What is your view of Christmas...

[ContraMundum]

Exactly. It can be viewed as a Christian celebration of the birth of their messiah, or it can be viewed as a pagan festival. Hopefully most see it in the former light.

You get this. I get it. I don't get why others don't get it.

But what about all the food?

Yes, the food is always a temptation.

 

[GodActsOnMe]

It is an enigma to me that anyone would still embrace something even though they know it is pagan. And that is why the Catholic church designated Dec. 25th - winter solstice as the day to celebrate. They knew that people didn't care about mixing pagan and holy. Go figure.
Definition of enigma:
1
: an obscure speech or writing
2
: something hard to understand or explain

3
: an inscrutable or mysterious person

I don't care if you have a problem in my celebrating it.

Additionally, I do not see why you posted this definition. I used the word correctly.

 

[visionary]

I don't care if you have a problem in my celebrating it.

Additionally, I do not see why you posted this definition. I used the word correctly.

It is an enigma to understand why you are posting this in an area where the people do not participate in its celebration because they have already celebrated it within God's assigned feast.

 

[GodActsOnMe]

It is an enigma to understand why you are posting this in an area where the people do not participate in its celebration because they have already celebrated it within God's assigned feast.

I answered the question.

 

[visionary]

I answered the question.

I never asked the question.

 

[yedida]

I don't care if you have a problem in my celebrating it.

Additionally, I do not see why you posted this definition. I used the word correctly.

If you're going to be confrontational, you're in the wrong forum. You are a guest here, it would behoove you to act properly, as a guest.

 

[ChavaK]

If it is idolatrous for Jews, why isn't it idolatrous for gentiles?

Assuming this is in response to my post, of course this isn't a subject that can be discussed on this forum without breaking every rule there is

I will say two things: I view gentiles differently inside the land vs. outside of it. And G-d has different paths for different people, although all will end up at the same point in the end

 

[Lulav]

Assuming this is in response to my post, of course this isn't a subject that can be discussed on this forum without breaking every rule there is

I will say two things: I view gentiles differently inside the land vs. outside of it. And G-d has different paths for different people, although all will end up at the same point in the end

I wouldn't tempt you to break the rules, basically it was in general, but more addressed to Qnts2.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I acknowledge the fact that it is based off of a pagan holiday, due to the expansion of the Christian faith.

I still celebrate it, due to the enigma that is Jesus Christ's actual birth day.

The Syriac bishop Jacob bar-Salibi wrote in the 12th century:

"It was a custom of the Pagans to celebrate on the same 25 December the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity. In these solemnities and revelries the Christians also took part. Accordingly when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnised on that day."

​

The day is called Dies Natalis Sol Invicti. That said, what occurred in the early Church was on celebrating the Person/Work and Birth of Messiah--and anything else done in remembrance of him....or done to counter the focus of pagan worship by making times of Christian worship on the same days as pagans so focus would be upon the Lord...all of that is fine, IMHO.

In regards to Jacob bar-Salibi's thoughts, what he imagined was that, during the last years of paganism, the cult of Sol remained so popular that the Church Fathers could only neutralize its celebration on the traditional winter solstice of December 25th by setting the birthday of Christ on that very same day. Essentially, they took a day away used to worship a false god--and with the institutionalization of Christianity and the councils being called together to choose a day for celebration (as they wanted to find ways to make Christiantiy prominent), they chose a day where everyone was naturally prepared for worshipping someone other than Christ--with the goal being that Christ would take precedience in the eyes of the state....and in their views, sooner rather than later, Christ trumped Sol.

All of this becomes even more relevant in light of how everything prior to the era of Christianity being dominant involved believers being on the margins and severely perseucted/killed continually. They had little options and were often trying to survive, be it Jewish believers or Gentile. When they were finally able to have a significant platform, they took advantage of it....

In many ways, what occurred is similar to the invention of the internet/radio by those in the world---with it being used to spread ideologies counter to the mind of the Lord--and believers who have throughout the centuries sought to make it possible for believers to have a voice/domiance in certain areas rather than allowing those who are unsaved to only hear the perspectives of unbelievers. There's nothing in the scriptures commanding believers to utilize media outlets, or to take holidays made by the state/use them for their own reflection upon the Messiah--but believers, if being given increased rights/power and having the opportunity, are commanded by the Lord to make the most of anything they can in order to present the Gospel message to others (I Corinthians 9, 1 Corinthians 16:8-10, 2 Corinthians 2:11-13, Ephesians 5:15-17, Colossians 4:2-6, etc).

