore than Ruth was as a Moabite wanting to join because she was called to live out what she knew in relationship to God's people - and others do so due to seriously wanting to discover their roots. Those who are open to aspects of Two House have often noted that it's wrong to say the Jewish people are Jewish and it'd be error to ignore that in saying they just want to replace them. Talked with many on the issue before, so it hits close to home.

 

[pat34lee]

It's not so cut and dry. The Staely video is very contradictory. At the end he with the questions he totally contradicts the teaching part of the video.

What you're suggesting is a lenient 2 House theology which I haven't come across. Read Koniuchowsky writings.

I also support the premise that Messianic Judaism has possibly has caused the indentity crisis among Gentiles. It's not my fault I'm Jewish and that God chose Israel. As Tevye said unquote 'why couldn't You choose someone else?'. It's possible and the more I think about it more likely that the theology makes you lead to believe that you're Israel because of an under lying jealousy which people aren't aware of.

Would you and Qnts please read one or both of the following links so we can at least start with a similar concept of 2 house?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...p9DT1DxMR5Cr4Vgiz2Gaw&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.eWU
(Posted by Easy G)

Two House theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[macher]

Would you and Qnts please read one or both of the following links so we can at least start with a similar concept of 2 house?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...p9DT1DxMR5Cr4Vgiz2Gaw&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.eWU
(Posted by Easy G)

Two House theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ok so you don't want to base it on the video you posted? We can forget about the video?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I wasn't saying he would have an issue, I was just saying that when he referred to the House of Israel, it was by tribe and all 12 are mentioned as to what would befall them in the "Last Days".

.

Got ya. My bad for misunderstanding.

 

[pat34lee]

Ok so you don't want to base it on the video you posted? We can forget about the video?

The video was less to show what 2 house is about than the slander against him over things that he did not say. Staley no more represents all 2 house than the MJAA or MBI represent all messianics. Other 2 house teachers include Monte Judah, Eddie Chumney, and Rico Cortes, and they all teach from different perspectives.

 

[Qnts2]

Not how Native American culture works - and as said before, the concept of One Drop rule was very present in the U.S for years, with many Native American groups (not the U.S which already harmed it multiple times in differing rulings) have already said directly that anyone with Native blood in them - should they adopt themselves into the tribe even when they may've forgotten to practice - is still a Native American. Forgetting your heritage doesn't imply one loses it...nor does not being active in it make one not a Native American anymore.

First Nations Groups/Native Americans have the concept of others being adopted into tribes/being considered to be fully amongst the people...although even this is something that does not always play out without flaw since many in differing tribes often had issue with others due to their ancestry from others outside the tribe...whereas others had no issue acknowledging where one could be BlackFoot and yet have Caucasian blood in them. One of the best reads I was able to check out on the issue years ago is entitled "Black Indians" by William Lorenz Katz ----and for more info, one can go online/investigate an article under the name of "William Loren Katz | Black Indians. Black West." () and "Black Indians by William Loren Katz" () The book itself goes into great depth discussing the issues of what went down for those who were products of mixed marriages/alliances between American Indians and Blacks.....and it also talked on why it seemed that blacks and Native Americans often were quick to form alliances more in ways that amazed the Europeans coming to conquer them...even though there were many battles between the groups even after intermixing (more shared here at "Indivisible: African Native American Lives in the Americas" ( ) ).

Dr.Michael Brown did an excellent review on the subject not too long ago in his article entitled Who is a Jew? - Questions of Ethnicity Religion and Identity.

I am aware that Native American groups do not necessarily agree with the definition as given by the U.S.

And as far as those returning, that really is a different topic.

Michael Browns article is not really to deal with Two House, but instead, is in response, Jew to other Jews, concerning whether a Messianic Jew is Jewish.

Let me quote from Michael Browns article you said is excellent.

