Identity Chrisis: Slander

[macher]

If you don't buy my definition, try here, and see what they say. I think you got some bad information about two house early on and it stuck in your mind.

Two House theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem is you posted a video that supposivly supports you. However the Stately video claims that when believe in a Jewish Messiah and start on a path of observing Torah you're really Ephraim. That's the issue. Now you're singing a different tune. I've been around Staley followers and I have first hand knowledge and watched the video many times.

There's no question that Staley teaches salvation by works. It's just the other side of the coin. He leads followers to believe they are Ephraim therefore making them part of Israel. However scripture doesn't say you have to a physical descendent of Israel to be subject to the promise in Messiah.

 

[ContraMundum]

Reactions and reservations. Innuendo and speculation. It is easy to take things out of context when you have a bias against it.

I do indeed have a bias against false doctrine.

That if you use the Hitler analogy against a fellow believer, you are just like liberals who, when they have no real argument, cry racist, bigot, homophobe or whatever, just to try and discredit their opponent personally.

Sorry to bring your argument out of politics and back into religion, but in theology the liberal opinion is the new one- eg. Staley's position is the liberal one. I represent the Conservatives on this point- he represents the liberals. I say the conventional orthodoxy on who are the real Jews is correct. He takes up a novel position that contradicts it. He's the "liberal"

You are the one who made it personal by your repeated attacks not only against 2 house, but Staley and other believers, calling them anti-Semites.

It is anti-semitism. He says that the "real Jews" are believers in Jesus. He says that if everybody accepts this, all the problems of the world would go away. He's selling lies, based on poor knowledge of scripture, a lack of familiarity with both Greek and Hebrew, using tried and true NLP and sensationalism. He must repent.

 

[ContraMundum]

The problem is you posted a video that supposivly supports you. However the Stately video claims that when believe in a Jewish Messiah and start on a path of observing Torah you're really Ephraim. That's the issue. Now you're singing a different tune. I've been around Staley followers and I have first hand knowledge and watched the video many times.

There's no question that Staley teaches salvation by works. It's just the other side of the coin. He leads followers to believe they are Ephraim therefore making them part of Israel. However scripture doesn't say you have to a physical descendent of Israel to be subject to the promise in Messiah.

Note to Pat: Macher is 100% right here!

 

[macher]

Note to Pat: Macher is 100% right here!

That's why they call me macher , get it?

 

[ContraMundum]

That's why they call me macher , get it?

As referencing the Yiddish word, yep.

 

[pat34lee]

The problem is you posted a video that supposivly supports you. However the Stately video claims that when believe in a Jewish Messiah and start on a path of observing Torah you're really Ephraim. That's the issue. Now you're singing a different tune. I've been around Staley followers and I have first hand knowledge and watched the video many times.

There's no question that Staley teaches salvation by works. It's just the other side of the coin. He leads followers to believe they are Ephraim therefore making them part of Israel. However scripture doesn't say you have to a physical descendent of Israel to be subject to the promise in Messiah.

If you watch near the end, he makes it clear that you don't have to be of Israel to be saved. When you are saved, you are grafted into Israel and become a Hebrew spiritually.

 

[pat34lee]

Sorry to bring your argument out of politics and back into religion, but in theology the liberal opinion is the new one- eg. Staley's position is the liberal one. I represent the Conservatives on this point- he represents the liberals. I say the conventional orthodoxy on who are the real Jews is correct. He takes up a novel position that contradicts it. He's the "liberal"

It is anti-semitism. He says that the "real Jews" are believers in Jesus. He says that if everybody accepts this, all the problems of the world would go away. He's selling lies, based on poor knowledge of scripture, a lack of familiarity with both Greek and Hebrew, using tried and true NLP and sensationalism. He must repent.

It is not about orthodox vs liberal, it is truth vs libel. If you believe that the Jews are all there is of Israel, then what of the tribes in Africa, India and East Asia that claim descent from Israel, some proven, some not? And where will the twelve thousand from each tribe come from for the witnesses in Revelation? Where is the Israel that will join with Judah in the end times just before Messiah appears?

 

[ContraMundum]

It is not about orthodox vs liberal, it is truth vs libel. If you believe that the Jews are all there is of Israel, then what of the tribes in Africa, India and East Asia that claim descent from Israel, some proven, some not?

Some are Jews, some not. Not a hard question.

And where will the twelve thousand from each tribe come from for the witnesses in Revelation?

It's symbolic. I'm not a JW looking for a literal number.

Where is the Israel that will join with Judah in the end times just before Messiah appears?

As above. That's a type of eschatology I don't believe in.

 

[macher]

If you watch near the end, he makes it clear that you don't have to be of Israel to be saved. When you are saved, you are grafted into Israel and become a Hebrew spiritually.

YET he keeps say 'we' referring to Ephraim. And meaning that we Ephraim are Judah's brother. He's claiming to be Ephraim therefore claiming to be a physical descendent of Israel.

 

[pat34lee]

Some are Jews, some not. Not a hard question.

None are from the kingdom of Israel?

It's symbolic. I'm not a JW looking for a literal number.