As another believer said best on the issue of what the Church Fathers did:

As for Christmas superseding a pagan festival, well, good! Grace builds upon nature. Why make a change in people's traditions, more in the nature of a cypher (the undifferentiated, holiday 'slot') than a significant change, more radical than necessary? The antipathetic nature of the festivals is what was significant, not the reuse of an established 'slot'.

Furthermore, given that in olden times, post Constantine, at least, Christianity tended to be imposed by rulers, it seems to have been an eminently prudent measure. The 'slot' was henceforth occupied by the majority's religion, and its continued use as a pagan holiday would have been rendered more problematic to the latter's vestigial adherents.


​

For anyone saying "But Christ wasn't born on the day we celebrate during the Holiday!!!!!", having the actual date (possibly in October or even during the Summer in July, IMHO) doesn't mean that it's wrong to celebrate an event apart from that. Technically, celebration for the birth of Christ should occur ALL THROUGHOUT the year anyhow, even though he wasn't born in every month--so the fact that one was chosen to do so should not trip people out. Either one values it/ wishes to celebrate it whenever they can, with freedom given to others to focus on it during a set-apart time---or one doesn't value it and wishes not to celebrate it.

With the date issue, there is no doubt that Constantine started the church celebrating certain events during pagan holidays...for it was apart of his desire to establish more order in the church/have things unified when Christianity became legalized/the state religion and he wanted things to have already existing associations with holidays that were celebrated by the rest of the Romans. For him, having a holiday celebrated where dedication to a pagan god used to occur would be difficult to get rid of if a new holiday was instituted and people still were familar with the former days when events would be celebrated...so in institutionalizng Christianity, he called for the churches to come together in councils and choose the days when events were to go down.

Saturn was honored with a winter solace festival." Saturnus (Sun/Moon) was worshiped December 17-24..but the early church chose December 25th to counter the false god worship with true god worship. Because no one really knows the exact date of Christ's birth, a date was strategically selected after the winter solace to counter the pagan worship of Saturn. Additionally, choosing to celebrate the birth of the Messiah would be something that was an issue since celebrating the birth of Christ predates Constantines rule. There is evidence that Christ's birth was celebrated in 200 ad in the 8th year of Augustus, to my knowledge.

And for people saying it's idolatry to celebrate CHrist on a day (or season) where others celebrate worship to pagan God, I'd say that it's an issue that they need to get over. Not only do they NOT know the exact day He was born--but trying to discuss "pagan" roots of days is inconsistent since anyone studying the days/weeks of the year understands that EVERDAY we live has a pagan association with it.

As one source said:

The days of the week were named after Norse gods and giant objects in the sky.

These names come to us originally from the Greeks and Romans, who named the days of the week after their gods.

The Anglo-Saxons, who invaded Britain hundreds of years ago, adopted this idea but substituted their own gods. The English language has inherited and changed those names a bit, but the ones we use today resemble those names.

Here's how:

• Sunday: Sun's Day. The Sun gave people light and warmth every day. They decided to name the first (or last) day of the week after the Sun.
• Monday: Moon's Day. The Moon was thought to be very important in the lives of people and their crops.
• Tuesday: Tiw's Day. Tiw, or Tyr, was a Norse god known for his sense of justice.
• Wednesday: Woden's Day. Woden, or Odin, was a Norse god who was one of the most powerful of them all.
• Thursday: Thor's Day. Thor was a Norse god who wielded a giant hammer.
• Friday: Frigg's Day. Frigg was a Norse god equal in power to Odin.
• Saturday: Seater's Day or Saturn's Day. Saturn was a Roman god.

The same dynamics have occurred even for the months themselves. As said best in another resource:

The original Roman year had 10 named months Martius "March", Aprilis "April", Maius "May", Junius "June", Quintilis "July", Sextilis "August", September "September", October "October", November "November", December "December".

• January: Janus is the Roman god of gates and doorways, depicted with two faces looking in opposite directions. His festival month in January.
• February: Februa is the Roman festival of purification, held on February fifteenth. It is possibly of Sabine origin.
• March: Martius was the time for the resumption of war. Mars is the Roman god of war. He is identified with the Greek god Ares.
• April: Aprilis is the month of Aphrodite the Greek goddess of love and beauty. She is identified with the Roman goddess Venus.
• May: Maia (meaning "the great one") is the Italic goddess of spring, the daughter of Faunus, and wife of Vulcan.
• June: Junius or Juno is the principle goddess of the Roman Pantheon. She is the goddess of marriage and the well-being of women. She is the wife and sister of Jupiter. She is ientified with the Greek goddess Hera.
• July: After the first Roman Emperor Julius Caesr (100-44 B.C.), who was regarded as a God.
• August: After the second great Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar (63 B.C.-14 A.D.), who like all Emperors up until Constantine (274-337 A.D., the first Christian Emperor) was also regarded as a God.

