What is your view of Christmas...

[yedida]

Dont' for get Kwanza too, around the same time.

I know, but so far, no one else had indicated a desire to observe anything other than christmas and/or chanukkah! I guess, though, that they'd be allowed. Christmas (and by extention New Year) is the only holiday that gets acknowledged so far in advance so there isn't a problem with any of the other holidays. So Kwansa wouldn't bother me. And most of the time, Chanukkah falls within the "week before" time period anyway. It's only just once in a while that it falls completely a full 7-8 days before, so it's usually not a big deal. I think it's the same way with Kwansa, usually within the week before range, so they all usually get acknowledged by the default term "holidays."

 

[Gxg (G²)]

what about christmas and easter cards i make greeting cards for both holidays

maggie

Depends on the family. My does, although it's usually an end of the year thing along with others. The same happens on Thanksgiving sometimes....

 

[Qnts2]

The Christmas tree is not that old at all. It comes from Germany. At most it can be dated back 4 centurions. It was also known as the 'Yule tree', and it associated with the god Odin. Heathen sacrifices, many bloody ones, feasting and a pagan temple are all connected to this.

Some people see a warning to Israel against decorated trees found in Jeremiah

3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.

The prohibition against trees is actually shaping it and adorning it. The shape or carving goes back to the 10 commandments.

Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

So it is the cutting of the tree and carving/shaping it. This is a carved image which is forbidden. Then taking this carved image and adorning it. All a very specific and detailed description of creating a graven image/idol and decorating it to honor it.

A Christmas tree is not a carved/graven image. It is only a tree. And it does not represent any god like Odin.

Reading a bit of history, the tree started with treats on it, setup for workers or their children to take the treats (apples and candy) before the holiday. This appears to be dated in the 14th-16th centuries. After the Reformation, wealthy Protestants decorated trees in their homes as a replacement for the Catholic nativity scene.

I have said before, that I have an issue with the manger scene as I view that as a graven or molten image and a violation of the commandment while the Christmas tree is not graven or molten and therefore not a violation of the commandment which Jeremiah was referring to.

 

[Avodat]

To test whether a Christmas tree is a god or not - remove it from the Church and see what happens! You'll find it is sacred to Christmas use, very quickly!

 

[Qnts2]

To test whether a Christmas tree is a god or not - remove it from the Church and see what happens! You'll find it is sacred to Christmas use, very quickly!

I understand your point, somewhat.

At what point does an attachment become an idol?

I am flying somewhat blind on this as I do not celebrate Christmas. I always have turkey at Thanksgiving. I really really like making this huge turkey and stuffing. I have once or twice missed the day of Thanksgiving in the past, and I still made the turkey and stuffing a few days later. Didn't want to miss out. I like Thanksgiving. I would be disappointed if I was not allowed to have a Thanksgiving turkey at all that year.

I think the lack of a Christmas tree in a church where the members are mostly born again would be a big disappointment to the people, and a whole mess load of people all at once focussed on that one Christmas tree so would be noisy, but it is only disappointment.

I also would not be surprised in a not so born again membership would view the lack of a Christmas tree as steeling away the joy of the season. These are seeking the joy which is supposed to be a part of Christmas and that joy includes the 'lighting of the Christmas tree', if the movies are right about peoples view of Christmas trees.

 

[yedida]

I understand your point, somewhat.

At what point does an attachment become an idol?

I am flying somewhat blind on this as I do not celebrate Christmas. I always have turkey at Thanksgiving. I really really like making this huge turkey and stuffing. I have once or twice missed the day of Thanksgiving in the past, and I still made the turkey and stuffing a few days later. Didn't want to miss out. I like Thanksgiving. I would be disappointed if I was not allowed to have a Thanksgiving turkey at all that year.

I think the lack of a Christmas tree in a church where the members are mostly born again would be a big disappointment to the people, and a whole mess load of people all at once focussed on that one Christmas tree so would be noisy, but it is only disappointment.

