Proof that God exists?

[Tiberius]

Oh, I most certainly do!

You see, I honestly cannot allow my heart to rejoice in that which my mind rejects.

I would be a fool to be a follower of Christ if He was a liar or a talebearer or a person who led me to a worldview that did not correspond to reality.

I assure you, I have a mind and I also am knowledgable on many of the existing worldviews and philosophies that men do teach and adhere to.

I have tried them all, and found them wanting.

I have tried Christ, and thus far, He has never failed to do abundantly above all that I could have ever imagined He could do in me, through me, and for me.

So then what do you do if reality tells you something that contradicts what you believe?

 

[Elioenai26]

So writers of the bible did not get the details right?

How did you arrive at that conclusion from my post Davian?

 

[Elioenai26]

So then what do you do if reality tells you something that contradicts what you believe?

Maybe if you could help me understand what you mean when you say "if reality tells me", I do not understand what you mean.

Are you saying what scientists conclude concerning their research?

 

[Davian]

Science is interpreted by scientists, which are men and women who each possess their own individual views regarding reality.

And scientific methodology provides checks and balances, and for falsification.

Science is beneficial for learning how our world works and even how we work, but science cannot answer the most significant questions in life Davian.

Significant questions fabricated and 'answered' by a religion. Your religion, of course. Because you have 'the truth'.

Science is a discipline that God has given us the capacity to utilize to glorify Him in, not to glorify ourselves.

Just not in any way that you can demonstrate, apparently.

If I seek to use science for any other end, then I make it an idol, I make it to be a god who I worship. Why worship a method over and above the one who makes the method possible? Should not the greater be reverenced over the lesser?

Why would one worship a method?

 

[Elioenai26]

And scientific methodology provides checks and balances, and for falsification.

Yes you are right it surely does. And scientists have the God given capacity to choose to allow themselves to be guided by these inherent checks and balances.

Significant questions fabricated and 'answered' by a religion. Your religion, of course. Because you have 'the truth'.

I do not believe the question for example: "Why do we exist?" should be dismissed as a "fabrication". In fact, I believe a good case could be made that this is a very important question.

Why would one worship a method?

I find myself asking the same question!?

 

[Tiberius]

Maybe if you could help me understand what you mean when you say "if reality tells me", I do not understand what you mean.

Are you saying what scientists conclude concerning their research?

What reality tells you means what you learn about the world by looking at the world.

Honestly, I thought that was pretty clear.

 

[Danyc]

What reality tells you means what you learn about the world by looking at the world.

Honestly, I thought that was pretty clear.

Speaking with the religious will be the only time when the meaning of 'reality' will be expressly unclear.

 

[Elioenai26]

What reality tells you means what you learn about the world by looking at the world.

Honestly, I thought that was pretty clear.

Speaking with the religious will be the only time when the meaning of 'reality' will be expressly unclear.

Reality tells me that God has created men upright, but they have sought out many devices. It also tells me that God has set eternity in the heart's of men.

It also tells me that:

God’s Wrath Against Mankind

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

And...

The Works and the Word of God.
For the choir director. A Psalm of David.

1The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
3There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
4Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,
5Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber;
It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6Its rising is from one end of the heavens,
And its circuit to the other end of them;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.
7The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether.
10They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb.
11Moreover, by them Your servant is warned;
In keeping them there is great reward.
12Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults.
13Also keep back Your servant from presumptuous sins;
Let them not rule over me;
Then I will be blameless,
And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.
14Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight,
O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.

 

[Davian]

In many posts you have been promoting the big bang theory. How is this not contradictory with the genesis stories in your bible? Did the writers of the bible get the details right, or did they not?

Moses, who by the inspiration of God, compiled the Genesis accounts of creation writes nothing that contradicts the Big Bang explantion of the universe. The Standard Model simply states that all space all time and all matter came into existence at some point in the distant past, just like the Bible says.

I have supplied numerous quotes from scientists who have no stock whatsoever in Christianity who have confessed that this Standard Model lends credibility to the Genesis accounts.

So writers of the bible did not get the details right?

How did you arrive at that conclusion from my post Davian?

I asked, did the writers of the bible get the details right?

I then saw some preaching, some hand waving, and a reference to the quote mining you have done. And show me where the standard model of particle physics states anything 'just like the bible', lol.

In the absence of a 'yes', the answer is 'no'.

Do you side with the science you appealed to for your (WLC's) cosmological argument, or not?

 

[Elioenai26]

I asked, did the writers of the bible get the details right?

I then saw some preaching, some hand waving, and a reference to the quote mining you have done. And show me where the standard model of particle physics states anything 'just like the bible', lol.

