Messianic Judaism?

[Gxg (G²)]

I think people who have strong faith know that God hears their prayers. We are assured of this in scripture. Famous hymn about or two about it as well. I was just sayin' the scriptures give examples of prayers not being heard or hindered by sin. I would hope that anyone's confidence in being heard in prayer was well founded. But I do think some people may have delusions about being heard too.

I think that there are some things which people can assume to be absent when reading on the scriptures of the Lord either hearing us or our being able to go before the throne for resources. For there are an entire host of concepts that writers of scripture expressed in differing places (and others left alone since the audience being spoken to was well aware of what was going on/didn't need to have it explained to them). In example, when people read the writings of Paul to Jewish audiences, you'd not need to hear of all the ways Jewish believers accepted things found in parts of Oral Rabbinical culture since it was something most of the believers already did to a certain degree - and thus, it'd be redundant to bring up again. The same thing goes for Paul and the other apostles not needing to discuss the ways that the Jewish people still worked with others such as the Essenes (as many of their practices were directly from them - from the communal nature of their groups to the way they baptized and a host of other things).

And likewise, with intercession from others, the idea was already taught within Jewish culture - be it in the form of a priest or what happened when other historical figures like Daniel or Ezra or Nehemiah and many others prayed/intercedded for the nation of Israel before the Lord heard them....and the same with things James noted such as going to the elders for prayer/confession so that one would be healed (rather than thinking one could just go to Jesus )...and thus, even in talking on the ways Christ was/is our mediator ( 1 Timothy 2:4-6 ), there was an inherent understanding on how that didn't/was not in conflict with the ideology of the Mediator still setting up channels for others to recieve grace/certain things from the Lord.

 

[visionary]

I think that there are some things which people can assume to be absent when reading on the scriptures of the Lord either hearing us or our being able to go before the throne for resources. For there are an entire host of concepts that writers of scripture expressed in differing places (and others left alone since the audience being spoken to was well aware of what was going on/didn't need to have it explained to them). In example, when people read the writings of Paul to Jewish audiences, you'd not need to hear of all the ways Jewish believers accepted things found in parts of Oral Rabbinical culture since it was something most of the believers already did to a certain degree - and thus, it'd be redundant to bring up again. The same thing goes for Paul and the other apostles not needing to discuss the ways that the Jewish people still worked with others such as the Essenes (as many of their practices were directly from them - from the communal nature of their groups to the way they baptized and a host of other things).

And likewise, with intercession from others, the idea was already taught within Jewish culture - be it in the form of a priest or what happened when other historical figures like Daniel or Ezra or Nehemiah and many others prayed/intercedded for the nation of Israel before the Lord heard them....and the same with things James noted such as going to the elders for prayer/confession so that one would be healed (rather than thinking one could just go to Jesus )...and thus, even in talking on the ways Christ was/is our mediator ( 1 Timothy 2:4-6 ), there was an inherent understanding on how that didn't/was not in conflict with the ideology of the Mediator still setting up channels for others to recieve grace/certain things from the Lord.

All examples were with live people praying for one another.. not to dead people.

 

[ContraMundum]

When does one upgrade from this "communion with the saints" to having "Yeshua interceded on their behalf before the Father" or "come bodly before the throne of grace".. when and where and how do they graduate in faith to this level?

I don't think you get this yet. It is not "communion with the saints" it is the communion OF the saints. It's about unity in Messiah. We are asked to pray for one another in scripture, and this is merely one small part of being part of the one communion in Messiah. We all have the Messiah as our advocate, and we all can boldly approach- yet we are called to pray for one another. We need each other. If it's about graduation to higher levels then we would (theoretically) not need the prayers of others.

I don't think this idea you have about this doctrine is the right one. Not even Catholics would agree with your understanding of their doctrine.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

All examples were with live people praying for one another.. not to dead people.

No need bringing up other examples of others praying for others who passed on since that was already mentioned - and as said before, As it is, as noted before, intercessions from those who have left were already well accepted LONG BEFORE anything of RC came on the scene....as seen directly in how the matriarch Rachael and others were treated in Judaism (Rachael seen as praying for the Jewish people on the earth before the Lord - as shared earlier in #63/ #65 ). Starting with what occurred with Rachael weeping for her children ( Rachel's Tomb :: Jewish Media Resources ) and later what happened in the Maccabees account. And of course, there's Yeshua talking to Moses and Elijah.

