Proof that God exists?

[Tiberius]

You are incorrect. I did not say that.

I said that if scientists come to a conclusion that is contradictory to what God has revealed to us concerning the matter, then I will not accept it because it is a lie.

So then you do not care about what reality tells us?

 

[Elioenai26]

So why do you expect us to be convinced by anything you say?

If you are not convinced that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, then I do not expect to convince you of anything.

It is no Christian's place to convince you of anything Skavau.

We defend the faith and give an answer to everyone who asks us about the hope we have with meekness and love, but we know that we have no ability within ourselves or of ourselves to convince a person to surrender their lives to Christ.

 

[Elioenai26]

So then you do not care about what reality tells us?

Oh, I most certainly do!

You see, I honestly cannot allow my heart to rejoice in that which my mind rejects.

I would be a fool to be a follower of Christ if He was a liar or a talebearer or a person who led me to a worldview that did not correspond to reality.

I assure you, I have a mind and I also am knowledgable on many of the existing worldviews and philosophies that men do teach and adhere to.

I have tried them all, and found them wanting.

I have tried Christ, and thus far, He has never failed to do abundantly above all that I could have ever imagined He could do in me, through me, and for me.

 

[quatona]

If you are not convinced that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, then I do not expect to convince you of anything.

It is no Christian's place to convince you of anything Skavau.

So your entire "apologia" and "evidence" and all your efforts to screw together and defend arguments for your God´s existence were not meant to convince anyone but directed only at those who were already convinced? That´s exactly what it looked like to me, right from the start: It´s the stuff you may get away with in Sunday School and when standing in the pulpit preaching to the choir, but nowhere else.

 

[Skavau]

If you are not convinced that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, then I do not expect to convince you of anything.

It is no Christian's place to convince you of anything Skavau.

Then your reason for being here is?

We defend the faith and give an answer to everyone who asks us about the hope we have with meekness and love, but we know that we have no ability within ourselves or of ourselves to convince a person to surrender their lives to Christ.

Okay.

Not sure what that has to do with you pimping the cosmological and teleological argument. If not to convince others why bring them up so much? Or try to disparage atheism and atheists so often?

 

[Elioenai26]

I think I am beginning to understand it. Why you believe and and why you make these claims is addressed by science:

Evolutionary psychology of religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The evolutionary psychology of religion is the study of religious belief using evolutionary psychology principles. It is one approach to the psychology of religion. As with all other organs and organ functions, the brain and cognition's functional structure have been argued to have a genetic basis, and are therefore subject to the effects of natural selection and evolution. Like other organs and tissues, this functional structure should be universally shared amongst humans and should solve important problems of survival and reproduction. Evolutionary psychologists seek to understand cognitive processes, religion in this case, by understanding the survival and reproductive functions they might serve."

Religion is a product, or byproduct, of evolution.

No doubt Davian, religion is indeed many things.

What it is, I do not know, I only know that once I was blind, and now I see.

When Christ came into my life, He affected a change in me. I know how I used to be, I know how I used to view the world. I know that I could not have changed the way I thought and felt about people. I hated everyone and everything, even myself.

But now I love, and this love I know is not my own, but the true love which flows from God, for God is love.

This love comes not from my mind, or even my own heart, but from God. Therefore, I can testify that this love is supernatural and is limitless and infinite as God Himself.

I understand exactly what your point is Davian, I at one point in time placed my hope in science, but my hope was not fulfilled. Science can give an answer as to how things work and happen the way they do, science cannot answer why they work or why they happen the way they do, nor can science supply anyone with true meaning and true purpose. My mind, my heart needed more than just an explanation, I needed to know why life was the way it was. I needed this because God had set eternity in my heart, just as He has with every other person.

Science ends where man's ability to reason and observe ends.

The spiritual life of faith picks a person up where one's physical capactiy of sight and reason and knowledge leaves them and takes them to wondrous and marvelous places where visions of the eternal abide and cannot be expressed in mere words.

I also know that you have chosen the path that you are on, just as I have chosen, by the grace of God, the path that I am on.

I have only the best wishes for you.

I will always maintain that the best apologetic is a changed life. If you had known me before Christ saved me, you would surely be convinced that something marvelous had taken place inside of me.

 

[Danyc]

Elio has shown his true colors. None of us are surprised. He will not be reasoned with. Why we continue with him is beyond me. He has already said that no amount of evidence will sway him.

Disgusting, deplorable, willful ignorance. I might vomit.

 

[Elioenai26]

Then your reason for being here is?


Okay.

Not sure what that has to do with you pimping the cosmological and teleological argument. If not to convince others why bring them up so much? Or try to disparage atheism and atheists so often?

In the beginning of the apologia, I noted that my intent was to offer a defense of the Christian faith. The particular defense was a philosophical argument with scientific support for God as Creator of the universe.

As I have said several times, I know personally, that no person has ever accepted Christ because of a philosophical argument.

Christ does not enter into a person's life via that manner.

I have no power in and of myself to convert, or convince anyone of anything. That is not my place. Nor have I ever presumed to attempt to do so, for that would be endeavoring to accomplish only that which God can affect.