Historical Background to the Term &#8220;Jew&#8221;
The term Jew is derived from the Hebrew yehûdî, and while it is common to speak of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses as Jews, this is historically anachronistic, since the first recorded occurrence of the word yehûdî is found in biblical books dating to the 8th-7th centuries BCE, roughly 500 years after the time of Moses and more than 1000 years after the time of Abraham.
The historical origin of the term yehûdî is as follows: The patriarch Jacob, whose name was later changed to Israel, had twelve sons, one of whom was named Judah (Hebrew yehûdâ). These sons then became the eponymous ancestors of the twelve tribes of Israel, and it was the tribe of Judah from which King David hailed. Thus, in its earliest form, a yehûdî (=Judahite; Judean) would have been a member of the tribe of yehûdâ (Judah), although to date, this usage is not attested. David, like Saul before him and Solomon after him, reigned over a united kingdom consisting of the twelve tribes of Israel. However, in the days of David&#8217;s grandson Rehoboam (approximately 931-914), the kingdom divided in two, with the northern kingdom, consisting of ten tribes, being called Israel, while the southern kingdom, consisting of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, was called Judah.19 The inhabitants of this southern kingdom became known as yehûdîm, Judeans, and this usage is attested in the Hebrew Scriptures (see, e.g., 2 Kings 16:6).
In the year 721 BCE, the northern kingdom of Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians, with the ten tribes greatly decimated, sent into exile, and, to a large extent, lost to history (hence the concept of the &#8220;Ten Lost Tribes&#8221. Some of the Israelites, however, fled to the south, becoming part of the kingdom of Judah. In the year 586 BCE, the city of Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians and many of the yehûdîm were exiled to Babylon. When the exiles returned to their homeland approximately 50 years later, it was now under Persian control and called the province of Judah and its inhabitants were identified as &#8220;Judeans,&#8221; although their heritage as &#8220;Israelites&#8221; was certainly not forgotten. It is this term, yehûdîm, Judeans, which ultimately became rendered &#8220;Jews&#8221; in common English usage.
At this point, two observations should be made: First, the term &#8220;Jew&#8221; comprehended the totality of the people, regardless of tribal origin. (In other words, an Israelite from one of the northern tribes who had become part of the kingdom or province of Judah was considered a Jew.) Second, &#8220;Jew&#8221; was primarily the ethnic designation of the chosen people, since it continued to describe this covenant people after many of them had forsaken the Sinai covenant, fallen into idolatry, and departed from the faith. Yet the people were still called Jews &#8211; unbelieving Jews, apostate Jews, faithless Jews, but still Jews.20

Dr. Brown is saying the same thing I have said repeatedly. Jewish means all 12 tribes. The origin comes from those living in Judea, no matter which tribe, so all 12 tribes are called Jewish. Jew is a synonym of children of Israel.

Another segment of the paper from Dr. Brown

Pragmatic Thoughts on Jewish Identity
It should be readily apparent from this paper that the question of Jewish identity, defined on ethnic grounds alone, is not particularly complex or difficult. Thus, someone born of a Jewish mother (for the question of a Jewish father, see immediately below) could not cease to be a Jew &#8211; regardless of belief or practice &#8211; anymore than a human could cease to be a human.43 On the other hand, this does not guarantee endless generations of Jews who are Jews by bloodline only. To the contrary, once a Jew breaks ties with his people through assimilation and intermarriage, Jewish identity tends to be completely lost over the course of three or four generations. Thus, some degree of attachment to one&#8217;s Jewish identity is a sine qua non for the continuity of the Jewish people. It can therefore be argued on practical and historical grounds that any child born of a Jewish mother (or father, a position supported by scriptural precedent) who recognizes himself or herself to be Jewish and who affirms his or her connection to the Jewish people must be recognized as a Jew, while those Jews who reject such identification will soon sever themselves from their people over a process of time.


And this again is what I have been saying. A person who is Jewish (all 12 tribes), the future generations can cease to be Jewish. And this is the example I put forth, based on the Ephraimite Two House argument. That a Jewish person who assimilates, and intermarries, denying being Jewish (Two House says they thought they were Gentile), after 4 generations, ceases to be Jewish.