One can protest as much as they desire, but scripture is scripture - and Jewish history is Jewish history. As it is, the examples brought up of Daniel and Ezra/others do nothing to change the fact that all people praying for others are doing the same as those who've already passed on - standing in the GAP for others, as opposed to the claim "I can go directly to Yeshua myself for everything".(as you argued earlier in #51 )..and thus, it's a moot point what you raise. The saints who've passed on before are living/doing work just as others who are still present - and God has set up channels.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I don't think you get this yet. It is not "communion with the saints" it is the communion OF the saints. It's about unity in Messiah. We are asked to pray for one another in scripture, and this is merely one small part of being part of the one communion in Messiah. We all have the Messiah as our advocate, and we all can boldly approach- yet we are called to pray for one another. We need each other. If it's about graduation to higher levels then we would (theoretically) not need the prayers of others.

I don't think this idea you have about this doctrine is the right one. Not even Catholics would agree with your understanding of their doctrine.

Spot on.

 

[Qnts2]

I don't think you get this yet. It is not "communion with the saints" it is the communion OF the saints. It's about unity in Messiah. We are asked to pray for one another in scripture, and this is merely one small part of being part of the one communion in Messiah. We all have the Messiah as our advocate, and we all can boldly approach- yet we are called to pray for one another. We need each other. If it's about graduation to higher levels then we would (theoretically) not need the prayers of others.

I don't think this idea you have about this doctrine is the right one. Not even Catholics would agree with your understanding of their doctrine.

From my understanding of RCC doctrine, the saints, such as Mary, are viewed as having more influence on Jesus because of their standing, and therefore, their prayers are more effective.

Contrary to that teaching, all of Gods children by adoption have equal standing before God, and the effective prayers of the saints (which all believers are saints), avails much.

The common belief among believers is that God is all knowing and all hearing. Those who have died and now reside in heaven are not said to be all knowing or all hearing. Therefore, the dead in Messiah can not hear the prayers of the saints, and can not answer them. Neither Mary/Miriam, nor Paul, nor any other departed saint can hear the prayers of 1000 saints on earth simultaneously prayed. God can. So, the expectation of asking favors of departed saints, applies attributes of God alone to those saints.

Prayer is simply speaking to God. Asking the departed to pray, is talking to the departed. There should be no expectation of those departed hearing.

However, while I am alive, I can ask God to bless and protect future generations. God can hear me, and God can act in the lives of those in the future.

 

[Temptinfates]

The question often comes up whether or not God always hears our prayers.

Only those that don't KNOW he answers prayers question if their prayers are heard. It never comes up in my home. Not one person in my immediate family would ever doubt that he hears our prayers.

In Job 42 God was so annoyed with Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite that He told them to seek Job's intercession for them. IOW, a tzadik had to pray for them. The NT also speaks of sin hindering prayers- 1 Pet. 3


The story of JOB is a special case and does not apply to everyone's prayers. There is no evidence that JOB sent for his friends to come pray for them. Adonai calls JOB a righteous person. The story is about Hasatan trying to show that the only reason Job was righteous, loved Adonai --was because of Adonai's protection, health, and the things Adonai had provided for him. This is the central theme of the book----not communing with the dead. If we are going to use Job, then we should quote Job's words (the only righteous person here between himself, his friends, and his wife). His "friends" were there to mock JOB.
I do not see evidence from JOB that he sought anyone except Adonai. No communion of saints needed. Perhaps you wish to show from Job that he somehow subscribed to something other than what he did. Why did they need the prayer ffom JOB? They should have been able to call on multitudes of "passed on saints". Adonai had the living righteous pray for the unrighteous. If Job did not consider Job righteous, then he would not have had him pray for his friends foolish words and attitudes.