 

[Elioenai26]

So your entire "apologia" and "evidence" and all your efforts to screw together and defend arguments for your God´s existence were not meant to convince anyone but directed only at those who were already convinced? That´s exactly what it looked like to me, right from the start: It´s the stuff you may get away with in Sunday School and when standing in the pulpit preaching to the choir, but nowhere else.

I am sorry if I have made you angry or offended.

If I was on a journey, headed to a specific location, and I was going in the wrong direction, I would want someone to stop me and say hey man you're going the wrong way, you should go this way. If what he was saying sounded like it had any shred of validity in it, I would be compelled to check my own map and directions and compare mine with his. If I was wrong, I would be compelled to amend my course, if I really wanted to get to my destination.

As I stated in the apologia, my intent was to simply offer one argument for the existence of God. That is all.

I answered objections to it and tried to clarify some hard points, but I have never assumed that I could convince anyone of anything.

I have not tried to get away with anything quatona. I have endeavored to show you that atheism is fraught with many assumptions and inconsistencies, but beyond that, I know that much of what I have done here is going to be beneficial not to you, but to other people who have witnessed the events that have transpired here in these posts. It is for those that I labor.

 

[Elioenai26]

In many posts you have been promoting the big bang theory. How is this not contradictory with the genesis stories in your bible? Did the writers of the bible get the details right, or did they not?

Moses, who by the inspiration of God, compiled the Genesis accounts of creation writes nothing that contradicts the Big Bang explantion of the universe. The Standard Model simply states that all space all time and all matter came into existence at some point in the distant past, just like the Bible says.

I have supplied numerous quotes from scientists who have no stock whatsoever in Christianity who have confessed that this Standard Model lends credibility to the Genesis accounts.

 

[Elioenai26]

Elio has shown his true colors. None of us are surprised. He will not be reasoned with. Why we continue with him is beyond me. He has already said that no amount of evidence will sway him.

Disgusting, deplorable, willful ignorance. I might vomit.

I have a young brother who is nearly twenty, same age as you.

If my brother was wrong, if my brother was heading in the wrong direction and was listening to and accepting ideas that were going to cause him to abandon the One who created him, I would want someone to help him, I would want someone to encourage him and be a friend to him and love him.

I would not want someone to say hey buddy look here, just do what you feel, its ok, dont be concerned about knowing the truth, dont be concerned about those imaginary things called eternity and heaven or hell.

I wouldnt want someone to tell him hey man we are all just advanced monkeys, pick a lifestyle that makes you feel good and live it up! What does it matter?

No no, I would want someone to tell him the truth so that he would be able to make an informed decision.

Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing.

 

[Skavau]

I have a young brother who is nearly twenty, same age as you.

If my brother was wrong, if my brother was heading in the wrong direction and was listening to and accepting ideas that were going to cause him to abandon the One who created him, I would want someone to help him, I would want someone to encourage him and be a friend to him and love him.

I would not want someone to say hey buddy look here, just do what you feel, its ok, dont be concerned about knowing the truth, dont be concerned about those imaginary things called eternity and heaven or hell.

I wouldnt want someone to tell him hey man we are all just advanced monkeys, pick a lifestyle that makes you feel good and live it up! What does it matter?

No no, I would want someone to tell him the truth so that he would be able to make an informed decision.

Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing.

Yes, so you keep pointing out your benevolence.

Point is though is that no-one has any reason to take your claims seriously.

 

[Elioenai26]

Yes, so you keep pointing out your benevolence.

Point is though is that no-one has any reason to take your claims seriously.

Then do not take them seriously. I will not be offended whatsoever.

You see Skavau, the beauty of God creating us in His image, is that we are volitional creatures. We have the capacity to choose between two or more options.

We also shall always retain the right to choose otherwise.

If we are free to love God, we are free to hate Him.

If we are free to worship Him, we are free to refuse to worship Him.

If we are free to bless and praise Him, we are free to blaspheme Him.

If we are free to surrender our lives to Him, we are free to conduct ourselves according to our own desires.

 

[Davian]

I think I am beginning to understand it. Why you believe and and why you make these claims is addressed by science:

Evolutionary psychology of religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The evolutionary psychology of religion is the study of religious belief using evolutionary psychology principles. It is one approach to the psychology of religion. As with all other organs and organ functions, the brain and cognition's functional structure have been argued to have a genetic basis, and are therefore subject to the effects of natural selection and evolution. Like other organs and tissues, this functional structure should be universally shared amongst humans and should solve important problems of survival and reproduction. Evolutionary psychologists seek to understand cognitive processes, religion in this case, by understanding the survival and reproductive functions they might serve."

Religion is a product, or byproduct, of evolution.

No doubt Davian, religion is indeed many things.

What it is, I do not know, I only know that once I was blind, and now I see.

When Christ came into my life, He affected a change in me. I know how I used to be, I know how I used to view the world. I know that I could not have changed the way I thought and felt about people. I hated everyone and everything, even myself.

But now I love, and this love I know is not my own, but the true love which flows from God, for God is love.

This love comes not from my mind, or even my own heart, but from God. Therefore, I can testify that this love is supernatural and is limitless and infinite as God Himself.

