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SaraJarvis

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Sarajarvis, we really do appreciate all that you are doing here.

But you do not have to go through the trouble.

There have been thousands of volumes tendered regarding prophecy. And the view that you espouse is nothing new.

Every prophecy that has been fulfilled or partially fulfilled was done so after the prophecy was written. Oftentimes many years after which precludes the writer from being able to know exactly what would take place unless he was divinely inspired.

Explain it away or ignore, as many seek to do with God Himself. It does not change the fact that He is.

I think a word from C.S. Lewis, who was an atheist but became a son of God after yielding his life to Christ, is appropriate here:

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." - C.S. Lewis
Do you really need to take the condescending attitude? There's a fine line between being kind and being patronising.

Spouting C.S. Lewis (I think we ALL know who HE was, no need to explain) doesn't make your statement any more true. There is no proof that any of the aforementioned prophecies have come true - yet lots of proof that they haven't. It's just willful ignorance to still say they're true. The bible may say it, but when it's obvious that they haven't come true (I'm assuming that you've researched further than theologians, and read things from the other side of the fence), how can you still convince yourself that they happened?
 
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Elioenai26

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Do you really need to take the condescending attitude? There's a fine line between being kind and being patronising.

Spouting C.S. Lewis (I think we ALL know who HE was, no need to explain) doesn't make your statement any more true. There is no proof that any of the aforementioned prophecies have come true - yet lots of proof that they haven't. It's just willful ignorance to still say they're true. The bible may say it, but when it's obvious that they haven't come true (I'm assuming that you've researched further than theologians, and read things from the other side of the fence), how can you still convince yourself that they happened?

I am being kind. If you take it as condescending, then that is your perception and I am sorry you feel that way.

Would you rather me treat you unkindly? If this is what you prefer, I must say that I shall not be able to do so. I would want someone to be kind and compassionate towards my sister if she were an atheist. I would not want her to be ridiculed or berated.

I shall treat you as I would want someone to treat my sister or mother or daughter.

Beyond this, state your case about the prophecies you have in mind.

I shall be waiting to respond.
 
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SaraJarvis

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I am being kind. If you take it as condescending, then that is your perception and I am sorry you feel that way.

Would you rather me treat you unkindly? If this is what you prefer, I must say that I shall not be able to do so. I would want someone to be kind and compassionate towards my sister if she were an atheist. I would not want her to be ridiculed or berated.

I shall treat you as I would want someone to treat my sister or mother or daughter.

Beyond this, state your case about the prophecies you have in mind.

I shall be waiting to respond.
I'm simply saying that there is a fine line between patronising and kind, and some of your 'appreciative' comments fall on the side of patronising.

Let us disregard that however, as it was only a side note to the rest of my post, which stated:

"There is no proof that any of the aforementioned prophecies have come true - yet lots of proof that they haven't. It's just willful ignorance to still say they're true. The bible may say it, but when it's obvious that they haven't come true (I'm assuming that you've researched further than theologians, and read things from the other side of the fence), how can you still convince yourself that they happened?"

So, let's go with Cyrus.

""
100prophecies.org claims that before 681 BCE the prophet Isaiah predicted Persia would defeat Babylon and furthermore that this prophecy was fulfilled in 539 BCE. They cite Isaiah 45:1 as predicting that "Babylon's gates would open for Cyrus": [9]
This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: (NIV)​
Thus bible inerrantists would have us believe that Isaiah prophesied specifically that Cyrus would be Babylon's conqueror and would enter through gates, and that he made this prediction over 140 years before the event. In reality, this section of Isaiah was written shortly before 537 BCE, so even if the prediction was not made after the event its occurrence at least was imminent and the name of Cyrus would have been known.
Isaiah's reference to gates, although the actual means Cyrus used to gain entry to the city of Babylon, was nonetheless meant figuratively. This is evidenced by noting the continued use of obviously figurative language in the next verse:
I will go before you and will level the mountains; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron. (NIV)​
It should be noted that Babylon is not actually mentioned anywhere in the chapter.
It should also be noted that "anointed" as used in Isaiah 45:1 is translated into Hebrew as "messiah" and into Greek as "Christ." Although never admitted by Christians, this passage seems to assert that Cyrus is the messiah."
 
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Elioenai26

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I'm simply saying that there is a fine line between patronising and kind, and some of your 'appreciative' comments fall on the side of patronising.

Let us disregard that however, as it was only a side note to the rest of my post, which stated:

"There is no proof that any of the aforementioned prophecies have come true - yet lots of proof that they haven't. It's just willful ignorance to still say they're true. The bible may say it, but when it's obvious that they haven't come true (I'm assuming that you've researched further than theologians, and read things from the other side of the fence), how can you still convince yourself that they happened?"

So, let's go with Cyrus.

""
100prophecies.org claims that before 681 BCE the prophet Isaiah predicted Persia would defeat Babylon and furthermore that this prophecy was fulfilled in 539 BCE. They cite Isaiah 45:1 as predicting that "Babylon's gates would open for Cyrus": [9]
This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: (NIV)​
Thus bible inerrantists would have us believe that Isaiah prophesied specifically that Cyrus would be Babylon's conqueror and would enter through gates, and that he made this prediction over 140 years before the event. In reality, this section of Isaiah was written shortly before 537 BCE, so even if the prediction was not made after the event its occurrence at least was imminent and the name of Cyrus would have been known.
Isaiah's reference to gates, although the actual means Cyrus used to gain entry to the city of Babylon, was nonetheless meant figuratively. This is evidenced by noting the continued use of obviously figurative language in the next verse:
I will go before you and will level the mountains; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron. (NIV)​
It should be noted that Babylon is not actually mentioned anywhere in the chapter.
It should also be noted that "anointed" as used in Isaiah 45:1 is translated into Hebrew as "messiah" and into Greek as "Christ." Although never admitted by Christians, this passage seems to assert that Cyrus is the messiah."