​

Even the word we use to name our very planet has some very strong connections with paganism. For the word "Earth" comes from the Old English word 'eorthe', which refers to the region that came between the world of the gods and the underworld. It is just the word English-speaking people use. When the planets were named for the Roman gods, Earth was known as 'Terra.' This was the name of the Mother goddess, equivalent of the Greek Gaia or 'Ge.' Indeed in many languages the word for 'Earth' is 'Terra' or a variant of this Latin word. That's where why we describe aliens as 'extraterrestrials.'"

To be more specific, the days of the week are all associated with thingse deemed "pagan" ..as Saturday (when Jews have Sabbath ), for example, is named after the god of Saturn in the Roman empire..and the same thing with other days as well.

ALL of that is said in light of the issue of how much there does seem to be focus upon worshipping the Lord and celebrating the birth of Christ during one day because people want no assocation with that which is "pagan" ...for it makes, IMHO, no logical sense to focus upon that...and then simultaneously claim we should worship/celebrate the Messiah in His work throughout the year since nearly every day/month will have a pagan association

There are differing views on the subject of Christmas/the action of choosing the day of the 25th to celebrate the birth of the Messiah, of course...and for some excellent reviews on the issue, one can go online/investigate under the following titles:

• Zenobia: Empress of the East : Whose Christmas Is It Anyway?

• December 25 means the Triumph of Christianity over Paganism << Euangelion "

Additionally, there was actually an excellent review on the issue of trying to decide when the actual date of Christ's birth was...and why the church choo celebrate it on December 25th. For more, one can go online/look up the article entitled "How December 25 Became Christmas - Biblical Archeology Review " (). IMHO, I think it was a well-balanced article that contains surprises for people of varying opinions about Christmas and December 25th. IMHO, I think it's the most definitive article I have yet seen on the historical basis for December 25 as the day of Jesus&#8217; birth. The article can definitely serve to quell a great deal of the paganoid rhetoric we see out there this time of year..and yet, at the same time, it does help in showing how Christmas on December 25 was not God&#8217;s original intention, and it was established as an observance long after the Apostles were gone. Came across it after studying the Christmas series that Messianic Derek Lemnan did if going online/looking up something under the name of "Christmas | Messianic Musings".


No one knows for sure when Jesus was born..for there are calculations that place His Birth in the Winter or the Spring or the Fall. Ultimately, no one really knows for sure. If one chooses to celebrate it in the Fall, Spring, or the Winter makes no difference. For it's not the when that we're celebrating; it's the Who and the Why that we're celebrating..and the majority of the Body of Christ chooses to celebrate the Birth of Christ in December because that is the time when the whole world is paying attention. The Gospel is freely preached through song at this time of year like no other time in many respects...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I acknowledge the fact that it is based off of a pagan holiday, due to the expansion of the Christian faith.

I still celebrate it, due to the enigma that is Jesus Christ's actual birth day.

IMHO, regardless of whether others do pagan activity during the holiday, does that in any way mean that believers cannot do godly activity during it just as it is throughout the year when people do evil on the same days of the week believers utilize to do good? Yes, the origins of CHristmas seem to have aspects to them that are not rooted soley within Biblical culture when seeing its origins..and there've been many good reviews on that reality.

Nonetheless, the same principle of celebrating the birth of Christ on a day used by pagans is found within the scriptures repeatedly already. However, as Messianic Rabbi Derek Lemnan said best when speaking on intermarried families and their debates on whether Jewish family members would be allowed to celebrate Christmas:

First, it should be noted that adapting pagan customs for the worship of the true God is not only allowable, it is something God himself does. Research and you will find that Sukkot (Tabernacles) is quite similar to the Babylonian and other Mesopotamian rites at the end of harvest. You will find that new moons marked the calendar in virtually all ancient cultures prior to the institution of the Biblical calendar. You will find that Late Bronze temples amongst the pagans were virtually identical in layout to the pattern God showed Moses on Sinai for the Tabernacle and what later became the Temple in Jerusalem. You will find that cherubs, mixed creatures of animal and human features, marked the deities of Egypt and Mesopotamia and yet were included on the Ark and on the curtains of the Temple. I could go on and on, but Tandi and the many critics of Christmas as deceptive-pagan worship need to reckon with the fact that worship customs are shared in common between pagans and Jews and Christians and always have been.

