Why an eternal hell? (2)

[Assyrian]

It's in the Bible. Read it and believe it.

Sorry I am not taking your word for it. You will need to show me from the bible itself that the Bible is literal unless clearly otherwise.

 

[FredVB]

Sorry I am not taking your word for it. You will need to show me from the bible itself that the Bible is literal unless clearly otherwise.

From the Bible itself we can know that all the scripture is inspired by Yahweh the God of all, and it is desirable for our doctrines in the faith, reproof of what we are doing which is wrong and for our correction, and for our training in righteousness, for us to be set to do all the good works that we can. God cannot lie. Teachings from the Bible are then literal, with only things merely symbolic and not literal being clearly so in context, as God does not inspire things being said that are deceiving. As Christ taught of hell with there being everlasting misery, it is to be understood literally, even though it does not mean anything about torture. It involves what any fairly deserve before absolute righteousness, with never being clean of all sins from their lives, which cleaning can only come from Christ with being in him and having his righteousness applied.

 

[Assyrian]

From the Bible itself we can know that all the scripture is inspired by Yahweh the God of all, and it is desirable for our doctrines in the faith, reproof of what we are doing which is wrong and for our correction, and for our training in righteousness, for us to be set to do all the good works that we can. God cannot lie. Teachings from the Bible are then literal, with only things merely symbolic and not literal being clearly so in context, as God does not inspire things being said that are deceiving. As Christ taught of hell with there being everlasting misery, it is to be understood literally, even though it does not mean anything about torture. It involves what any fairly deserve before absolute righteousness, with never being clean of all sins from their lives, which cleaning can only come from Christ with being in him and having his righteousness applied.

Thanks for having a go Fred I agree the bible is inspired by God, that it is profitable for teaching and that God can be relied on because he doesn't lie. The problem is going from there to taking everything literally because that assumes that God always speak literally, or at least will indicate clearly when he isn't speaking literally. But he doesn't. Sometimes a parable or metaphor is labelled for us, but often they are not, God expects us to keep up, or at least keep searching. How many time did Jesus start telling a parable or use metaphors without explaining that this was what he was doing? Sometimes he said. Often it was left to the Gospel writer to explain to us readers what Jesus was doing, because Jesus didn't explain it to his listeners. Other times neither Jesus nor the writer explain that he was speaking in a parable or metaphor. If that is how God incarnate spoke should we be surprised if God shows a similar love of poetry, metaphor, symbols, allegory and parable throughout the rest of the bible. As disciples of Jesus ourselves we need to learn a love of metaphor and parable from him as his NT disciples did.

 

[seeingeyes]

As disciples of Jesus ourselves we need to learn a love of metaphor and parable from him as his NT disciples did.

I have never heard this before. Beautiful.

 

[bricklayer]

eternal hell = final separation

 

[FredVB]

Sometimes a parable or metaphor is labelled for us, but often they are not, God expects us to keep up, or at least keep searching. How many time did Jesus start telling a parable or use metaphors without explaining that this was what he was doing? Sometimes he said. Often it was left to the Gospel writer to explain to us readers what Jesus was doing, because Jesus didn't explain it to his listeners. Other times neither Jesus nor the writer explain that he was speaking in a parable or metaphor. If that is how God incarnate spoke should we be surprised if God shows a similar love of poetry, metaphor, symbols, allegory and parable throughout the rest of the bible. As disciples of Jesus ourselves we need to learn a love of metaphor and parable from him as his NT disciples did.

But the problem here is that our Lord Jesus Christ was warning of hell for the unrepenting. Nothing anywhere in scriptures requires or suggests his warnings, which if anything are not beautiful metaphors for us to love, would only be using metaphor for speaking of something else.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

eternal hell = final separation

sort of like the opposite of never being sparated again

 

[Assyrian]

But the problem here is that our Lord Jesus Christ was warning of hell for the unrepenting. Nothing anywhere in scriptures requires or suggests his warnings, which if anything are not beautiful metaphors for us to love,

Not all of Jesus metaphors were pretty. Matt 23:25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence... 27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness.

...would only be using metaphor for speaking of something else.

You need to be careful not to over apply the idea of metaphors speaking about something else. Jesus certainly wasn't talking about graves or washing up, but he was talking about the scribes and pharisees and what they are like on the inside. When he talked about hell, his warnings were still talking about the unrepentant and their eternal destiny. But the imagery he used was the valley of Hinnom, gehenna, the Jerusalem municipal dump, where all the city's rubbish and the carcasses of dead animals were either burnt in the fires that that never went out or were consumed by the worms and maggots that infested the place. The imagery is of the wicked being discarded as worthless rubbish and being destroyed by fire and worms that long outlast the refuse they consume.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

That understanding of the description our Lord gave is common, however for me at least it overlooks the personal pronoun associated with the worm. Not much point in needing or describing personal worms if every worm is seen as outliving what "they consume".

 

[dollarsbill]

Sorry I am not taking your word for it. You will need to show me from the bible itself that the Bible is literal unless clearly otherwise.

Because it is God's word.

 

[dollarsbill]

The eternal fire is clearly literal in the NT and eternal.