And your point? It seems to me that Isaiah was spot on with the prophecy.
 
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SaraJarvis

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And your point? It seems to me that Isaiah was spot on with the prophecy.
How can something be a prophecy if it was written while Cyrus was alive? That's like saying "Hitler will be a megalomaniac dictator", after listening to some of his speeches, when he's already gathering his Nazi army. It's just stating the obvious.
 
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Elioenai26

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How can something be a prophecy if it was written while Cyrus was alive? That's like saying "Hitler will be a megalomaniac dictator", after listening to some of his speeches, when he's already gathering his Nazi army. It's just stating the obvious.


The only reason one would maintain that the prophecy was written while Cyrus was alive is to discredit the prophecy's divine inspiration.

SaraJarvis, this again, is nothing new. For decades people have been suggesting different theories and hypotheses as to why Isaiah could not have actually made a prediction about Cyrus with the specificity that he did.

C.S. Lewis once famously observed that literary critics had come to many unfounded and incorrect conclusions about the works that he himself had written, and that therefore the judgments of literary critics concerning the New Testament simply could not be taken seriously. Lewis's critics lived in the same age as himself and it quite stunned the great man that their 'literary criticism' of his writings was so often really wide of the mark. Yet if such literary critics are discussing the Old Testament – rather than the New Testament – how much greater is the probability that such critics are going to be out of sympathy and out of any sort of 'time sync' understanding with the documents under discussion?​

Now, regarding the biblical book of Isaiah, for twenty five centuries no one dreamed of doubting that Isaiah the son of Amoz (who lived in the 8th Century B.C.) was the author of the entire book that goes under his name. The literary unity of Isaiah was not doubted until comparatively recent times. There is no evidence that the ancients who lived a few hundred years after Isaiah's time knew of any problems concerning Isaiah's writings. Even the translators of the Septuagint translation (approx. 200 BC) showed no indications of disbelieving that the 66 chapters of Isaiah are not Isaiah's work. Nor did the copyists of the text of Isaiah seem to know any other author except Isaiah the son of Amoz.​

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947 went even further in corroborating this book. Why? Because The Isaiah Scroll, found relatively intact, is 1000 years older than any previously known copy of Isaiah. In fact, the scrolls are the oldest group of Old Testament manuscripts ever found anywhere – and yet Isaiah is presented in exactly the same shape as in our current Old Testaments! There is no doubt that this discovery marked the beginning of the end for anti-supernaturalist criticism of Isaiah yet they did not give up their fight and even now the arguments of these people have great influence in certain circles.​

Many biblical critics try to maintain that Isaiah was actually written by at least two different people, sometimes three.​

So what have the older school of German Bible critics proposed about the Book of Isaiah?​



Basically, they have imposed three divisions on the book:
  1. First Isaiah. Chapters 1-39.
    Possibly actually written by somebody called 'Isaiah' although "higher critics" were far from convinced on this point.​

  2. Deutero-Isaiah. Chapters 40-55.
    Supposedly written by an unknown Jewish exile in Babylon during the sixth century B. C.​

  3. Trito-Isaiah. Chapters 56-66.
    Supposedly written by a post-exilic Palestinian because of 'considerations of structure and background ideas.'​

The reasons for imposing these divisions are somewhat related to the reasons that the now largely discredited Wellhausen Documentary Source Hypothesis imposed divisions upon the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible), that is, an assumption was made that the Bible could not possibly be 'divinely inspired' and that various redactors (editors) had, at various times, been involved who wanted to make a strong case for their claim that a supernatural, all-powerful God had called Israel to be His special people. These people (according to this theory) were quite prepared to steal religious myths and legends from anywhere in the ancient world as well as to lie about dating in order to make their case. So the rationalist Bible critics looked upon the Old Testament in a purely mechanical way, looking for clues within the text as to real authorship/time frame/motivation. They accepted the Hegelian 'history of religions' school of thought (again, largely discredited in this early 21st century) which believed that the oldest human religions were naïve and animistic and that monotheism (belief in one all-powerful God) was a late arrival and that the concept of a supernatural God was preposterous. Therefore it is entirely accurate to say that these people had largely already made their mind up on many of the main points and subjects of their “research” before they had even commenced it! Yet their obviously biased approach plainly - and quite outrageously! - breaks the rules of objective critical research, discussion and analysis.

'O.T. Allis is correct when he observes that the fragmentation of the Isaianic literature among multiple authors and along an extended time-line is historically the product of the ninteenth-century rationalism which refused to countenance predictive prophecy. Sadly, in addition to this, the prevailing spirit of scholarship was disposed to fragmentation rather than to holism, and in the case of Isaiah this meant that a literature bursting with internal evidence of its unity was rather made to burst into disparate pieces. The subsequent course of study has concentrated on the fragments until it is now widely assumed that the case for multiple authorship need no longer be argued but can be assumed. This is by no means so. The evidences of unity...require explanation and we must now explore the simplest explanation – that the whole literature is the product of Isaiah of Jerusalam.'