I recognized the same thing, which is why I used a 4 generation example and then went on to the reality of the number of generations based on Two House theology. If Two House theology is even remotely true, then the scattered tribes ceased to be children of Israel a long time ago.

So, what happens to a person who is say 1% Jewish blood, and grew up for multiple generations as a Gentile who now wants to be recognized as Jewish/child of Israel? Well, they are now not Jewish, so they would need to convert to be Jewish/child of Israel.

If Two House simply believed that there are 10 tribes scattered, who will return, there would be no issue, but Two House inserts much more. Two House emphasizes the term Ephraim, misusing the term, and at the basics of Two House, claims that Christians/Messianic Gentiles are Ephraim.

From a paper by Batya Wooten, Batya claims they need to help restore the rightful place of the house of Joseph/Ephraim.

However, just as we believe the promises to Judah are literal, so we believe the promises to Joseph are literal. And so we seek to restore that which was once lost to Ephraim, which is the truth about his own Israelite roots.


For a Gentile, this makes little sense, as it is the Jewish people who are seeking out to identify and bring home the scattered of Israel. It is not something which Two House is actively working on. So, to Two House, the actual theology goes beyond the idea that the 10 tribes are scattered, but personalizes this message. It has always been about the position of Jew and Gentile together, which is the unity of the believers, while Israel and the 12 tribes are a different group, not the church.

 

[ContraMundum]

I am aware that Native American groups do not necessarily agree with the definition as given by the U.S.

And as far as those returning, that really is a different topic.

Michael Browns article is not really to deal with Two House, but instead, is in response, Jew to other Jews, concerning whether a Messianic Jew is Jewish.

Let me quote from Michael Browns article you said is excellent.

Historical Background to the Term “Jew”
The term Jew is derived from the Hebrew yehûdî, and while it is common to speak of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses as Jews, this is historically anachronistic, since the first recorded occurrence of the word yehûdî is found in biblical books dating to the 8th-7th centuries BCE, roughly 500 years after the time of Moses and more than 1000 years after the time of Abraham.
The historical origin of the term yehûdî is as follows: The patriarch Jacob, whose name was later changed to Israel, had twelve sons, one of whom was named Judah (Hebrew yehûdâ). These sons then became the eponymous ancestors of the twelve tribes of Israel, and it was the tribe of Judah from which King David hailed. Thus, in its earliest form, a yehûdî (=Judahite; Judean) would have been a member of the tribe of yehûdâ (Judah), although to date, this usage is not attested. David, like Saul before him and Solomon after him, reigned over a united kingdom consisting of the twelve tribes of Israel. However, in the days of David’s grandson Rehoboam (approximately 931-914), the kingdom divided in two, with the northern kingdom, consisting of ten tribes, being called Israel, while the southern kingdom, consisting of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, was called Judah.19 The inhabitants of this southern kingdom became known as yehûdîm, Judeans, and this usage is attested in the Hebrew Scriptures (see, e.g., 2 Kings 16:6).
In the year 721 BCE, the northern kingdom of Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians, with the ten tribes greatly decimated, sent into exile, and, to a large extent, lost to history (hence the concept of the “Ten Lost Tribes”). Some of the Israelites, however, fled to the south, becoming part of the kingdom of Judah. In the year 586 BCE, the city of Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians and many of the yehûdîm were exiled to Babylon. When the exiles returned to their homeland approximately 50 years later, it was now under Persian control and called the province of Judah and its inhabitants were identified as “Judeans,” although their heritage as “Israelites” was certainly not forgotten. It is this term, yehûdîm, Judeans, which ultimately became rendered “Jews” in common English usage.
At this point, two observations should be made: First, the term “Jew” comprehended the totality of the people, regardless of tribal origin. (In other words, an Israelite from one of the northern tribes who had become part of the kingdom or province of Judah was considered a Jew.) Second, “Jew” was primarily the ethnic designation of the chosen people, since it continued to describe this covenant people after many of them had forsaken the Sinai covenant, fallen into idolatry, and departed from the faith. Yet the people were still called Jews – unbelieving Jews, apostate Jews, faithless Jews, but still Jews.20

Dr. Brown is saying the same thing I have said repeatedly. Jewish means all 12 tribes. The origin comes from those living in Judea, no matter which tribe, so all 12 tribes are called Jewish. Jew is a synonym of children of Israel.