 

[Assyrian]

Sorry I am not taking your word for it. You will need to show me from the bible itself that the Bible is literal unless clearly otherwise.

Because it is God's word.

You are still adding in your own ideas. The bible is God's word, but how to you get from there to insisting it must be literal? You need to back that bit up from scripture too.

 

[dollarsbill]

You are still adding in your own ideas. The bible is God's word, but how to you get from there to insisting it must be literal?

How do you insist that it is not literal? God said it. I believe it.

You need to back that bit up from scripture too.

If you can prove the Bible is not to be taken literally then give it a try.

 

[Assyrian]

That understanding of the description our Lord gave is common, however for me at least it overlooks the personal pronoun associated with the worm. Not much point in needing or describing personal worms if every worm is seen as outliving what "they consume".

You can talk about someone's doctor after their death, their murder, or their coroner. The imagery in the phrase goes back to Isaiah 66:24 where the undying worm feeds on the cadavers of God's enemies. I am not sure how much you can safely read into it though. Perhaps it speaks of the thoroughness of God's judgement, that each corpse has its worm or worms. Or it could be saying that God judges each person individually. Or perhaps is it simply a Hebrew way of describing the corruption and decay of each corpse.

 

[Assyrian]

How do you insist that it is not literal? God said it. I believe it.

God said it so it must be true. That doesn't mean it must be literal, because truth can be told in taught in parables and metaphor in poetry, allegory and symbols. Unless the bible actually tells us we should take it all literally, we need to learn from scripture to understand the different ways God speaks to us.

If you can prove the Bible is not to be taken literally then give it a try.

I see you are now trying to reverse the burden of proof when you could not find any basis in scripture for literalism.

Jesus said I am the Good Shepherd. He was a carpenter or builder before he began his ministry as a wandering preacher, there is nothing about him minding sheep, he certainly didn't work as a shepherd who died for his sheep. Jesus took bread and said 'this is my body' even though (sorry Catholics ) it was still a torn up loaf of bread. I have told you that there are metaphor and parables in the bible that aren't labelled as metaphors and parables. We are not meant to take everything literally.

 

[dollarsbill]

God said it so it must be true. That doesn't mean it must be literal, because truth can be told in taught in parables and metaphor in poetry, allegory and symbols. Unless the bible actually tells us we should take it all literally, we need to learn from scripture to understand the different ways God speaks to us.

Exactly.

Jesus said I am the Good Shepherd. He was a carpenter or builder before he began his ministry as a wandering preacher, there is nothing about him minding sheep, or dying for them. Jesus took bread and said 'this is my body' even though (if the Catholics out there will excuse me) it was still a torn up loaf of bread. I have told you that there are metaphor and parables in the bible that aren't labelled as metaphors and parables. We are not meant to take everything literally.

I NEVER said we are to take everything literally. But we are unless there is CLEAR reason not to.

 

[Assyrian]

Exactly.

Since the bible doesn't tell us we should take it all literally, or tell us we should take it all literally unless it is clearly indicated that it isn't literal, how can this literalist doctrine stand?

I NEVER said we are to take everything literally. But we are unless there is CLEAR reason not to.

Yes I know, it gets a bit tedious saying 'take it all literally ...unless it clearly shows you it isn't literal'. Lets just call it 'literalism' and realise that literalism includes the realisation that passages labelled as parable or metaphor are meant to be interpreted as a parable or metaphor. The problem is the the bible has passages that are metaphors and parables that have no label to tell us. I gave you a couple of examples which you haven't addressed.

 

[dollarsbill]

Since the bible doesn't tell us we should take it all literally, or tell us we should take it all literally unless it is clearly indicated that it isn't literal, how can this literalist doctrine stand?

Yes I know, it gets a bit tedious saying 'take it all literally ...unless it clearly shows you it isn't literal'. Lets just call it 'literalism' and realise that literalism includes the realisation that passages labelled as parable or metaphor are meant to be interpreted as a parable or metaphor. The problem is the the bible has passages that are metaphors and parables that have no label to tell us. I gave you a couple of examples which you haven't addressed.

If you care to present examples again I will respond. I thought I did.

 

[Assyrian]

If you care to present examples again I will respond. I thought I did.

Jesus said I am the Good Shepherd. He was a carpenter or builder before he began his ministry as a wandering preacher, there is nothing about him minding sheep, he certainly didn't work as a shepherd who died for his sheep. Jesus took bread and said 'this is my body' even though (sorry Catholics ) it was still a torn up loaf of bread. I have told you that there are metaphor and parables in the bible that aren't labelled as metaphors and parables. We are not meant to take everything literally.​

 

[dollarsbill]

Jesus said I am the Good Shepherd. He was a carpenter or builder before he began his ministry as a wandering preacher, there is nothing about him minding sheep, he certainly didn't work as a shepherd who died for his sheep. Jesus took bread and said 'this is my body' even though (sorry Catholics ) it was still a torn up loaf of bread. I have told you that there are metaphor and parables in the bible that aren't labelled as metaphors and parables. We are not meant to take everything literally. ​

And I agree. IF we have Scriptural reason.