(The Prophecy of Isaiah, Alec Motyer, Inter-Varsity, 1993, page 25).​



So probably the main reason why the critics declare that the work of Isaiah is the work of at least two, if not three, writers is because they believed a prophet could not see beyond the horizon of his own time. It would be impossible for Isaiah (living around 700 BC) to speak of Cyrus who lived about 540 BC if divinely-inspired prophecy is impossible. Consequently, Isaiah 44:28 and Isaiah 45:1 are dated much later than 700 BC, and are said to have been written after the time of Cyrus by a writer who used the name “Isaiah” as a pen-name. So the critics proceed from the assumption that prediction of the distant future is impossible. They did not believe it was possible for Isaiah to speak of a distant Babylonian Captivity and of Cyrus as the deliverer from the Captivity long before Cyrus was even born!



Therefore the higher critics state that these sections of the book of Isaiah must have been written after the events actually occurred, and then they were made to appear as if they were predictive prophecies - in other words, if we should believe these people, at least certain sections of this book are a fraud! Of course, the same genre of Bible critics did exactly the same thing with Daniel; finding fulfilled prophecies within that book they insisted that the book was written several hundred years later in order to explain away fulfilled prophecy. See The Amazing Prophecy of Daniel and how it Defies Sceptics.



But the positing of a second and third Isaiah by Bible critics is despite the complete lack of textual or historical evidence of any kind which they are able to produce and it is based purely upon perceived differences in theme and subject matter, language, style and theological ideas. However, there are at least forty phrases common to all sections of Isaiah many of which are the idiosyncratic sort of phrases tending to be used by specific writers. The phrase 'The Holy One of Israel', for example, is found an almost equal number of times in (so-called) First and Deutero-Isaiah (12 times in chapters 1-39 and 13 times in chapters 40-66). There are also many similarities of theme, style, subject matter, and theology which these Bible critics apparently just ignored because it did not fit in with their already-decided fragmentary view of this book. Isaiah 40-66 shows little knowledge of Babylonian geography, but great familiarity with that of Palestine, and the author of (so-called) “Deutero-Isaiah” appears to assume that the cities of Judah are still standing, which would surely not have been the case if the author were writing during or just after the Babylonian captivity.​



A Christian View



For our part, Christians are bound to reject these entirely artificial and imposed divisions upon this great book.​



The New Bible Commentary sums up much of what is essential for us to appreciate,​



'In favour of the unity of Isaiah all evidence that can be adduced from outside sources is unanimous. External evidence is all in favour of the unity of the book. It is only within the last hundred and fifty years that any question at all has been raised. Until then the unhesistating belief of the Jewish community and the Christian Church had regarded the whole work as proceeding from the pen of Isaiah the son of Amoz. The LXX (the Septuagint) gives no hint of any kind of dual (or triple) authorship. In no better way has the old belief been recounted than by the son of Sirach who tells of the record of of the days of Hezekiah and says that Isaiah the prophet.....

Saw by an excellent spirit what would come to pass at the last; And he comforted them that mourned in Sion. He shewed the things that should be to the end of time. And the hidden things or ever they came.” (Ecclus. xlviii. 24-25, RV).





Side by side with this are to be set the many passages from the New Testament where reference is made to Isaiah and his words are quoted. 'Isaiah the prophet' is spoken of irrespective of the part of the book from which the words are taken. The actual references are divided almost equally between the sections of the book...this in itself is a confirmation of the view of the external evidence and that of the tradition of the Fathers.' (New Bible Commentary, Inter-Varsity, 1954, pages 558-559).​



But the most conclusive New Testament Isaiah citation is probably John 12:38-41. Verse 40 quotes Isaiah 6:9-10 (from the first section of the book of Isaiah). Verse 38 quotes Isaiah 53:1 (from the second section of the book of Isaiah). And then the inspired Apostle John comments in verse 41: 'These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.' Obviously, as far as John was concerned, it was the same Isaiah who personally beheld the glory of Christ in the temple-vision of Isaiah 6, as the Isaiah who also spoke of Christ in Isaiah 53:1. If it was not the same writer who composed both chapter 6 and chapter 53 (of the book of Isaiah), then the New Testament writer must have been in error! So those who follow the theory of 2 or 3 different Isaiahs must concede the existence of errors in the New Testament and, if so, this would be a very serious matter.​



To conclude, due to the influence of certain scholars of the German critical school of around a hundred and twenty years ago numerous biblically critical works have come to assume the existence of 'three Isaiahs' yet there remains quite powerful and persuasive evidence that the testimony of Scripture is actually accurate once the anti-supernaturalist bias of a whole school of atheistic Bible critics is swept away. As in the case of the 'documentary theory,' no evidence has ever been discovered from any source to corroborate a theory which is rejected by the growing number of evangelical Bible scholars and is now generally losing ground everywhere.

Robin A. Brace, 2006.​






Bibliography


Allis, O.T. The Unity of Isaiah. Tyndale Press: 1951.

Archer, Gleason. Isaiah, The Wycliffe Bible Commentary.
Calvin, John. Commentary on the Book of the Prophet Isaiah. Translated by William Pringle.
Edinburgh: Calvin Translation Society, 1850-1954.
Clements, Ronald Ernest. Isaiah and the Deliverance of Jerusalem:
A Study of the Interpretation of Prophecy in the Old Testament. Sheffield, England: J.S.O.T. Press, 1980.
Delitzsch, Franz. Isaiah. In vol. 7: Isaiah. Two volumes in one. Translated by James Martin.
Commentary on the Old Testament.10 vols. N.p.: Reprinted ed., Grand Rapids: Wm.B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1973.
Gordon, Cyrus H. Higher Critics and Forbidden Fruit, Christianity Today, November 23, 1959, in Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., A Christianity Today Reader Westwood, N.J.: Fleming H. Revell Co., 1968.
Lewis, C.S. Miracles.New York: Macmillan, 1960.
Motyer, Alec. The Prophecy of Isaiah. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity, 1993.
New Bible Commentary. London: Inter-Varsity, 1954.​



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createdtoworship

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If that´s accepted for a manual, the manual for making the sandwich could have been reduced to "look at these items with an open mind, everything else is pretty much self explanatory".
Besides, a manual typically doesn´t blame the audience for being unable to explain what it is meant to explain.

huh:confused:
 
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createdtoworship

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I already mentioned editing, etc. - Cyrus, for example.