The first thing a faithful person does when they have a problem is ask others to pray for them.
Wrong!! When I got the call from my aunt that my mother died, she wanted to know if I was coming. I told her that I needed to pray. And that is exactly what I did. I did not go to a church or a synagogue. I went directly to Adonai. My unbelieving Aunt though me silly. I waited till I got the answer, staying in prayer before Adonai. To this day, I do not seek out someone else to pray for me. To pray about the things going on on my life, most so called believers don't believe in the issues surrounding me--nor do they wish to have it stain their denomination. I had been advised by Adonai that my mother would pass because of her witchcraft. He had had me pray for mercy on her. Adonai had already let me know that she had made her choice, would not hear, and that his decision was based on that. Praying for mercy for her was to rebutt her accusations that "I hated her", and that no one prayed for her. So, Adonai had me pray that to keep me clean and to further silence her accusations when she died. It has been the same with many members of my family. For Adonai to clean up my family, he has to remove the wicked. I have been asked to stand with him while he does it. Will I stand with him over family? So, I stand with him. No needing of anyone else involved. Adonai placed my soul within my family because he knew I would be able to do the job. SO, my prayers alone to Adonai are what he requires in my situation. Would it have been comforting to have like-minded individuals praying in unison? Perhaps. The only problem is a lack of people that can get past their flesh.



Why? Because we are commanded to do so (James 5:16) and because we can intercede for each other based on our unity in Messiah (eg. the communion of saints). The question then arises- would you ask a holy person or an unreligious person to pray for you? Obviously the holy one. Who then are the holiest?


Who is HOLY? Who decides this? The RCC? Down through the years, hom many people outside the RCC have they declared HOLY? Are they the final say-so, or is Adonai the one who decides who is HOLY enough? You do know that I have listened to Catholic ministers forbidding Catholics from going to attend a wedding because the said people getting married were not Catholics? A protestant wedding was to be shunned by these family members. If Catholic ministers do such a thing, I will not listen to them on who is Holy. Heard it myself.

Got any Baptists, Methodists, interdominationals or any others that the RCC has decared saints? I don't remember Joseph Smith declaring any prophets from the RCC either...

That's roughly the logic train of the RCC here..

I suppose you are trying to prove that a Catholic idea of praying to passed on Saints is something Messianic Jews should accept. I for one, do not and will not accept it. I don't care if "some jews" might have practiced such a thing. Were they believers? did they know Yeshua? I don't see Yeshua telling anyone to worship or pray that way.

"Our Father who art in heaven" ----not help me Saints approved by the RCC. If Catholics wish to do so, that is their free will choice. You will not find me desiring to do so. This is our example by Yeshua. It works.

Temptinfates

 

[yedida]

From my understanding of RCC doctrine, the saints, such as Mary, are viewed as having more influence on Jesus because of their standing, and therefore, their prayers are more effective.

Contrary to that teaching, all of Gods children by adoption have equal standing before God, and the effective prayers of the saints (which all believers are saints), avails much.

The common belief among believers is that God is all knowing and all hearing. Those who have died and now reside in heaven are not said to be all knowing or all hearing. Therefore, the dead in Messiah can not hear the prayers of the saints, and can not answer them. Neither Mary/Miriam, nor Paul, nor any other departed saint can hear the prayers of 1000 saints on earth simultaneously prayed. God can. So, the expectation of asking favors of departed saints, applies attributes of God alone to those saints.

Prayer is simply speaking to God. Asking the departed to pray, is talking to the departed. There should be no expectation of those departed hearing.

However, while I am alive, I can ask God to bless and protect future generations. God can hear me, and God can act in the lives of those in the future.

Agreed totally. It is also unscriptural in the area of no more tears, sadness, etc. How would a deceased mother feel hearing her child crying from hunger, lack of warmth/love, brutalized, etc? Not very pleasant for the deceased. I'm glad that those who have passed on can no longer hear what's going on with their families, many of them earned that blessed peace they were promised (I'm sure most know what I mean, not 'earned' in a 'works' sort of way....).

 

[aniello]

Agreed totally. It is also unscriptural in the area of no more tears, sadness, etc. How would a deceased mother feel hearing her child crying from hunger, lack of warmth/love, brutalized, etc? Not very pleasant for the deceased. I'm glad that those who have passed on can no longer hear what's going on with their families, many of them earned that blessed peace they were promised (I'm sure most know what I mean, not 'earned' in a 'works' sort of way....).