Another segment of the paper from Dr. Brown

Pragmatic Thoughts on Jewish Identity
It should be readily apparent from this paper that the question of Jewish identity, defined on ethnic grounds alone, is not particularly complex or difficult. Thus, someone born of a Jewish mother (for the question of a Jewish father, see immediately below) could not cease to be a Jew – regardless of belief or practice – anymore than a human could cease to be a human.43 On the other hand, this does not guarantee endless generations of Jews who are Jews by bloodline only. To the contrary, once a Jew breaks ties with his people through assimilation and intermarriage, Jewish identity tends to be completely lost over the course of three or four generations. Thus, some degree of attachment to one’s Jewish identity is a sine qua non for the continuity of the Jewish people. It can therefore be argued on practical and historical grounds that any child born of a Jewish mother (or father, a position supported by scriptural precedent) who recognizes himself or herself to be Jewish and who affirms his or her connection to the Jewish people must be recognized as a Jew, while those Jews who reject such identification will soon sever themselves from their people over a process of time.


And this again is what I have been saying. A person who is Jewish (all 12 tribes), the future generations can cease to be Jewish. And this is the example I put forth, based on the Ephraimite Two House argument. That a Jewish person who assimilates, and intermarries, denying being Jewish (Two House says they thought they were Gentile), after 4 generations, ceases to be Jewish.

I recognized the same thing, which is why I used a 4 generation example and then went on to the reality of the number of generations based on Two House theology. If Two House theology is even remotely true, then the scattered tribes ceased to be children of Israel a long time ago.

So, what happens to a person who is say 1% Jewish blood, and grew up for multiple generations as a Gentile who now wants to be recognized as Jewish/child of Israel? Well, they are now not Jewish, so they would need to convert to be Jewish/child of Israel.

If Two House simply believed that there are 10 tribes scattered, who will return, there would be no issue, but Two House inserts much more. Two House emphasizes the term Ephraim, misusing the term, and at the basics of Two House, claims that Christians/Messianic Gentiles are Ephraim.

From a paper by Batya Wooten, Batya claims they need to help restore the rightful place of the house of Joseph/Ephraim.

However, just as we believe the promises to Judah are literal, so we believe the promises to Joseph are literal. And so we seek to restore that which was once lost to Ephraim, which is the truth about his own Israelite roots.


For a Gentile, this makes little sense, as it is the Jewish people who are seeking out to identify and bring home the scattered of Israel. It is not something which Two House is actively working on. So, to Two House, the actual theology goes beyond the idea that the 10 tribes are scattered, but personalizes this message. It has always been about the position of Jew and Gentile together, which is the unity of the believers, while Israel and the 12 tribes are a different group, not the church.

Very good post. You have done good work in understanding this whole 2H thing.

 

[yedida]

Very good post. You have done good work in understanding this whole 2H thing.

This is what she's been saying since the beginning of the conversation. She's said it in a dozen different ways (once for each tribe maybe???).

 

[pat34lee]

Dr. Brown is saying the same thing I have said repeatedly. Jewish means all 12 tribes. The origin comes from those living in Judea, no matter which tribe, so all 12 tribes are called Jewish. Jew is a synonym of children of Israel.

For the sake of argument, I'll concede this point, though I think it is technically incorrect. There are still twelve distinct tribes, or thirteen if you count Ephraim and Manasseh separately. Whether you call those still lost Jews or Ephraim, they have not returned.