In the absence of a 'yes', the answer is 'no'.

Do you side with the science you appealed to for your (WLC's) cosmological argument, or not?

I am sorry but I do not understand what you are asking.

Science and Christianity are not foes, they are companions.

They are not enemies, they are friends.

 

[Tiberius]

Reality tells me that God has created men upright, but they have sought out many devices. It also tells me that God has set eternity in the heart's of men.

It also tells me that:

God’s Wrath Against Mankind

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

And...

The Works and the Word of God.
For the choir director. A Psalm of David.

1The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
3There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
4Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,
5Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber;
It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6Its rising is from one end of the heavens,
And its circuit to the other end of them;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.
7The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether.
10They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb.
11Moreover, by them Your servant is warned;
In keeping them there is great reward.
12Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults.
13Also keep back Your servant from presumptuous sins;
Let them not rule over me;
Then I will be blameless,
And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.
14Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight,
O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.

Is that reality or the Bible which is telling you these things?

 

[Gadarene]

I have a young brother who is nearly twenty, same age as you.

If my brother was wrong, if my brother was heading in the wrong direction and was listening to and accepting ideas that were going to cause him to abandon the One who created him, I would want someone to help him, I would want someone to encourage him and be a friend to him and love him.

I would not want someone to say hey buddy look here, just do what you feel, its ok, dont be concerned about knowing the truth, dont be concerned about those imaginary things called eternity and heaven or hell.

I wouldnt want someone to tell him hey man we are all just advanced monkeys, pick a lifestyle that makes you feel good and live it up! What does it matter?

No no, I would want someone to tell him the truth so that he would be able to make an informed decision.

Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing.

If I was heading in a wrong direction, I would want someone to save me straightaway, instead of tell lies about me, and only after being called on them repeatedly try and pretend to be concerned for me.

Stop trying to ingratiate yourself. You cocked this one up, Elioenai. Deal with it, instead of insisting that we owe you some response to this touchy-feely crap.

 

[Davian]

Yes you are right it surely does. And scientists have the God given capacity to choose to allow themselves to be guided by these inherent checks and balances.

Just not in any way that you can demonstrate, apparently. Does not this phrase mean anything to you?

I do not believe the question for example: "Why do we exist?" should be dismissed as a "fabrication".

That just begs the question: what makes "Why do we exist?" a valid question?

In fact, I believe a good case could be made that this is a very important question.

<looks for a good case for such a question - sees none>

I find myself asking the same question!?

You said you would worship it, not me.

 

[Gadarene]

If I seek to use science for any other end, then I make it an idol, I make it to be a god who I worship.

If you mangle every accepted definition of the word "worship" in the process, then sure.

Why worship a method over and above the one who makes the method possible? Should not the greater be reverenced over the lesser?

Well it's quite simple really - there is no reason to think that anyone "made" the method in the sense that you are claiming, and in addition, we don't worship it.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Science is interpreted by scientists, which are men and women who each possess their own individual views regarding reality.

Science is beneficial for learning how our world works and even how we work, but science cannot answer the most significant questions in life Davian.

Whereas religion can pretend to answer them.

 

[Elioenai26]

Is that reality or the Bible which is telling you these things?

God speaks reality as we know it into existence, and then speaks to us in His word's.

This is the only true illumination, this is the knowledge and wisdom which comes from above and is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. James 3:17

 

[Danyc]

God speaks reality as we know it into existence, and then speaks to us in His word's.

This is the only true illumination, this is the knowledge and wisdom which comes from above and is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. James 3:17

And how do you know this is true?

 

[Elioenai26]

Whereas religion can pretend to answer them.

Yes you are correct, "religion" can pretend to know and give answer to those important questions.

When you lump a living, loving, intimate relationship with Christ in with these "religions", you misconstrue what it means to be a disciple of Christ.

I for one agree with all of you in that religion is merely a means by which men attempt to answer those important questions of life. Some religions are closer to the truth than others. There is only one truth however, and that Truth has been the number one cause for division and unity amongst men for nearly 2,000 years.

 

[Danyc]

Yes you are correct, "religion" can pretend to know and give answer to those important questions.

When you lump a living, loving, intimate relationship with Christ in with these "religions", you misconstrue what it means to be a disciple of Christ.

I for one agree with all of you in that religion is merely a means by which men attempt to answer those important questions of life. Some religions are closer to the truth than others. There is only one truth however, and that Truth has been the number one cause for division and unity amongst men for nearly 2,000 years.

Please. It's religion. Deal with it.

 

[Gadarene]

Yes you are correct, "religion" can pretend to know and give answer to those important questions.

Right, and worship of Christ is itself a religion.