Thank God for people like Talmidim who speak up for the truth.... much needed straight shooting from the hip and perfect aiming and on target. Good Job!!!
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Messianic Judaism?
- Thread starter DRobert
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aniello
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Yep, strong medicine and needed to be heard. That those who are senza palle, giggle and experience nausea due to their fear based positions don't like to hear such is of no significant consequence and they should not be heeded nor accorded any credible standing on this issue, especially since they are not MJ they are not family in the MJ sense. Really none of their business.
However, we should leave it open for them to expulse as it amuses me.
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someguy14
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Thank you very much friend. I have rarely found Hebrew forums. I appreciate the invitation. May God bless.
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someguy14
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Easy G (G²);62078281 said:
This is beautiful friend. Diversities with one common unity, God. In God we are all one and able to share new and exciting upbringings and situations. May God have mercy upon us.
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Easy G (G²) said:
I agree. There are those that condemn Ariel Ministries as an example. However it's interesting that Dr F in my opinion is well versed with Israel-ology.
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- Sep 30, 2004
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Hi Visionary, Hi Aniello,
Thanks for the encouragement. I am deeply grateful that someone agrees. But I have to ask. Since when is voicing direct observations of verifiable fact such a big deal here? You could hear the crickets were it not for the Christians and Jews (doctrinally and ethnically respectively) freely espousing.
Why is pointing out that standard Christian doctrine is not Messianic Torah observance suddenly strong medicine?
Have things degenerated so far in this forum that the Torah observant need walk on egg-shells?
What happened to the protections that we were promised from this type of disinformation and harassment?
What happened to the supposed changed that this new SOP was going to bring?
Why are Jews and Christians allowed to teach - or even voice an opinion about Messianic Torah observance in this forum?
Why are they allowed to assassinate the character of people that ask these questions?
Why are mainstream Christians allowed to claim a Torah observant Messianic Judaism icons, when their teachings clearly conform to mainstream Christian doctrine instead?
Why are these pretenders allowed to claim that Torah observant Messianic Judaism is an outgrowth of Modern Christianity? So who were Stephan, James, Peter, Nathaniel, Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas ? Southern Baptists?
How many Torah observant modern Christians are there anyway, excluding those that keep maybe nine of the Ten?
Why am I the only Torah observant Messianic in this forum asking these questions?
Why are the only answers to these question I am asking - coming from people that espouse mainstream Christian doctrine?
Are there only two or three Torah observant Messianics left in this forum?
If so, why am I here?
If so, why is this even called a Messianic forum and a separate faith group anyway? Shouldn't this forum be moved to a sub-forum of the Southern Baptists? After all, according to some pretenders here, that's where Torah observant Messianic Judaism all started.
This is supposed to be the fellowship forum. Where are my fellow Torah observant adherents of Messianic Judaism?
This is supposed to be a thread asking about Messianic Judaism. The SOP says that we are all Torah observant here. Really? How do the Torah observant in this forum observe Torah any different than mainstream Christianity? Show me. Cause I don't see it.
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yonah_mishael
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And you really think that your positions are not the target of his attacks? Just because he doesn't mention names....
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yonah_mishael
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In this matter, we are shoulder to shoulder.. in others we will hash it out as per usual..
But: (1) You are not Torah observant and (2) your beliefs in most matters are very Protestant Christian. You're exactly the type of person he's writing about.
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Yeah, I know... our voice does seem quiet compared to the multitude that has invaded this area of the forum.. but we are here... just over run at the moment. We have been reporting like crazy to the mods... but the mods not identifying with the distinctions and views, can not relate the importance thus rely on their Christian theology to help them handle the cases. IN other words, we have not the clear distinctions made so that those walking around with scrolls stand out as members who stand for something, rather than this miss mash of claimers of which I am one. We just might need to tighten up where we stand in comparison with these other sub groups or suggest that CF create their own little homes for these people to congregate. As it sits now, this spot is the closest thing they can find in CF which they sort of identify with.