Yeshua is my only High Priest/Intercessor.

Here's a commentary for those that wish to commune with the dead, just to add more gravity to the issue.

Sittin' Up With The Dead-Ray Stevens - YouTube

Really!!!

 

[yedida]

Yeshua is my only High Priest/Intercessor.

Here's a commentary for those that wish to commune with the dead, just to add more gravity to the issue.

Sittin' Up With The Dead-Ray Stevens - YouTube

Really!!!

And I thought I had everything the man has recorded!
Agreed! Yeshua is my only Intercessor! What other could possibly be needed?

 

[yedida]

Not again!
Here is our SoP, it tells quickly who we are and what we believe (for the most part): http://www.christianforums.com/t7652097/

I would ask you how you can trust a God who would for centuries punish His people for not obeying His ways and then over a period of just a few years decide to change everything up? I'm sorry, but I couldn't trust such a God. My God, the Holy One of Israel has not obliterated anything, nothing has been fulfilled in a sense to be done away with. Just because Yeshua obeyed to the utmost, doesn't give us license to disobey. God's instructions stand.
Try reading Paul without your Baptist glasses on and it will read quite differently, that's a promise!

 

[Qnts2]

staff edit

First a quick correction. Messianic Jews and Gentiles do not worship the holy days, but we do worship on the holy days. Since Messianic Judaism is based on Jewish culture, we worship on Shabbat/Saturday, and from childhood have celebrated or kept the Holidays, and now see them as pointing to Messiah, so all Messianic Judaism synagogues will worship on the Holy days.

As far as the doctrine of predestination, that is not viewed as salvific. Or to put it another way, one does not have to believe in the doctrine of predestination in order to be saved. So, you will find some Messianic Jews and Gentiles who believe in predestination and some who don't. If you want a Messianic Judaism congregation to strictly adhere to the doctrine of predestination, you probably won't find it. And most Messianic Rabbis would likely be wary of a person who insisted on that belief while rejecting people who believed otherwise as it is not viewed as an essential for salvation.


In otherwords, what you are looking for won't exist in Messianic Judaism.

 

[aniello]

staff edit

Hi NCT,

I've got 3 going on 7 grandchildren visiting for xmas so my 2-3 days off from lawyering(ambulance chasing) is rather arduous. I love them but at my age I am tempted to go back to my office and hide under my desk. Yipers what energy. I'm old.

My question regarding Paul's statement before Festus(IIRC) in his own defense was based on specifically this:

Act 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

So, in this statement, is Paul lying? Yes or no? I do not accept the tangenting off as anything but an attempted diversion from my specific question. In court such tangenting or refusal to answer a direct could lead to contempt of court. Pushed, it could lead to willful intent to commit fraud aka perjury.

Again, in this passage specifically: Act 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all. ......did Paul lie? I think not!

Well?

I have an acquaintance who is a ThD. or PhD. pastor/elder of a Reform Baptist Church up in the town north of me, I live in the boonies. I have known and been discussing things with him for the past near 15 years. Sometimes, even often, he has given me the impression that no one was ever saved before Calvin(certainly not Michael Servetes the father of cardiology) except maybe Paul and only marginally Augustin.

All the come lately mis-theology notwithstanding, did Paul lie to Festus in this Passage:

Act 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

?????

Well, did he?

Gotta run, the kids want to decorate our rather large tumbleweeds.

 

[yedida]

I appreciate your candor. Truth is, the doctrine of predestination must be taught. Paul taught it. James did. Peter did. To make a leader of a congregation a person who does not believe in predestination is wrong.

Sorry.

Let me add, it is possible for an elect Christian to not believe in predestination but it is a temporary thing. Faith means they must believe that they are elect. The letters of Paul assumed the people knew they were elect. So, you are correct, I am still waiting. No one can buy into my doctrine but I am telling you the truth.

And we're telling you, a guest here in MJ, that you are out of sync with what Messianic Judaism is and teaches. Please see the SoP that I referred you to earlier.

 

[yedida]

I understand that. I guess I will have to start my own Messianic Judaism movement. Know this Yedida, you have to stick with scriptures. They trump tradition. The New Testament interprets the Old. That is a hard and fast rule of the Apostles. There is a new High Priest, and He has offered His own sacrifice, and His new law can be fulfilled through faith to the end!