As above. That's a type of eschatology I don't believe in.

If you don't believe Revelation, how about Ezekiel? Chapters 32-37 in particular are talking about the end times and keeps the distinction between the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel. The two branches have never been united, as the rabbis in the first and second centuries AD were still discussing when and if they would return. History says the majority of Israel is still in the nations somewhere.

 

[macher]

Where is the Israel that will join with Judah in the end times just before Messiah appears?

In Romans 11 Paul says he's an Israelite not what a 2 Houser would claim that Paul is from Judah. Then Paul refers to the hardening of his brethren in the flesh Israel NOT Judah.

Can't you see your contradiction? If by your premise since Paul is referring to the hardening of Israel his brethren in the flesh then...?

 

[ContraMundum]

If you don't believe Revelation, how about Ezekiel? Chapters 32-37 in particular are talking about the end times and keeps the distinction between the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel.

It's not about the end times. It's about the Prophet's times. It came true.

History says the majority of Israel is still in the nations somewhere.

I don't think it says that at all. Even if it did....so what? How does that make Staley right?

 

[macher]

History says the majority of Israel is still in the nations somewhere.

Again Paul refers to the hardening of Israel until... I'm an Israelite in the diaspora. Nothing new under the sun. My family came to the USA from the Ukraine.

 

[pat34lee]

YET he keeps say 'we' referring to Ephraim. And meaning that we Ephraim are Judah's brother. He's claiming to be Ephraim therefore claiming to be a physical descendent of Israel.

No, he is saying we are grafted into Ephraim rather than Judah. How he decided that, I'm not sure. I don't think there is any way to tell which tribe, if any in particular, that believers will be affiliated with in the end days.

 

[pat34lee]

Again Paul refers to the hardening of Israel until... I'm an Israelite in the diaspora. Nothing new under the sun. My family came to the USA from the Ukraine.

There is a difference between the Jews, who mostly still know who they are, and Israel, who has mostly forgotten.

 

[mishkan]

If you watch near the end, he makes it clear that you don't have to be of Israel to be saved. When you are saved, you are grafted into Israel and become a Hebrew spiritually.

That's called "good marketing". He realized his teachings were bringing certain reactions, so he added a disclaimer at the end to short-circuit the normal reactions. The problem is, he doesn't modify the original teachings, at all!

Staley is all about image, with little substance. If you're going to insist on posting him to support your beliefs, you need to make sure you actually agree with what he teaches. He is telling a 100% Gentile audience, "We are Ephraim". That is a lie, and the implications lead many people to self-righteousness and arrogance.

 

[pat34lee]

It's not about the end times. It's about the Prophet's times. It came true.

You need to read that again. It hasn't happened yet.

I don't think it says that at all. Even if it did....so what? How does that make Staley right?

A Rabbi Looks at the Lost Tribes of Israel | Jewish Voice Ministries International

Ten Lost Tribes

Are the Ten Lost Tribes Ever Coming Back? - The Saga of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel—Part 2 - Essays on Jewish History

 

[macher]

A Rabbi Looks at the Lost Tribes of Israel | Jewish Voice Ministries International

Ten Lost Tribes

Are the Ten Lost Tribes Ever Coming Back? - The Saga of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel—Part 2 - Essays on Jewish History

Are you confused about 2 House?

 

[pat34lee]

Are you confused about 2 House?

No, but it seems several here are. Its like there are a bunch of people here telling me I'm Methodist when I'm Baptist because the two believe many of the same things and they can't be bothered to find out the difference.

Try this link to see what it is, and what it isn't.

Two House theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Gxg (G²)]

A Rabbi Looks at the Lost Tribes of Israel | Jewish Voice Ministries International

Ten Lost Tribes

Are the Ten Lost Tribes Ever Coming Back? - The Saga of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel—Part 2 - Essays on Jewish History

Good resources and thanks for sharing them. I didn't see any issue in what was noted..nor is it really that different from many working in certain 2House circles have noted - be it Jew or Gentile. If the issue is seeing Two-House based on the negatives others are bringing up, of course one doesn't need to support that - but based on what you've been saying and others in differing 2House circles, the negatives do not define things adequately with where others are coming from on the 10 tribes.

Its like there are a bunch of people here telling me I'm Methodist when I'm Baptist because the two believe many of the same things and they can't be bothered to find out the difference.

Sorry you have to experience that as you have.

2 house is only about the fact that Ephraim is still among the nations waiting to return. Period. It has nothing to do with who they are, or where they went. The only way we connect as gentiles to Israel is by grafting in spiritually. If some happen to be bloodline of Israel, kudos to them, but it makes no difference except when Israel is finally called to return. For salvation, it has no bearing.

Essentially, the issue comes down to the concept of how the variation of Two-House you/others subscribe to is not the same as the variation of it that tends to be more Mainstream/problematic (i.e. Gentiles claiming automatically to be Ephraimites by blood, Claiming the Jewish people aren't special to the Lord, pushing Jews out and not knowing identity in Christ, etc.) - and again, I'm sorry you have had to have the experience as you have so far.