Second, the idea that customs of Christmas (a cut tree, holly, a fire, songs, etc.) are equatable with the customs of the Canaanites which the Torah forbids Israel to imitate has a major problem. The problem is that in context after context, the Torah and prophets give examples of these customs. They involve idolatrous worship, sexual immorality, and even child sacrifice. These are hardly equatable with a family decorating and feasting for a holiday.

More importantly, Christmas represents for many of the non-Jewish spouses of intermarriage a treasured piece of childhood, a family heritage, and a cultural expression that brings fond memories. When a person comes to God he does not strip away heritage or culture, but only wrong-doing and error.

Christmas is for many a connection to extended family, a shared experience that has meant bonding and forgiving and coming together for something good and joyful....

There are positive reasons why a non-Jewish spouse of intermarriage might want to celebrate Christmas.

Yet there are strong reasons to take the opposite approach as well. ....Remembering the birth of Messiah on December 25 is based on a falsehood. The church long ago chose a date which coincided with a Roman feast involving pagan customs. This was not an attempt by the church to deceive anyone. It was a matter of expedience. Everyone was already freed from regular work during Saturnalia and it was a good time for a feast (Christmas feasts were more than one day at that time). Yeshua was decidedly not born on December 25 which means there is always something artificial about Christmas. We have no idea when Yeshua was born (the so-called proof that he was born during Sukkot is baseless and equally false).
​

Additionally, as another believer noted best when discussing the issue of aspects of CHristmas people say are "pagan" and yet ignore where the same was present in Israel:

If you&#8217;ve ever taken a study trip to Israel, one of the first sites you most likely saw was Gezer, only a few miles from the airport in Tel Aviv.

There you will find a group of ancient standing stones (matzebot in Hebrew) that date from 1500 BC, when the Canaanites were in the land of Israel. They were part of the ancient practice of erecting stone pillars at pagan worship sites, and were often involved in worship of heavenly bodies.

The practice dates from at least 5000 BC. Many sacred stone sites from 3000 BC and older can still be found in the Negev and Sinai desert, as well as around Europe and elsewhere. Stonehenge, from around 2500 BC, is another example.
In theory, the pillar monument at Gezer should not be standing right now. God gave the Israelites explicit instructions to destroy all of the pagan standing stones in Israel:

&#8220;Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones (matzebot) and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.&#8221; (Deuteronomy 12:3)
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But Gezer was a very strategic city and only rarely were Israelite kings in control of it (Judges 1:29, 1 Kings 9:16). So during very little of Israel&#8217;s ancient history could they have knocked down the stones of Gezer.

Interestingly, Jacob used this practice to worship God after he had the vision of the heavenly staircase. There he erected a stone, anointed it, dedicated it to God and called it Bethel (Genesis 28:18-28). Even more surprisingly, after the Israelites crossed the Jordan, God himself commanded them to set up twelve stones to be a memorial to the miracle God did there. The text says,

&#8220;When your children ask their fathers in time to come, saying, `What are these stones?&#8217; then you shall inform your children, saying, `Israel crossed this Jordan on dry ground.&#8217; &#8220;For the LORD your God dried up the waters of the Jordan before you until you had crossed, just as the LORD your God had done to the Red Sea, which He dried up before us until we had crossed; that all the peoples of the earth may know that the hand of the LORD is mighty, so that you may fear the LORD your God forever.&#8221; (Joshua 4:21-24)
​

Erecting standing stones, masebot, has been a pagan practice for millennia. Stonehenge is one example, the monoliths at Gezer are another. In Deuteronomy God instructs the Israelites to tear down those in the land (12:3) and not to put them up themselves because God *hates* them (16:2). But in Joshua, God specifically instructs the tribes to erect 12 standing stones (masebot) after they enter the land, in order to commemorate God&#8217;s action there. (Joshua 4:21-24) And Jacob erects stones at various places where he has an encounter with God, and this is considered an act of faithful worship (Gen 28:18 for example).

But on the other hand, when a practice that God himself instituted becomes idolatrous, he abolishes it. In the desert, God told the Israelites to construct the bronze snake so that those who looked upon it would be healed (Numbers 21:8). But later in history, the bronze snake was used as an idol, so it had to be destroyed. (2 Kings 18:4).