"
100prophecies.org claims that before 681 BCE the prophet Isaiah predicted Persia would defeat Babylon and furthermore that this prophecy was fulfilled in 539 BCE. They cite Isaiah 45:1 as predicting that "Babylon's gates would open for Cyrus": [9]
This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: (NIV)​
Thus bible inerrantists would have us believe that Isaiah prophesied specifically that Cyrus would be Babylon's conqueror and would enter through gates, and that he made this prediction over 140 years before the event. In reality, this section of Isaiah was written shortly before 537 BCE, so even if the prediction was not made after the event its occurrence at least was imminent and the name of Cyrus would have been known.
Isaiah's reference to gates, although the actual means Cyrus used to gain entry to the city of Babylon, was nonetheless meant figuratively. This is evidenced by noting the continued use of obviously figurative language in the next verse:
I will go before you and will level the mountains; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron. (NIV)​
It should be noted that Babylon is not actually mentioned anywhere in the chapter.
It should also be noted that "anointed" as used in Isaiah 45:1 is translated into Hebrew as "messiah" and into Greek as "Christ." Although never admitted by Christians, this passage seems to assert that Cyrus is the messiah."

I have more sources, but I'm tired, and shall reply tomorrow.

I am aware of the problems with the prophecy of cyrus, however the ones I present are self sufficient enough to debate at our level.
 
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createdtoworship

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Regarding the Prophecy bit...

There is not a single prophecy in the Bible that has been proven to have been fulfilled. Not one.

I'm aware there's many claims of prophecies being fulfilled, even within the book itself. However, claims of fulfilled prophecy is not proof those prophecies happened.

And it's also quite correct that many "prophecies" are extremely vague. Those are not prophecies. Prophecies have to be fairly well defined, or else it's not much of a prediction... For example, if I predict at some point in the future a bunch of religious nuts are going to go to war with each other, and a well known religious site will be destroyed... It's not a prophecy if it actually occurs.

If I say 27 years from now years a man named Bill Jones will walk across Lake Michigan totally unaided, and he'll be the second coming of Jesus. That would be a prophecy.

how about this one:

Over Seven Centuries before the birth of Christ God told the Prophet Isaiah that the time span between the Commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and the coming of the Messiah would be exactly 476* years. (*seven=heptid). We know from any historical record that the order was in fact issued on March 14, 445B.C. When you add 173,880 days (476yrs) to the 14th of March, 445B.C. you come to April 6, A.D.32. Palm Sunday, The exact day Jesus entered triumphantly and openly into Jerusalem. [Predicted: Daniel 9:25/ Fulfilled: Luke 23:18]


 B.C. 445 A.D. 32 = 476 years (B.C. 1 to A.D. 1 = 1 yr.)
476 X 365 = 173,740 days
Add for leap years = 116 days
Mar. 14 to Apr. 6 = + 24 days (inclusive)
= 173,880
 