Yes, there is a change in the law of the priesthood but not an abolishment of the old law. And the instructions in Torah, temple/priesthood laws set aside for the moment, are still in force. Yeshua did not abolish any of them.
You seem to be under the impression that what is stated in the NT is different from what God stated in the Tanakh? This is wrong. Take your old glasses off and read it all through a couple of times and you'll see what we are seeing. If there is something that appears to state one way by Paul and another by Moses, it's you that is in error, not Paul and definitely not Moses. They agree with HaShem.
I will ignore your second statement, let someone else handle that one

 

[yedida]

Young man, these are words of an abuser, it is courtroom calibre sick. We get this psychospiritual excrement daily in various litigations, sometimes where the woman has been killed. In my opinion you have been severely brainwashed thus abused. May I suggest a thoroughgoing course of counseling lest in a future temper burst you do something that cannot be remedied in this life.

Thanks my brother. likewise sister Qnts. I was rather at a loss for words when I saw that statement of his!

 

[mishkan]

I don't think you get this yet. It is not "communion with the saints" it is the communion OF the saints. It's about unity in Messiah. We are asked to pray for one another in scripture, and this is merely one small part of being part of the one communion in Messiah. We all have the Messiah as our advocate, and we all can boldly approach- yet we are called to pray for one another. We need each other. If it's about graduation to higher levels then we would (theoretically) not need the prayers of others.

I don't think this idea you have about this doctrine is the right one. Not even Catholics would agree with your understanding of their doctrine.

I have to agree with you. The doctrine is not about necromancy, but about solidarity with Catholics of all ages. It is very similar to the Jewish mentality of "kol Yisrael" and "b'kol dor vador"... that those who live in this--and every--generation participate in the merits and rewards of the fathers who have gone before.

My issue with the doctrine is that it represents yet another form of replacement theology--that the Gentile Christians have a hold on God that is outside the scope and sphere of Israel.

 

[yedida]

I have to agree with you. The doctrine is not about necromancy, but about solidarity with Catholics of all ages. It is very similar to the Jewish mentality of "kol Yisrael" and "b'kol dor vador"... that those who live in this--and every--generation participate in the merits and rewards of the fathers who have gone before.

My issue with the doctrine is that it represents yet another form of replacement theology--that the Gentile Christians have a hold on God that is outside the scope and sphere of Israel.

It seems the RCCs of GT don't understand the concept either. You ask them about it and their reply is that we all ask our best friends to pray for us, what they do, asking those who have passed, is no different. Uh, the one is commanded to be done, the other is commanded not to be done.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I don't think you get this yet. It is not "communion with the saints" it is the communion OF the saints. It's about unity in Messiah. We are asked to pray for one another in scripture, and this is merely one small part of being part of the one communion in Messiah. We all have the Messiah as our advocate, and we all can boldly approach- yet we are called to pray for one another. .

I think it's interesting that people think life in the next world has the same limitations as life in this one - and with praying for one another, there's simply no escaping the fact that God often called others to stand in the gap.

 

[Qnts2]

staff edit

What you said was rude, and not scriptural. Women can be teachers and are teachers. Just as women can be prophets, and apostles (with a little a).

The 'OT' as the words of God to people, scripture, stood alone for hundreds of years, before the NT. The Apostles understood what Jesus was teaching in light of the 'OT'. The Bereans studied the 'OT' to see if what Paul, an Apostle, said was true, and Paul called them noble. So, the 'OT' is not subservient to the NT. As a matter of fact, since the Tenakh came first and was Gods words, to verify the NT as also revealed, it must not contradict the established 'OT'/Tenakh. The NT was judged by the Tenakh by the Apostles and all early disciples. And any interpretation of the NT, can not contradict the Tenakh, as both are given by God. Equally, with the same authority. The authority of God.

Is there a New Covenant? Yes. The Tenkah said there would be, so when the NT mentions the New Covenant, that idea, that God would give a New Covenant, is validated by the Tenakh. When the status of the Gentiles was discussed among the Apostles, that status was set by studying the scripture from the Tenakh.