It has been suggested before, and may I suggest it again
Under Congregations
- Those who are a part of this Movement***
- - Messianic Judaism
- - Two House
- - Jews for Jesus
- - Hebrew Christians
- - Name Claimers
- - [others]
[*** Don't get tied up in a wad over "Movement" it is just an identifier for sake of conversation .] I am sure, there is a better name tag. It is just a way of identifying to the rest of the CF that there is a variety in this grand crowd movement and they can go fellowship with each group in their own separate congregational area and get clear voices on who, what, and the understanding differences each bring to the table.
Right now, we are not making Messianic Judaism a certain sound for the outside world coming in asking questions and getting clear answers. Every time a person comes in asking innocent questions, we have every form of answer including those even regular sunday keepers coming in and answering what should be exclusively for MJ believers to answer.
The scroll was suppose to help, but there is no process to check in at the gates to determine if the people who are claiming the scroll even really identify with MJ. I know that right now, even within MJ there is a struggle amongst the leaders as to what identifies the movement, which further complicates the matter. One house vs old Judaism traditional definitions for the gentiles place, rights, responsibilties as members that have been carried over, is hotly debated. IN this we may have to keep the subforms until the living body outside this internet resolves the issue.
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I am as Torah observant as a one law abiding gentile can be.... without any desire to becoming a Jew.
just practicing Yeshua style Judaism by faith.
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yonah_mishael
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I am as Torah observant as a one law abiding gentile can be.... without any desire to becoming a Jew.
Do you think Jesus would recognize anything of your religious practice? Honestly?
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Absolutely... Yeshua is the one who is leading me.
... Do you use the term "Jesus" in this corner of CF for an insult to my faith?
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I would say yes, since Jesus defined the practice as starting with faith in His completed work. Once a person has faith in Yeshua, they are 'in'. And from there, they are to do all things thru faith. So, if a Gentile believes they have been called by God to practice the law, and by faith, do so, then Yeshua will recognize them and their practice.
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So true. Dr.F has been slandered multiple times despite his Jewish heritage and love for Torah. I've mentioned how the Messianic Fellowship I attend supports Fruchtenbaum...as do many other Jewish believers who advocated the same, from Paul Wilbur to Keith Green to Michael Brown, Asher Intrater, Dan Juster and many others.
Dr. Fruchtenbaum has taught his Israelology course for Chafer Theological Seminary and it was recorded at West Houston Bible Church in Texas. The entire course is available free online at the Dean Bible Ministries website. Audio files can be downloaded or heard online here ): And the Powerpoint slides he did are found here. I've enjoyed listening to many of the series by Dr.Arnold, especially his series on the differing types of "Torah" that were given over the ages. And the work he has done within the Messianic movement has been stellar, IMHO. Of course, for others not the same in ideology as he is, it has been said before that he is not necessarily "Messianic"---but that is not the widespread view of all within Messianic Judaism as much as it can be with individuals/groups who do not deem Torah Observance differing from their own level of comfort as being "Christian."
However, sadly, what happens is that people fail to actually address other Jewish believers living out Torah/Loving God's laws and (based on a false narrative/lie) assume that anything CHristian can never be Jewish or reflective of what the scripture say. A very illogical stance in light of how early Jewish believers had no issue seeing themselves as Christian and observant (I Peter 4)...and it is due to a failure at understanding terms/history that leads to others doing massive attempts at either with-hunts or persecuting fellow believers in the Lord (i.e. gossip, slander, backbitting, etc.). This has been noted by many Messianic Jewish leaders for a very long time - especially in regards to groups that attempt to push One Law (i.e. "You're not Observant as a Gentile or a Jew if you claim levels of observance or different" ...basically saying if you don't agree with them).