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createdtoworship

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THE CENSUS IN THE GOSPEL OF LUKE
For years New Testament critics denied the historical reliability of the account about the Roman census recorded in Luke 2. Critics saw this as an excuse invented for Mary and Joseph to be in Bethlehem at the birth of Jesus. They believed that second-century New Testament writers had to fabricate a fulfillment to the Old Testament prophecy that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. Luke wrote:
Now it came about in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth. This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. And all were proceeding to register for the census, everyone to his own city. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David; in order to register, along with Mary, who was engaged to him, and was with child. (Luke 2:1–5)
For many years there was no evidence of a census at that time. Jesus was born sometime before 4 b.c. A census was taken under Quirinius in a.d. 6 or 7, but there was no evidence for an earlier one that could correspond with the date of Jesus’ birth. Many critics assumed that this was another historical error of some second-century writer who called himself Luke and claimed to have “checked his facts.” However, what was eventually discovered revealed Luke’s integrity and reflected poorly on the critics. Biblical scholar Gleason L. Archer chronicles the problem and its solution:
Luke 2:1 tells of a decree from Caesar Augustus to have the whole “world” (oikoumene actually means all the world under the authority of Rome) enrolled in a census report for taxation purposes. Verse 2 specifies which census taking was involved at the time Joseph and Mary went down to Bethlehem, to fill out the census forms as descendants of the Bethlehemite family of King David. This was the first census undertaken by Quirinius (or “Cyrenius”) as governor (or at least as acting governor) of Syria. Josephus mentions no census in the reign of Herod the Great (who died in 4 b.c.) but he does mention one taken by “Cyrenius” (Antiquities 17.13.5) soon after Herod Archelaus was deposed in a.d. 6: “Cyrenius, one that had been consul, was sent by Caesar to take account of people’s effects in Syria, and to sell the house of Archelaus.” (Apparently the palace of the deposed king was to be sold and the proceeds turned over to the Roman government.)
If Luke dates the census in 8 or 7 b.c., and if Josephus dates it in a.d. 6 or 7, there appears to be a discrepancy of about fourteen years. Also, since Saturninus (according to Tertullian in Contra Marcion 4:19) was legate of Syria from 9 b.c. to 6 b.c., and Quintilius Varus was legate from 7 b.c. to a.d. 4 (note the one-year overlap in these two terms!), there is doubt as to whether Quirinius was ever governor of Syria at all.
By way of solution, let it be noted first of all that Luke says this was a “first” enrollment that took place under Quirinius (haute apographe prote egeneto). A “first” surely implies a second one sometime later. Luke was therefore well aware of that second census, taken by Quirinius again in a.d. 7, which Josephus alludes to in the passage cited above. We know this because Luke (who lived much closer to the time than Josephus did) also quotes Gamaliel as alluding to the insurrection of Judas of Galilee “in the days of the census taking” (Acts 5:27). The Romans tended to conduct a census every fourteen years, and so this comes out right for a first census in 7 b.c. and a second in a.d. 7.5
THE BURIAL PLACE OF JESUS CHRIST
Another detail of New Testament history that has been confirmed concerns the burial place of Jesus Christ. Contemporary archaeologist and historian Edwin Yamauchi reports:
The traditional site of Calvary and the associate tomb of Christ was desecrated by Hadrian in a.d. 135. In the fourth century, Helena, the mother of Constantine, was led to the site, where she then built the church of the Holy Sepulcher. Excavations in and around the church have helped demonstrate that it lay outside the wall in Jesus’ day. Shafts dug in the church show that the area was used as a quarry and was therefore extramural, a conclusion also supported by Kenyon’s excavations in the adjoining Muristan area. Thus there is no reason to doubt the general authenticity of the site.
In the course of repairs since 1954 remains of the original Constantinian structure have been exposed. In 1975 M. Broshi found near St. Helena’s chapel in the church a red and black picture of a Roman sailing ship and a Latin phrase Domine iuimus, “Lord, we went” (cf. Ps. 122:1). These words and the drawing were placed there by a pilgrim a.d. 330.
As for the actual tomb of Christ, quarrying operations may have obliterated the grave. A bench arcosolium (flat surface under a recessed arch) must have been used for Jesus. But early Christian pilgrims seem to have seen a trough arcololium (rock-cut sarcophagus); this raises the question of whether they saw the actual tomb.
In 1842 Otto Thenius, a German pastor, was attracted to a hill 150 yards north of the present walled city because of two cavities that give it a skull-like appearance. The hill was popularized among Protestants as an alternative site for Calvary by General Gordon in 1883. A seventeenth-century sketch of the hill demonstrates, however, that the cavities were not yet present then. The nearby “Garden Tomb” likewise has no claim to be the authentic tomb of Christ.6
SUMMARY AND CONCLUSION
After reviewing some highlights of the overwhelming evidence supporting the historical reliability of the New Testament, we can come to the following conclusions:
1. Archaeological and historical evidence concerning the historical events, places, names, and concepts mentioned in the New Testament conclusively affirms the basic historical reliability of the text. In addition, the nature of much of the evidence supports the biblical assertion that the New Testament writers wrote during the first century and were either eyewitnesses of the events they described, or had carefully checked the facts and evidence with eyewitnesses. Luke reminds us of this concern for historical accuracy.
2. Not only are the New Testament authors accurate in their general historical observations, they are also accurate and meticulous in their recording of details.
3. Such concern for accuracy in general and in particular, which is exhibited by the New Testament writers for their historical accounts, is commensurate with a fidelity for truth in matters of teachings, moral, and spiritually significant issues. While historical accuracy does not guarantee such fidelity, it is a correlative necessity that one who claims to bring truth should tell the truth in all matters with which he or she deals. We should expect no less than historical accuracy from those who wrote the New Testament and claimed to represent the one who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6).
4. If we accept the promise of Jesus Christ to send the Holy Spirit as our guide, teacher, and comforter, then we should not be surprised that the Holy Spirit guided the disciples and New Testament writers. “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you” (John 14:26).
We can trust the New Testament. Such accuracy is consistent with the inspiration and fidelity to truth claimed by the writers of the New Testament.


McDowell, J. (1997, c1991). Josh McDowell's handbook on apologetics (electronic ed.). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
 
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Beyond this, state your case about the prophecies you have in mind.
If one wishes to talk about the Divine Presence with an Atheist...Prophecies are not the way to do that.

Even as a lover of God, this Lover is not at all impressed with prophecies. And I think that with atheist the effect on them would be even more negative than it would with me.

.
 
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SaraJarvis

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The only reason one would maintain that the prophecy was written while Cyrus was alive is to discredit the prophecy's divine inspiration.

SaraJarvis, this again, is nothing new. For decades people have been suggesting different theories and hypotheses as to why Isaiah could not have actually made a prediction about Cyrus with the specificity that he did.

