Proof that God exists?

[Danyc]

Double-think, too...

When will the madness end?

 

[someguy14]

So then you do not care about what reality tells us?

Reality is before our eyes. Some marvel at its beauty, study it in depth, define it with new titles and complicated definitions, unnecessarily, in order to gain footholds on subjects that are so easily explained. Professing that it requires intellect to, for example, explain how clouds form, how water moves, how earth shakes, how trees grow, the uses, the benefits. Professing with their actions, that it is intelligent design and yet with their mouths and minds, denying it. Intelligent design is right before our eyes, so that mankind is without excuse. And yet with all of that, the wisdom of the world is as foolishness compared unto God.

"And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:"

"Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?"

"disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,"

 

[trientje]

So if you can't be sure that your beliefs about God are accurate, why do you believe in him? After all, couldn't it be that the in accurate part about your belief in God is the belief he exists?

No, I said that I can't prove that God absolutely exists and you can't prove that he doesn't. that doesn't mean that I can't believe in him. I have my own personal beliefs that he exists. I personally believe that the bible is the word of God and he is very present in my life. All of the reasons I believe has nothing to do with science, or proof. I come to believe in God through faith. My belief in God would not stand up under scientific scrutiny or logic in the eyes of an atheist or in the secular world. But that does not mean my faith does not exist and for me is very real.

 

[trientje]

No, I said that I can't prove that God absolutely exists and you can't prove that he doesn't. that doesn't mean that I can't believe in him. I have my own personal beliefs that he exists. I personally believe that the bible is the word of God and he is very present in my life. All of the reasons I believe has nothing to do with science, or proof. I come to believe in God through faith. My belief in God would not stand up under scientific scrutiny or logic in the eyes of an atheist or in the secular world. But that does not mean my faith does not exist and for me is very real.

Sorry, I just posted in the wrong place. Sorry!

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Reality is before our eyes. Some marvel at its beauty, study it in depth, define it with new titles and complicated definitions, unnecessarily, in order to gain footholds on subjects that are so easily explained. Professing that it requires intellect to, for example, explain how clouds form, how water moves, how earth shakes, how trees grow, the uses, the benefits. Professing with their actions, that it is intelligent design and yet with their mouths and minds, denying it. Intelligent design is right before our eyes, so that mankind is without excuse. And yet with all of that, the wisdom of the world is as foolishness compared unto God.

"And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:"

"Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?"

"disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,"

Wait a minute... are you saying that it's not a good idea to study cloud formation, earthquakes, tree growth, Etc., or that it requires no intellect in order to understand these phenomena because they are so easily explained?

 

[trientje]

Why? It's exactly the same thing as what you said. Therefore what you said is silliness too!

Glad we got that settled!

What? What did I say that was silly?

 

[Tiberius]

What? What did I say that was silly?

You asked Danyc to prove that your god doesn't exist. Post 117.

Archaeopteryx then asked you to prove that Zeus doesn't exist. Post 145.

You responded by saying that such a request was silliness. Post 149.

However, in both cases a person is being asked to disprove the existence of a god they do not believe in. if it's silly for Archaeopteryx to ask you to disprove the existence of Zeus, then it's equally as silly for you to ask Danyc to disprove the existence of God.

And that's quite apart from the stupid logic of saying that God must exist simply because no one's been able to disprove him to your satisfaction.

 

[Tiberius]

No, I said that I can't prove that God absolutely exists and you can't prove that he doesn't.

A refreshing breath of honesty! Well done! (And I really mean that, by the way.)

that doesn't mean that I can't believe in him. I have my own personal beliefs that he exists. I personally believe that the bible is the word of God and he is very present in my life. All of the reasons I believe has nothing to do with science, or proof. I come to believe in God through faith. My belief in God would not stand up under scientific scrutiny or logic in the eyes of an atheist or in the secular world. But that does not mean my faith does not exist and for me is very real.

And I won't argue that you have the right to believe in god if you so desire.

However, I was asking how you are so sure that your beliefs are true, that there really is a God who exists outside of your mind. I was never trying to say that you don't have the right to believe.

 

[Davian]

Just not in any way that you can demonstrate, apparently. Does not this phrase mean anything to you?

Yes I know.

So you just delete it from your reply, hoping no one would notice? Brilliant.

However, I do not have to demonstrate the things I am saying to you because you know them to be true.

More religious assertions. Absolute nonsense. You started all those threads trying to do just that, and failed. Now you resort to telling me what I think - and get it wrong. lol.

Does not the theist's handbooks say something about not getting both feet into one's mouth at the same time?

I do wonder at the arrogance of those, such as yourself, who not only assert that they can tell others what they think, get it wrong consistently, are informed of that fact, yet continue to repeat their blunders.

Parsimony would indicate that you cannot demonstrate the truth of your claims for the simple reason that you are not right.

It is important because a good case can be made for stating that everyone wants to know why they exist! I cannot think of one person who has ever maintained the position of complete apathy as to why they are living and breathing and are conscious human beings.

Do you desire to know why you exist, or have you accepted the fact that you just do and that there is no answer or rhyme or reason behind your existence except that your parents decided to engage in sexual relations and as a result, you were born after approximately 9 months in your mother's womb?

I see no reason to think otherwise.

The fact that you have to look for a reason as to why the question: "Why do we exist?" is important is indicative of your unwillingness to see what has been made so clearly evident to all.

No, I looked for a reason where you should have provided a reason, and found nothing.

Did I? Where did I say this?

If I seek to use science for any other end, then I make it an idol, I make it to be a god who I worship.

 

[Tiberius]

I speak not for the experiences of your girlfriend. Only she can.