I recognized the same thing, which is why I used a 4 generation example and then went on to the reality of the number of generations based on Two House theology. If Two House theology is even remotely true, then the scattered tribes ceased to be children of Israel a long time ago.

How much blood does it take to be physically Israel? One problem I see is that we have no idea how YHWH defines this. For all we know, it takes 1 drop and repentance. That is one thing I'm glad to let him decide.

So, what happens to a person who is say 1% Jewish blood, and grew up for multiple generations as a Gentile who now wants to be recognized as Jewish/child of Israel? Well, they are now not Jewish, so they would need to convert to be Jewish/child of Israel.

Problem for believers. Rabbinic Judaism is a recent religion, and not the faith of the scripture. One cannot convert to Judaism today without denying Yeshua. Also, why should those scattered Jews who have their own traditions be made to convert to rabbinic tradition?

If Two House simply believed that there are 10 tribes scattered, who will return, there would be no issue, but Two House inserts much more. Two House emphasizes the term Ephraim, misusing the term, and at the basics of Two House, claims that Christians/Messianic Gentiles are Ephraim.

We have already determined that is not two house, but is added by a minority of teachers. Most believe that we do not know who the majority of the lost tribes are, or where they went. Grafting into Israel is a product of salvation, not a prerequisite.

So, to Two House, the actual theology goes beyond the idea that the 10 tribes are scattered, but personalizes this message. It has always been about the position of Jew and Gentile together, which is the unity of the believers, while Israel and the 12 tribes are a different group, not the church.

For now, they are different groups, both ethnically and religiously, but there is only one body of believers.

 

[ContraMundum]

This is what she's been saying since the beginning of the conversation. She's said it in a dozen different ways (once for each tribe maybe???).

I know. I took the opportunity to say it here.

 

[ChavaK]

T
The doctrine is clearly designed to minimize the Jewish people while elevating Gentiles who regard themselves as "Ephraim-by-fiat". You may not personally understand why that is anti-Semitic, but you might want to consider why both Jews and Gentiles on this forum stand against it.

I always found it too high a hurdle to think I can declare myself of a certain blood lineage with absolutely no evidence to suggest my family comes from that line. The whole concept is beyond reason, or reasonable discussion.

 

[Qnts2]

How much blood does it take to be physically Israel? One problem I see is that we have no idea how YHWH defines this. For all we know, it takes 1 drop and repentance. That is one thing I'm glad to let him decide.



Problem for believers. Rabbinic Judaism is a recent religion, and not the faith of the scripture. One cannot convert to Judaism today without denying Yeshua. Also, why should those scattered Jews who have their own traditions be made to convert to rabbinic tradition?

Since the Jewish people (all 12 tribes) have studied the scripture as to who is a Jew, and being Jewish also means acceptance as Jewish, it is not up to Gentiles to tell the Jewish people who is Jewish. Nor is it up to those outside of Judaism, (Gentiles), to try to alter Judaism. That is up to the Jewish people.

And that is one of the issues with Two House. They have taken on the role of trying to force the Jewish people to accept others as Jewish/Ephraism according to Two House standards. This is something for the Jewish people to work out, as to who is Jewish. Any outside group trying to dictate this is a huge issue.

So, you might not like the decisions of the Jewish people, and feel free to attack the Jewish people on those decisions. At the same time, I feel free to point out the error of Two House doctrine, who are trying to dictate to me, what I should believe and accept.

We have already determined that is not two house, but is added by a minority of teachers. Most believe that we do not know who the majority of the lost tribes are, or where they went. Grafting into Israel is a product of salvation, not a prerequisite.



For now, they are different groups, both ethnically and religiously, but there is only one body of believers.

What I quoted is not a minority opinion in Two House, but is actually the 'founder' of the Two House movement defining and defending Two House and the majority opinion within Two House.

And, grafting into Israel is not a product of salvation. Being 'grafted' into Yeshua is a product of salvation. Most of Israel today, is not saved. The assembly of Yeshua, are all believers and only believers, made up of Jewish believers and Gentile believers.