C.S. Lewis once famously observed that literary critics had come to many unfounded and incorrect conclusions about the works that he himself had written, and that therefore the judgments of literary critics concerning the New Testament simply could not be taken seriously. Lewis's critics lived in the same age as himself and it quite stunned the great man that their 'literary criticism' of his writings was so often really wide of the mark. Yet if such literary critics are discussing the Old Testament – rather than the New Testament – how much greater is the probability that such critics are going to be out of sympathy and out of any sort of 'time sync' understanding with the documents under discussion?​

Now, regarding the biblical book of Isaiah, for twenty five centuries no one dreamed of doubting that Isaiah the son of Amoz (who lived in the 8th Century B.C.) was the author of the entire book that goes under his name. The literary unity of Isaiah was not doubted until comparatively recent times. There is no evidence that the ancients who lived a few hundred years after Isaiah's time knew of any problems concerning Isaiah's writings. Even the translators of the Septuagint translation (approx. 200 BC) showed no indications of disbelieving that the 66 chapters of Isaiah are not Isaiah's work. Nor did the copyists of the text of Isaiah seem to know any other author except Isaiah the son of Amoz.​

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947 went even further in corroborating this book. Why? Because The Isaiah Scroll, found relatively intact, is 1000 years older than any previously known copy of Isaiah. In fact, the scrolls are the oldest group of Old Testament manuscripts ever found anywhere – and yet Isaiah is presented in exactly the same shape as in our current Old Testaments! There is no doubt that this discovery marked the beginning of the end for anti-supernaturalist criticism of Isaiah yet they did not give up their fight and even now the arguments of these people have great influence in certain circles.​

Many biblical critics try to maintain that Isaiah was actually written by at least two different people, sometimes three.​

So what have the older school of German Bible critics proposed about the Book of Isaiah?​



Basically, they have imposed three divisions on the book:
  1. First Isaiah. Chapters 1-39.
    Possibly actually written by somebody called 'Isaiah' although "higher critics" were far from convinced on this point.​
  2. Deutero-Isaiah. Chapters 40-55.
    Supposedly written by an unknown Jewish exile in Babylon during the sixth century B. C.​
  3. Trito-Isaiah. Chapters 56-66.
    Supposedly written by a post-exilic Palestinian because of 'considerations of structure and background ideas.'​
The reasons for imposing these divisions are somewhat related to the reasons that the now largely discredited Wellhausen Documentary Source Hypothesis imposed divisions upon the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible), that is, an assumption was made that the Bible could not possibly be 'divinely inspired' and that various redactors (editors) had, at various times, been involved who wanted to make a strong case for their claim that a supernatural, all-powerful God had called Israel to be His special people. These people (according to this theory) were quite prepared to steal religious myths and legends from anywhere in the ancient world as well as to lie about dating in order to make their case. So the rationalist Bible critics looked upon the Old Testament in a purely mechanical way, looking for clues within the text as to real authorship/time frame/motivation. They accepted the Hegelian 'history of religions' school of thought (again, largely discredited in this early 21st century) which believed that the oldest human religions were naïve and animistic and that monotheism (belief in one all-powerful God) was a late arrival and that the concept of a supernatural God was preposterous. Therefore it is entirely accurate to say that these people had largely already made their mind up on many of the main points and subjects of their “research” before they had even commenced it! Yet their obviously biased approach plainly - and quite outrageously! - breaks the rules of objective critical research, discussion and analysis.

'O.T. Allis is correct when he observes that the fragmentation of the Isaianic literature among multiple authors and along an extended time-line is historically the product of the ninteenth-century rationalism which refused to countenance predictive prophecy. Sadly, in addition to this, the prevailing spirit of scholarship was disposed to fragmentation rather than to holism, and in the case of Isaiah this meant that a literature bursting with internal evidence of its unity was rather made to burst into disparate pieces. The subsequent course of study has concentrated on the fragments until it is now widely assumed that the case for multiple authorship need no longer be argued but can be assumed. This is by no means so. The evidences of unity...require explanation and we must now explore the simplest explanation – that the whole literature is the product of Isaiah of Jerusalam.'



(The Prophecy of Isaiah, Alec Motyer, Inter-Varsity, 1993, page 25).​



So probably the main reason why the critics declare that the work of Isaiah is the work of at least two, if not three, writers is because they believed a prophet could not see beyond the horizon of his own time. It would be impossible for Isaiah (living around 700 BC) to speak of Cyrus who lived about 540 BC if divinely-inspired prophecy is impossible. Consequently, Isaiah 44:28 and Isaiah 45:1 are dated much later than 700 BC, and are said to have been written after the time of Cyrus by a writer who used the name “Isaiah” as a pen-name. So the critics proceed from the assumption that prediction of the distant future is impossible. They did not believe it was possible for Isaiah to speak of a distant Babylonian Captivity and of Cyrus as the deliverer from the Captivity long before Cyrus was even born!



Therefore the higher critics state that these sections of the book of Isaiah must have been written after the events actually occurred, and then they were made to appear as if they were predictive prophecies - in other words, if we should believe these people, at least certain sections of this book are a fraud! Of course, the same genre of Bible critics did exactly the same thing with Daniel; finding fulfilled prophecies within that book they insisted that the book was written several hundred years later in order to explain away fulfilled prophecy. See The Amazing Prophecy of Daniel and how it Defies Sceptics.



But the positing of a second and third Isaiah by Bible critics is despite the complete lack of textual or historical evidence of any kind which they are able to produce and it is based purely upon perceived differences in theme and subject matter, language, style and theological ideas. However, there are at least forty phrases common to all sections of Isaiah many of which are the idiosyncratic sort of phrases tending to be used by specific writers. The phrase 'The Holy One of Israel', for example, is found an almost equal number of times in (so-called) First and Deutero-Isaiah (12 times in chapters 1-39 and 13 times in chapters 40-66). There are also many similarities of theme, style, subject matter, and theology which these Bible critics apparently just ignored because it did not fit in with their already-decided fragmentary view of this book. Isaiah 40-66 shows little knowledge of Babylonian geography, but great familiarity with that of Palestine, and the author of (so-called) “Deutero-Isaiah” appears to assume that the cities of Judah are still standing, which would surely not have been the case if the author were writing during or just after the Babylonian captivity.​



A Christian View



For our part, Christians are bound to reject these entirely artificial and imposed divisions upon this great book.​



The New Bible Commentary sums up much of what is essential for us to appreciate,​



'In favour of the unity of Isaiah all evidence that can be adduced from outside sources is unanimous. External evidence is all in favour of the unity of the book. It is only within the last hundred and fifty years that any question at all has been raised. Until then the unhesistating belief of the Jewish community and the Christian Church had regarded the whole work as proceeding from the pen of Isaiah the son of Amoz. The LXX (the Septuagint) gives no hint of any kind of dual (or triple) authorship. In no better way has the old belief been recounted than by the son of Sirach who tells of the record of of the days of Hezekiah and says that Isaiah the prophet.....