What I am saying is that no other religion is comparable with regards to the indwelling Christ of Christianity.

God living inside of a person is not a doctrine that any other religion teaches.

And this I know to be true because I have researched them.

Many people of all different faiths have felt the spirit of their god within them. To claim that Christianity is the only such religion is quite arrogant, I think.

Of course I would! Why would I not? I must follow the evidence where it leads me.

And if the evidence led you to the conclusion that your beliefs were wrong, what would you do?

 

[Tiberius]

Reality is before our eyes. Some marvel at its beauty, study it in depth, define it with new titles and complicated definitions, unnecessarily, in order to gain footholds on subjects that are so easily explained. Professing that it requires intellect to, for example, explain how clouds form, how water moves, how earth shakes, how trees grow, the uses, the benefits. Professing with their actions, that it is intelligent design and yet with their mouths and minds, denying it. Intelligent design is right before our eyes, so that mankind is without excuse. And yet with all of that, the wisdom of the world is as foolishness compared unto God.

"And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:"

"Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?"

"disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,"

Intelligent design is wrong.

 

[Davian]

So a friend is someone to whom you say:

- If we ever disagree on anything, ever, you are wrong.
- I have the truth. I will never change my mind on this.
- I cannot be wrong.
- I will fight you in the courts, in the classroom, in politics.
- I will pull my children from school and homeschool if necessary.

But we are friends.

Does that sound right?

Depends on your definition of friend.

In this case, it would appear that you have used one that resembles that of 'doormat'.

It also depends on your definition of science.

My definition includes things that are demonstrably true, and falsifiable.

A friend would not say the above without warrant.

And what gives you warrant? A feeling that you "know the truth"? Do you have something to show that you are peddling anything other than religion?

 

[Tiberius]

It also depends on your definition of science.

Oh, come on, science is easy to define.

1. Observe something in the real world.
2. Using what you observed, come up with an hypothesis that might explain what you observed.
3. Test your hypothesis to see if you can show that it is wrong.
4. If you try and try and try and try many times to prove your hypothesis is wrong, but can't, then you can be fairly sure that you have the right explanation.
5. See if your hypothesis allows you to predict anything.
6. Go and see if those predicted things are really there. If they are there, then more support!
7. At this point, you may call your hypothesis a theory.
8. If you are able to prove your hypothesis wrong, or if the things that were predicted were not found, then you may need to adjust or even discard the hypothesis. If this is the case, go back to step 2. You may even want to go back to step 1 and make some more observations!

This is science.

 

[quatona]

If I was on a journey, headed to a specific location, and I was going in the wrong direction, I would want someone to stop me and say hey man you're going the wrong way, you should go this way. If what he was saying sounded like it had any shred of validity in it, I would be compelled to check my own map and directions and compare mine with his. If I was wrong, I would be compelled to amend my course, if I really wanted to get to my destination.

A lot of people here put a lot of effort in helping you with that problem.

As I stated in the apologia, my intent was to simply offer one argument for the existence of God. That is all.

Yes.

I answered objections to it and tried to clarify some hard points, but I have never assumed that I could convince anyone of anything.

And now you resort to preaching and to taking comfort in your assumption that you can´t convince anyone anyway - while there is a simple reason why you couldn´t convince anyone of the soundness of your argument: it was poor and fallacious.

I have not tried to get away with anything quatona. I have endeavored to show you that atheism is fraught with many assumptions and inconsistencies, but beyond that, I know that much of what I have done here is going to be beneficial not to you, but to other people who have witnessed the events that have transpired here in these posts. It is for those that I labor.

Yes, as I said: Convincing the already convinced, preaching to the choir.

 

[Danyc]

Never have I seen more childish conduct on this website than in Elio here. Except, perhaps, in dad or AVET.

 

[someguy14]

It is God alone that giveth the increase.

 

[Tiberius]

It is God alone that giveth the increase.

I have no idea what this means.

 

[Skavau]

Your whole post was just rendered void with your last sentence.

You accuse me of a low opinion of human dignity when I maintain that we are all special, valuble, and precious beyond comprehension.

Then you emphatically state that we are a dignified species of primates as if this did more justice to the dignity of humanity!

You miss out the part where you also think we're all wretched sinners determined to all dwell in everlasting torment unless we scapegoat our sins onto Jesus.

Christianity plays on both our pride and our humility and exposes the worst of them.

 

[Skavau]

If telling you the truth is evidence of not being humble in your sight, then I am not humble nor ever will be in your sight.

We are to speak the truth in love. If in the process of doing this, you become resentful or offended by my words which are spoken in sincerity and truth, then the fault lies within you, not myself.

Christ offended a great many men while speaking to them the truth in love. So offended and jealous and envious and resentful of Him in fact, that they had Him crucified!

Yet He prayed for them, while they were nailing Him to the cross.

Therefore in this it is made manifest who is acting in love and who is responding in hate.

Gadarene tells you directly that your behaviour towards him caused his hostility towards you. You then respond with complete sanctimony and pseudo-piety and compare your actions on here in lying to others to Jesus in response, completely missing any offense you've caused and coming across as grotesquely arrogant and prideful.

He did not say that your preaching caused his hostility. He said that you lying about him caused hostility and you have lied - not just about him but about every atheist here. You've said we worship science. You've said we don't care about truth. You've said and hinted we secretly believe in God amongst other things. When you keep doing that you will cause hostility towards you.

Where does your ego end and Christianity begin?

 

[Skavau]

This is how religion falters so often: it makes otherwise normally moral and sensible people behave in completely immoral and anti-social ways towards others and worse it convinces them that their behaviour is not just acceptable, but admirable and so they do so with pride and sanctimony.