I also would not be surprised in a not so born again membership would view the lack of a Christmas tree as steeling away the joy of the season. These are seeking the joy which is supposed to be a part of Christmas and that joy includes the 'lighting of the Christmas tree', if the movies are right about peoples view of Christmas trees.

You've got that right! They just sit and stare at the lights, fixated on them. And I think Avodat's right too, about the idolatry of the tree during the season. Even for "born agains" christmas without a tree is unthinkable. It's not an either/or situation - a tree is a must! No tree, no holiday. I know, I've been there and I'm what you'd call "born again." It may only be for a short season, but the "need" for the tree is a very strong one, one that I would indeed label as "idolatry."

 

[Avodat]

You've got that right! They just sit and stare at the lights, fixated on them. And I think Avodat's right too, about the idolatry of the tree during the season. Even for "born agains" christmas without a tree is unthinkable. It's not an either/or situation - a tree is a must! No tree, no holiday. I know, I've been there and I'm what you'd call "born again." It may only be for a short season, but the "need" for the tree is a very strong one, one that I would indeed label as "idolatry."

And you can substitute the word 'tree' with the any of the following: pulpit, pews, chairs, the crucifix, statues, stations of the Cross, etc. etc. etc., and my comment would still be valid in a lot of congregations!

 

[anisavta]

I do so HATE when I have almost a full comment finished, I press the space key and the whole sheebang disappears. Gotta start over. (word that expresses this frustration placed here!)
Let me play devil's advocate here. For many Christians with trees, it has to do with tradition. Ornaments are passed down like heirlooms. They are remembrance trees.
I no longer celebrate Christmas, but I still have the ornaments packed away in a box. I can look at an ornament and evoke the feeling and memory of when I received it and what it represented. One passed down several generations. Another made by my daughter in kindergarten. My son use to hang his little rubber dinosaurs with rubber-bands or his plastic action figures on the tree.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think the lack of a Christmas tree in a church where the members are mostly born again would be a big disappointment to the people, and a whole mess load of people all at once focussed on that one Christmas tree so would be noisy, but it is only disappointment.

I also would not be surprised in a not so born again membership would view the lack of a Christmas tree as steeling away the joy of the season. These are seeking the joy which is supposed to be a part of Christmas and that joy includes the 'lighting of the Christmas tree', if the movies are right about peoples view of Christmas trees.

You'd be surprised at the IMMENSE amount of churches that don't care to use trees in the building during Christmas, as it's a stereotype saying believers celebrating Christmas MUST have trees. The church I grew up in (interdenominational, charismatic, multicultural, etc) wasn't obsessed with having trees in the building and didn't care to use them......as the scriptures didn't command it anyhow. Many churches have long preached against the use of Christmas trees (as well as Christmas) and don't celebrate it at all since they feel Christmas is a man-made holy day (holiday) and Christmas trees are either the symbol of that...or (as some have said) a pagan image.

The focus for many is simply being thankful for the birth of Christ...and for others, having a tree is a matter of tradition. Other places don't care for it, as it's no more a formula to have trees for CHristmas than it'd be accurate to say one can't celebrate Thanksgiving without turkey.

The same thing goes with gifts, as many churches don't do the gig with giving of gifts. What they will do is celebrate by giving to others who do not have, like being at a soup kitchen.

Sadly, what often happens is that the people who actually celebrate Christmas get generalized as HAVING to support certain things because many do so...and in the multiple cases where others don't fit an image, they get ignored. Trying to generalize all churches as if they're the same is like one trying to say "What does an ocean wave look like"...for there are many variations/forms of it and it's a case by case basis. The same goes for other things that people often associate as things folks assume all churches FIGHT to have (i.e. pulpit, pews, crucifix, etc) since the specturm of CHristendom is so vast. Some people get shocked on the holidays when going to Jewish homes and seeing the symbol of a Cross on the door or seeing a Nativity Set of Yeshua in a manger---although again, everyone's different.