Saw by an excellent spirit what would come to pass at the last; And he comforted them that mourned in Sion. He shewed the things that should be to the end of time. And the hidden things or ever they came.” (Ecclus. xlviii. 24-25, RV).





Side by side with this are to be set the many passages from the New Testament where reference is made to Isaiah and his words are quoted. 'Isaiah the prophet' is spoken of irrespective of the part of the book from which the words are taken. The actual references are divided almost equally between the sections of the book...this in itself is a confirmation of the view of the external evidence and that of the tradition of the Fathers.' (New Bible Commentary, Inter-Varsity, 1954, pages 558-559).​



But the most conclusive New Testament Isaiah citation is probably John 12:38-41. Verse 40 quotes Isaiah 6:9-10 (from the first section of the book of Isaiah). Verse 38 quotes Isaiah 53:1 (from the second section of the book of Isaiah). And then the inspired Apostle John comments in verse 41: 'These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.' Obviously, as far as John was concerned, it was the same Isaiah who personally beheld the glory of Christ in the temple-vision of Isaiah 6, as the Isaiah who also spoke of Christ in Isaiah 53:1. If it was not the same writer who composed both chapter 6 and chapter 53 (of the book of Isaiah), then the New Testament writer must have been in error! So those who follow the theory of 2 or 3 different Isaiahs must concede the existence of errors in the New Testament and, if so, this would be a very serious matter.​



To conclude, due to the influence of certain scholars of the German critical school of around a hundred and twenty years ago numerous biblically critical works have come to assume the existence of 'three Isaiahs' yet there remains quite powerful and persuasive evidence that the testimony of Scripture is actually accurate once the anti-supernaturalist bias of a whole school of atheistic Bible critics is swept away. As in the case of the 'documentary theory,' no evidence has ever been discovered from any source to corroborate a theory which is rejected by the growing number of evangelical Bible scholars and is now generally losing ground everywhere.

Robin A. Brace, 2006.​






Bibliography


Allis, O.T. The Unity of Isaiah. Tyndale Press: 1951.

Archer, Gleason. Isaiah, The Wycliffe Bible Commentary.
Calvin, John. Commentary on the Book of the Prophet Isaiah. Translated by William Pringle.
Edinburgh: Calvin Translation Society, 1850-1954.
Clements, Ronald Ernest. Isaiah and the Deliverance of Jerusalem:
A Study of the Interpretation of Prophecy in the Old Testament. Sheffield, England: J.S.O.T. Press, 1980.
Delitzsch, Franz. Isaiah. In vol. 7: Isaiah. Two volumes in one. Translated by James Martin.
Commentary on the Old Testament.10 vols. N.p.: Reprinted ed., Grand Rapids: Wm.B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1973.
Gordon, Cyrus H. Higher Critics and Forbidden Fruit, Christianity Today, November 23, 1959, in Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., A Christianity Today Reader Westwood, N.J.: Fleming H. Revell Co., 1968.
Lewis, C.S. Miracles.New York: Macmillan, 1960.
Motyer, Alec. The Prophecy of Isaiah. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity, 1993.
New Bible Commentary. London: Inter-Varsity, 1954.​



Material courtesy of:
Oh, so many flawed arguments.

I would write an essay-lenth post, too, but I don't have the time on my hands (nor the inclination) to sit and cherry-pick quotes. You might also want to stop putting Lewis on such a pedestal; he's not THAT good, and a novel writer is hardy someone to put all of your faith in.

Give me some new material (from 2000 onwards) written by none-religious scientists and historians that support your claim. I very much doubt that you will find one. Your research is conducted from an entirely theological angle - I have researched both sides of the fence. Even other Christians here find fault in the prophecy of Cyrus. If people have been debating how wrong the prophecy was, then you might wish to consider WHY, instead of reeling off quotes.

Sorry, but you're still not offering proof. There are so many contradictions and mistakes in that prophesy that you aren't even addressing.

This: "For our part, Christians are bound to reject these entirely artificial and imposed divisions upon this great book", says it all. So no matter what proof is offered that this prophecy lark is utter nonsense, you will continue to deny it.
 
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Elioenai26

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Oh, so many flawed arguments.

I would write an essay-lenth post, too, but I don't have the time on my hands (nor the inclination) to sit and cherry-pick quotes. You might also want to stop putting Lewis on such a pedestal; he's not THAT good, and a novel writer is hardy someone to put all of your faith in.

Give me some new material (from 2000 onwards) written by none-religious scientists and historians that support your claim. I very much doubt that you will find one. Your research is conducted from an entirely theological angle - I have researched both sides of the fence. Even other Christians here find fault in the prophecy of Cyrus. If people have been debating how wrong the prophecy was, then you might wish to consider WHY, instead of reeling off quotes.

Sorry, but you're still not offering proof. There are so many contradictions and mistakes in that prophesy that you aren't even addressing.