In both cases, a ritual&#8217;s origins were not a part of the decision as to whether it should be encouraged or stopped. What was important was how it was being used at the time, either to honor God or to worship idols. These biblical examples can give us wisdom about the holidays of Christmas and Easter. These holidays began as Christians decided to worship the true God on days when pagan gods used to be worshiped. Some of the traditions (like the Christmas tree and the Easter egg) once had pagan meanings that are now lost as they have become Christian celebrations. Should we avoid these observances?

There are some people who have rejected these celebrations entirely because of their origins. But it seems that the critical thing is not what their origins are, but whether we are worshiping the one true God. .




​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes, the food is always a temptation.

A BIG temptation.....

 

[Qnts2]

If it is idolatrous for Jews, why isn't it idolatrous for gentiles?

This is a difference between the beliefs of Judaism and Messianic Judaism. Judaism believes that the Messiah will be a man. Judaism believes that calling any man, God, and worshipping a man, is idolatry.

Messianic Judaism believes the Yeshua is God in the flesh. So when a Chassidic Rabbi criticizes Jewish people for putting up a Christmas tree which is in honor of what they view as a man who is believed to be God, that to Judaism, the religion of the Jewish people, is idolatry. Those who are not Jewish are not held to the Jewish religion (unless they live in the land of Israel in which case they are subject to a certain subset of the laws).

There are exceptions of course. Some Rabbi's, primarily those who adhere to teaching the Noachide laws as taught by Rebbe Schneerson, would discourage Gentiles from believing on Jesus, as Rebbe Schneerson viewed such a belief as idolatry for both Jews and Gentiles. But the main objection to Jewish people having a Christmas tree is tied to the Christian belief that Jesus is God.

The mention of the Jewish soul/spark does go into a more mystical form of Judaism.

 

[ChavaK]

I wouldn't tempt you to break the rules

I know you wouldn't

basically it was in general, but more addressed to Qnts2.

Okay, wasn't sure since there was no quote of the post you were responding to.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I obviously don't celebrate it, but I don't see an issue with people that do.
What is your view?

Our family always enjoyed celebrating Christmas every year
Last I heard, Santa had died. ;Not sure of that, but it has been some time since I have seen him around ]

 

[xDenax]

Those who are not Jewish are not held to the Jewish religion (unless they live in the land of Israel in which case they are subject to a certain subset of the laws).

Agreed. I am certainly not going to concern myself over Christians having Christmas trees or celebrating Christmas. There are much more important things to worry about. Have a tree. Sing carols. Put lights all over your house. Buy gifts for your family. Visit a live nativity. I care about how you treat people. That other stuff makes no difference to me.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Assuming this is in response to my post, of course this isn't a subject that can be discussed on this forum without breaking every rule there is

I will say two things: I view gentiles differently inside the land vs. outside of it. And G-d has different paths for different people, although all will end up at the same point in the end

I assume you mean in a grave

Some have viewed the "beggar" in Luke 16 as representing "Gentiles" and wonder how others view it here [or if there is a topic on this board discussing it]
Shalom and God bless

Luke 16:22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.
The rich-man also died and was buried.

Genesis 15:13 Then He said to Abram: "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land [that is] not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years.
"Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age.

 

[yedida]

Our family always enjoyed celebrating Christmas every year
Last I heard, Santa had died. ;Not sure of that, but it has been some time since I have seen him around ]

You have stated several times that you are Jewish. In your statement above you mention "our family" is that you, your wife and kids, or are you referring to childhood family? In other words, are you rabbinically "Jewish' and were you raised Jewish, or were you born to Jewish Christians and raised Christian and you're Jewish by lineage? Just curious...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You have stated several times that you are Jewish. In your statement above you mention "our family" is that you, your wife and kids, or are you referring to childhood family? In other words, are you rabbinically "Jewish' and were you raised Jewish, or were you born to Jewish Christians and raised Christian and you're Jewish by lineage? Just curious...

WHAT?!?!?
Where have I ever stated that?!

 

[ChavaK]

You have stated several times that you are Jewish. In your statement above you mention "our family" is that you, your wife and kids, or are you referring to childhood family? In other words, are you rabbinically "Jewish' and were you raised Jewish, or were you born to Jewish Christians and raised Christian and you're Jewish by lineage? Just curious...

Must be thinking of someone else.....LLOJ has never said he's Jewish.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Last I heard, Santa had died. ;Not sure of that, but it has been some time since I have seen him around ]

St.Nicolas, the man whom Santa was based upon, died a devout believer in the Lord....and is with the Lord due to the love he showed for him via caring for the poor/destitute....although as it concerns the myth of Santa Claus, that man has been out of commission for a long time and someone else trying to imitate him