I understand exactly what your point is Davian, I at one point in time placed my hope in science, but my hope was not fulfilled. Science can give an answer as to how things work and happen the way they do, science cannot answer why they work or why they happen the way they do, nor can science supply anyone with true meaning and true purpose. My mind, my heart needed more than just an explanation, I needed to know why life was the way it was. I needed this because God had set eternity in my heart, just as He has with every other person.

Science ends where man's ability to reason and observe ends.

The spiritual life of faith picks a person up where one's physical capactiy of sight and reason and knowledge leaves them and takes them to wondrous and marvelous places where visions of the eternal abide and cannot be expressed in mere words.

I also know that you have chosen the path that you are on, just as I have chosen, by the grace of God, the path that I am on.

I have only the best wishes for you.

I will always maintain that the best apologetic is a changed life. If you had known me before Christ saved me, you would surely be convinced that something marvelous had taken place inside of me.

As I said, why you believe and and why you make these claims is addressed by science. You have provided nothing to contradict that.

Keep preaching, if you like. But take it to the Exploring Christianity forum, if you care.

 

[Danyc]

I have a young brother who is nearly twenty, same age as you.

If my brother was wrong, if my brother was heading in the wrong direction and was listening to and accepting ideas that were going to cause him to abandon the One who created him, I would want someone to help him, I would want someone to encourage him and be a friend to him and love him.

I would not want someone to say hey buddy look here, just do what you feel, its ok, dont be concerned about knowing the truth, dont be concerned about those imaginary things called eternity and heaven or hell.

I wouldnt want someone to tell him hey man we are all just advanced monkeys, pick a lifestyle that makes you feel good and live it up! What does it matter?

No no, I would want someone to tell him the truth so that he would be able to make an informed decision.

Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing.

First of all, you need to erase the words 'just', 'only, and 'merely' from your vocabulary from the time being, until you can learn to use them with honesty.

You're right that life is more than food and the body is more than clothing. Stop with the straw men. STOP. It is getting old and it is repugnant, repulsive and nauseating. You seem to have an incredibly low opinion of human dignity.

There is meaning without deities. All of us here have given our own lives meaning. We are not husks. We are not soulless wretches. Stop treating us like we are nothing without the 'benevolence' of your imaginary friend.

We are all a part of a dignified species of primate that has places to go and progress to make.

 

[Elioenai26]

As I said, why you believe and and why you make these claims is addressed by science. You have provided nothing to contradict that.

Keep preaching, if you like. But take it to the Exploring Christianity forum, if you care.

Science is interpreted by scientists, which are men and women who each possess their own individual views regarding reality.

Science is beneficial for learning how our world works and even how we work, but science cannot answer the most significant questions in life Davian.

Science is a discipline that God has given us the capacity to utilize to glorify Him in, not to glorify ourselves.

If I seek to use science for any other end, then I make it an idol, I make it to be a god who I worship. Why worship a method over and above the one who makes the method possible? Should not the greater be reverenced over the lesser?

 

[Elioenai26]

First of all, you need to erase the words 'just', 'only, and 'merely' from your vocabulary from the time being, until you can learn to use them with honesty.

You're right that life is more than food and the body is more than clothing. Stop with the straw men. STOP. It is getting old and it is repugnant, repulsive and nauseating. You seem to have an incredibly low opinion of human dignity.

There is meaning without deities. All of us here have given our own lives meaning. We are not husks. We are not soulless wretches. Stop treating us like we are nothing without the 'benevolence' of your imaginary friend.

We are all a part of a dignified species of primate that has places to go and progress to make.

Your whole post was just rendered void with your last sentence.

You accuse me of a low opinion of human dignity when I maintain that we are all special, valuble, and precious beyond comprehension.

Then you emphatically state that we are a dignified species of primates as if this did more justice to the dignity of humanity!

 

[Danyc]

Science is interpreted by scientists, which are men and women who each possess their own individual views regarding reality.

Yup, and some of those scientists, even quite notable ones, such as Dr. Francis Collins, who headed the Human Genome Project (and fully understands and accepts Evolutionary Theory as the best explanation for the diversity of life on this planet), are devout christians.

Try again.

 

[Danyc]

Your whole post was just rendered void with your last sentence.

You accuse me of a low opinion of human dignity when I maintain that we are all special, valuble, and precious beyond comprehension.

Then you emphatically state that we are a dignified species of primates as if this did more justice to the dignity of humanity!

I would apologize for my acceptance of our true nature. But that would be ridiculous.

Live a lie if you want. Fine. Whatever. The rest of us will move on without you.

 

[Davian]

In many posts you have been promoting the big bang theory. How is this not contradictory with the genesis stories in your bible? Did the writers of the bible get the details right, or did they not?

Moses, who by the inspiration of God, compiled the Genesis accounts of creation writes nothing that contradicts the Big Bang explantion of the universe. The Standard Model simply states that all space all time and all matter came into existence at some point in the distant past, just like the Bible says.

I have supplied numerous quotes from scientists who have no stock whatsoever in Christianity who have confessed that this Standard Model lends credibility to the Genesis accounts.

So writers of the bible did not get the details right?