 

[Avodat]

My post was about Churches that already have these things, and their reaction if you took them away.

I am aware that many congregations do not have the tree or any of the alternatives I listed, thankfully!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.

The prohibition against trees is actually shaping it and adorning it. The shape or carving goes back to the 10 commandments.

Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

So it is the cutting of the tree and carving/shaping it. This is a carved image which is forbidden. Then taking this carved image and adorning it. All a very specific and detailed description of creating a graven image/idol and decorating it to honor it.

A Christmas tree is not a carved/graven image. It is only a tree. And it does not represent any god like Odin.

Reading a bit of history, the tree started with treats on it, setup for workers or their children to take the treats (apples and candy) before the holiday. This appears to be dated in the 14th-16th centuries. After the Reformation, wealthy Protestants decorated trees in their homes as a replacement for the Catholic nativity scene.

I have said before, that I have an issue with the manger scene as I view that as a graven or molten image and a violation of the commandment while the Christmas tree is not graven or molten and therefore not a violation of the commandment which Jeremiah was referring to.

The same thing has been noted in regards to many believers having issue with churches having plants/flowers in their buildings, as they see it as being similar to the pagan cultures who brought plant life as offerings before their gods. India does the same thing when using flowers as a part of temple worship....but there's a context--and the same thing goes with trees.

 

[yedida]

My post was about Churches that already have these things, and their reaction if you took them away.

I am aware that many congregations do not have the tree or any of the alternatives I listed, thankfully!

Yes, we are well aware of what some churches do and what some churches don't do. Aren't we? I always thought forums were supposed to be ways to discuss what we each personally think or feel about things. You know, sharing a little bit about our own selves; we're aware of the differences in the world!

(Avodat check rep)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

My post was about Churches that already have these things, and their reaction if you took them away.

I am aware that many congregations do not have the tree or any of the alternatives I listed, thankfully!

Where was it said your post wasn't about churches already having those things? To my knowledge, nothing was said to the counter on that. A lot do react ..and numerous church planters/teachers in the church have been critiquing that for years...some of the most notable being ones such as Frank Viola in his books Reimagining Church Pursuing the Dream of Organic Christianity and Pagan Christianity ..or Kevin DeYoung of Why We Love the Church: In Praise of Institutions and Organized ... and Alan Knox.

Many of the ones speaking on the reaction of other churches in things removed tend to come from traditions connected with groups known as the Radical Reformers (Anabaptists, Mennonite, House Church, etc) and it was always a trip seeing friends/family having to wage war with others in certain churches where you were deemed rebellious for simply thinking you didn't need to have church in a steeple house (or any kind of building, even synagouge) in order to truly be what the Body of Messiah was meant to be.

What I was noting to Q was speaking both of churches that never used trees/alternatives as well as churches that had them....but discarded them for differing reasons. Plenty churches that had those things and did not react when things were taken away---be it for a time or permanately. For it's not just churches who've never had trees/alternatives listed who do not react. Many churches have long made transitions throughout history and are not bent out of shape if things were taken out of them since the Gospel isn't depenent on them. For some, it may be uncomfortable at times since it takes getting used to when doing it a certain way...but life moves on. The churches that tend to demand certain things remain in place are the ones that tend to be in the extreme.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Generally speaking, I don't send Easter or Christmas cards.

Our family tends to want to greet people in person rather than via card alone. Cards aren't something we'd generally want to spend money on...

 

[Lulav]

3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.

The prohibition against trees is actually shaping it and adorning it. The shape or carving goes back to the 10 commandments.

Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

So it is the cutting of the tree and carving/shaping it. This is a carved image which is forbidden. Then taking this carved image and adorning it. All a very specific and detailed description of creating a graven image/idol and decorating it to honor it.