This, to me, is a bit of serious irony. As it concerns here, many talk all day long about the SoP or gripe on it in other places/forums - but there is really no concern with honoring it when there is refusal to abide by what they asked for in observance. As the SoP plainly states:
1. This is a Torah Observant forum where those in Judaism as well as the Gentiles who are coming to Messiah, and those who already know Him, may come and grow and learn more about a Torah observant life in Messiah. We advocate Torah Observance as part of our walk with Messiah Yeshua, since He is our example and was Torah Observant, along with the disciples. This can be an area of great division with much misunderstanding, so we must realize that we are all at different points in our walk and that the Ruach Elohim (the Spirit of God) will lead people to The Truth. We realize that not all Messianics have equal levels of Torah observance. The disputes concerning this matter will not be tolerated.
- Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles
- Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua
__________________
In light of how many Messianic JEWISH believers have actually left due to how unattractive it was, it says something when folks cannot pick up on how so much done in the proclamation of "I'm truly more Observant than THEY ARE!!!" don't realize what they do. This is even more problematic when accusations are thrown out such as "That's just Christian" to imply anything corrupt or negligent or unconcerned for the Lord - as if it's a good thing to attempt demeaning others by regulating anything they disagree with to be "Christian" and portrayed as if it's a cuss word - no different than someone offensively saying "That's just Jewish" on a Jewish website whenever they dsiagree with something/want to find a way of smearing someone. Christian is not a byword - nor is it the case that using the term as such is in line with what the Word says in Ephesians 4:28-30 on not having unwholesome talk NOT come out of our mouths.
This is also in connection with the other BIG Elephant in the room that no one really wants to address honestly. And all who are posting in the forums are people of high intelligence/thinking, so it is not something that should be difficult to understand if one is willing to see what's present...and take ownership of it:
For as said before - if anyone honestly looks at the MJ Statement Of Purpose (new) at the bottom of the page, it says the following explictly:
We believe it is the calling of all believers to share the "Good News" of the coming Kingdom and to live a life transformed by the Spirit of God following our Lord's example of love toward God, and all mankind.
House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here:
http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0
House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here:
http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0
But you claim to be Messianic and refuse to honor anything in CHrisitanity, you simply don't honor the SoP - and thus, you don't belong on it as CF feels. End of Story.
The name of the HOST site we're at - Christian Forums - is a bit of a no brainer as to what is meant to be promoted - and it's intellectually dishonest for anyone to complain in the name of "We don't feel JUDAISM AS WE SEE IT IS PROMOTED!!!" when they fail to be honorable toward what CF noted on its own interpretation.
It is disingenious for anyone to read the SoP or CF and attempt to either slide things that are basically rants against Christianity - or complain on not feeling supported by CF when they already made plain they couldn't care less about it. It has been made plain multiple times here (as well as on other forums ) directly - and that's something that cannot be avoided.
You don't go into someone's house, start to raid their fridge for food/make a bed or build a chicken coup (against the neighborhood community rules) - and then bring others in proclaiming "You need to accomodate us in what we think - as this is how we feel you should be living life!!" . It'd be even more problematic if there were attempts at gathering a committee with like minded people wanting to use your home for their own purposes - and trying to talk on how the neighborhood should support their "just cause" - even though they may have no issue calling home/telling friends and associates how they hate the neighborhood and think the owners/founders of it are foolish.
That'd be rude....and to add to the issue, it would give the impression that others claiming concern with "healthy living" are basically using your home as a parasite - using your resources/manpower for their own benefit. It doesn't work like that in the real world - and neither does it work like that here.
CF has made very plain that all faith groups - be it the Baptist or the Reformed or the Charismatic and the Messianic Jewish - are to be in direct agreement with the SITE Wide rules as it concerns CHristianity. This has been said both explictly and implictly - and no one who is intellectually honest on the matter will say otherwise. If the Site Wide rules cannot be honored and such intentions of not doing so have been stated as such, there's no way to hide that.