A Christmas tree is not a carved/graven image. It is only a tree. And it does not represent any god like Odin.

Reading a bit of history, the tree started with treats on it, setup for workers or their children to take the treats (apples and candy) before the holiday. This appears to be dated in the 14th-16th centuries. After the Reformation, wealthy Protestants decorated trees in their homes as a replacement for the Catholic nativity scene.

I have said before, that I have an issue with the manger scene as I view that as a graven or molten image and a violation of the commandment while the Christmas tree is not graven or molten and therefore not a violation of the commandment which Jeremiah was referring to.

Do you need to argue everything with me?

I said

Some people see a warning to Israel against decorated trees found in Jeremiah

Idolatry comes in many forms. And it is seen as idolatry by some Jews, less and less, sadly because of Western movies and TV shows.

According to Rabbi Menahem Brod, spokesman for Chabad-Lubavitch in Israel, hassidic thought explains that there is a "spark" of holiness in every Jewish soul that fights to prevent total detachment from Judaism. "Jews who are so distant from Judaism that they do not understand the idolatrous aspect of the Christmas tree do not feel threatened by it. "Others, like Brizon, have a deeper understanding of both Judaism and the Christmas tree. They realize that they have reached a point of no return. That a Christmas tree is not just international folklore. It is idolatry. So their soul awakens."

 

[Qnts2]

Do you need to argue everything with me?

I said



Idolatry comes in many forms. And it is seen as idolatry by some Jews, less and less, sadly because of Western movies and TV shows.

According to Rabbi Menahem Brod, spokesman for Chabad-Lubavitch in Israel, hassidic thought explains that there is a "spark" of holiness in every Jewish soul that fights to prevent total detachment from Judaism. "Jews who are so distant from Judaism that they do not understand the idolatrous aspect of the Christmas tree do not feel threatened by it. "Others, like Brizon, have a deeper understanding of both Judaism and the Christmas tree. They realize that they have reached a point of no return. That a Christmas tree is not just international folklore. It is idolatry. So their soul awakens."

I don't argue everything with you. I do put forth alternate views. And not just to you.

Without looking it up, I seriously doubt that Rabbi Brod was talking about Christians having a Christmas tree. Since Chabad does not believe Jesus to be Messiah, and the belief that Yeshua is God, to Chabad, would be idolatry for a Jewish person. So, if a Jewish family (non-Messianic) liked the idea of a Christmas tree because it is pretty and put one in their house, since the tree is about Jesus, it would be considered idolatry to Lubavitch/Orthodox Judaism. The same argument would not apply to those who do believe Jesus is Lord, Messiah, Savior and God. Saying Jesus is God is not idolatry to Christianity or Messianic Judaism but it is the truth.

Rabbi Brod probably has absolutely no objection to Christians having a Christmas tree, but would probably absolutely object to a Jewish person believing on Yeshua.

 

[Lulav]

If it is idolatrous for Jews, why isn't it idolatrous for gentiles?

 

[GodActsOnMe]

Do you feel it is wrong? Just curious no bashing intended.

I acknowledge the fact that it is based off of a pagan holiday, due to the expansion of the Christian faith.

I still celebrate it, due to the enigma that is Jesus Christ's actual birth day.

 

[Lulav]

Wouldn't a better time to celebrate this be at his baptism?

This might have been 40 days before his birthday. According to the book called Luke, anyway.

 

[anisavta]

I acknowledge the fact that it is based off of a pagan holiday, due to the expansion of the Christian faith.

I still celebrate it, due to the enigma that is Jesus Christ's actual birth day.

It is an enigma to me that anyone would still embrace something even though they know it is pagan. And that is why the Catholic church designated Dec. 25th - winter solstice as the day to celebrate. They knew that people didn't care about mixing pagan and holy. Go figure.
Definition of enigma:
1
: an obscure speech or writing
2
: something hard to understand or explain

3
: an inscrutable or mysterious person