This is not a forum meant to denounce Christianity - in the name of Messianic Judaism. This is not a forum meant to denouce Chrisitans or the Church - in the name of Messianic Judaism. This is not a Forum meant to claim Jewish Observant believers of Torah who are Christians are not "Torah Observant" - in the name of Messianic Judaism. It is a forum consistent with what other Messianic Jews have long noted when it comes to advocating the goal of promoting Christianity and seeing Messianic Judaism as conected to that -bridging the gap for Jewish believers in Christ. Messianic Judaism is distinct from other forms of Christianity on multiple levels - but it was never meant to be seen as in competition to it.
So long as people believe a lie that the forum was meant to be SEPERATE from Christianity, there will always be attempts to hijack it for their own purposes - and then cry "FOUL!!!!" when it is not honored or seen as honorable. If people do not like Christians or the Church, there's nothing saying that they cannot feel that way. The option is simply for them to leave and go elsewhere in places they have freedom to express such - btu CF has never given any permission for that to occur here.
Basically, if you're a Christian (be it Jewish or Gentile), CF was meant to support you. But it's ludicrious to expect CF to be supportative of not being such/trying to raise fuss on others who are. We can talk all day long about trying to examine the SoP when it comes to the variations of Messianic Jewish thought and Jewish lifestyle that others didn't like (and used to be accustomed to not seeing discussed ) - but there needs to be honesty shown in dealing with the fact that the SoP was never honored when one trys to find ways of denouncing Christianity on a site made to support it.
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We just might need to tighten up where we stand in comparison with these other sub groups or suggest that CF create their own little homes for these people to congregate. As it sits now, this spot is the closest thing they can find in CF which they sort of identify with.
It has been suggested before, and may I suggest it again
Under Congregations
- Those who are a part of this Movement***
- - Messianic Judaism
- - Two House
- - Jews for Jesus
- - Hebrew Christians
- - Name Claimers
- - [others]
[*** Don't get tied up in a wad over "Movement" it is just an identifier for sake of conversation .] I am sure, there is a better name tag. It is just a way of identifying to the rest of the CF that there is a variety in this grand crowd movement and they can go fellowship with each group in their own separate congregational area and get clear voices on who, what, and the understanding differences each bring to the table.
Right now, we are not making Messianic Judaism a certain sound for the outside world coming in asking questions and getting clear answers. Every time a person comes in asking innocent questions, we have every form of answer including those even regular sunday keepers coming in and answering what should be exclusively for MJ believers to answer.
The scroll was suppose to help, but there is no process to check in at the gates to determine if the people who are claiming the scroll even really identify with MJ. I know that right now, even within MJ there is a struggle amongst the leaders as to what identifies the movement, which further complicates the matter. One house vs old Judaism traditional definitions for the gentiles place, rights, responsibilties as members that have been carried over, is hotly debated. IN this we may have to keep the subforms until the living body outside this internet resolves the issue.
I'm not quite sure I am following this.
But, if you are proposing separate section for Messianic Judaism, and Two House and Sacred namers, I definitely agree. Two House and Sacred namers are not a part of Messianic Judaism. But, I said pretty much the same thing a while back.
As far as Jews for Jesus being a separate group, that I view as problematic. Jews for Jesus is a missionary organization made up of Jewish believers in Yeshua, who are called to share the gospel with their greater family, the Jewish people. The Jews for Jesus missionaries are Jewish or married to a Jewish person. Many are Messianic Jews and some are not.
Since Jews for Jesus is strictly a missionary organization with the missionaries being Jewish believers who attend various congregations, it is not like it falls under these divisions. In other words, you can't tell a Jewish missionary with the Jews for Jesus organization that they aren't Messianic Jews (as most are) simply because they are missionaries with Jews for Jesus.
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It was mentioned because so many have come in asking questions because of J4J and we are not part of the orgamization but a separate identity. This is all about the identity crisis and how to resolve it. So I have no problem with J4J being in the missionary section of Cf and we have a link to direct people there.
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