This: "For our part, Christians are bound to reject these entirely artificial and imposed divisions upon this great book", says it all. So no matter what proof is offered that this prophecy lark is utter nonsense, you will continue to deny it.

Offer some proof as to why I or anyone else should not accept Isaiah's prophecy as being some 150 years before Cyrus's birth.

The burden of proof is on you.
 
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createdtoworship

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Oh, so many flawed arguments.

I would write an essay-lenth post, too, but I don't have the time on my hands (nor the inclination) to sit and cherry-pick quotes. You might also want to stop putting Lewis on such a pedestal; he's not THAT good, and a novel writer is hardy someone to put all of your faith in.

Give me some new material (from 2000 onwards) written by none-religious scientists and historians that support your claim. I very much doubt that you will find one. Your research is conducted from an entirely theological angle - I have researched both sides of the fence. Even other Christians here find fault in the prophecy of Cyrus. If people have been debating how wrong the prophecy was, then you might wish to consider WHY, instead of reeling off quotes.

Sorry, but you're still not offering proof. There are so many contradictions and mistakes in that prophesy that you aren't even addressing.

This: "For our part, Christians are bound to reject these entirely artificial and imposed divisions upon this great book", says it all. So no matter what proof is offered that this prophecy lark is utter nonsense, you will continue to deny it.

what is your problem with isaiah?
 
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Buy Bologna

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what is your problem with isaiah?
I like Isaiah.

We get to see how loving the god of the bible is.


Let see,

3:16,17.. read it

Isaiah 3:16,17 NIV - The LORD says, “The women of Zion are - Bible Gateway


Isaiah 9:19,20. God will make every man kill his brother and then force him to eat "the flesh of his own arm." ? What the.......?

Isaiah 9:19-20 NIV - By the wrath of the LORD Almighty the - Bible Gateway

Isaiah 13:15-18. Here if you are captured, "infants will be diced up?" what the? (please tell me that I'm taking it out of context or something... not diced up literally but diced up metaphorically or spiritually or something, that's horrible). And their is something about things being stolen and wives violated (raped). And it goes on about having no compassion for children.

( I'm not gna keep linking the scripture just look it up, but I like that site I was linking. It even will give you an audio of it in an awesome voice, it's not James Earl Jones but still pretty good).

24:1-6 God will destroy/kill/burn everything. Except for a few.

God created evil? 45:7.... IDK, Tell how I'm taking that out of context if you would.


 
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ToddNotTodd

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miracles are possible, if God told you to eat a frog to cure your flue, it would....cure the flue. It is not beyond God to do such things. In the old testament many were told to wash in the river to cure their illnesses. Other times Jesus spat in the mud and rubbed it on someones eyes to cure them of blindness. He uses to foolish things to confound the wise.

Flue?

No wonder you complain about my use of the word "predilection"...
 
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SaraJarvis

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Offer some proof as to why I or anyone else should not accept Isaiah's prophecy as being some 150 years before Cyrus's birth.

The burden of proof is on you.
Why is the burden of proof on me? You haven't offered any proof otherwise; you simply copy and pasted a web-page, which I just came across while searching for a website that I wanted to cite from. You should have cited that as a website, by the way, or put it all in quotation marks, else you're giving the impression that you wrote it yourself.

I have already posted an article offering evidence to the contrary, but if needed, I can always post more.

Let's start off easy - Wikipedia.

"Traditionally, the entire book of Isaiah is believed to pre-date the rule of Cyrus by about 120 years. These particular passages (Isaiah 40-55, often referred to as Deutero-Isaiah) are believed by most modern critical scholars to have been added by another author toward the end of the Babylonian exile (ca. 536 BC).[57] Whereas Isaiah 1-39 (referred to as Proto-Isaiah) saw the destruction of Israel as imminent, and the restoration in the future, Deutero-Isaiah speaks of the destruction in the past (Isa 42:24-25), and the restoration as imminent (Isa 42:1-9). Notice, for example, the change in temporal perspective from (Isa 39:6-7), where the Babylonian Captivity is cast far in the future, to (Isa 43:14), where the Israelites are spoken of as already in Babylon.[58]"

Secondly, Cyrus the Great was born 600 BC or 576 BC.

Then we have this:
" There are three falsehoods found in these Babylonian prophecies in Jeremiah and Isaiah. First, both Jeremiah and Isaiah state that the complete destruction of Babylon is imminent at the hands of the Medes and Persians. ‘Her time is at hand,' the prophecy in Isaiah states, ‘and it will not be prolonged.' Similarly, Jeremiah stated that Babylon would be destroyed after ‘the seventy years of exile are over' at the time when the Jewish people returned from exile. Both prophets were given to say that ‘Babylon will become a complete ruin, without inhabitants forever.' Both prophets were given to predict that Babylon would be destroyed in violent warfare.
What actually happened was as follows. In 539 Cyrus conquered the northern part of the Babylonian nation and then entered into the city of Babylon which surrendered without a fight. Babylon became one of the richest cities in the Persian empire. It was a center of Jewish learning (the source of the famous Babylonian Talmud). It continues to exist to this very day in Iraq. As it states in the letter of Peter in the Church Testament, ‘Greetings from your sister church in Babylon.' As for Tyre, which also did not get destroyed, as it states in the gospels, Joshua visited Tyre in one of his missionary journeys.
It is truly amazing the number of false prophecies found in the books of the prophets. In almost every case these false prophecies concern warring and cursing and stirring up bloodlust or a desire for vengeance or domination (which should tell you something right there.)" False prophecy. False prophets in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Isaiah in the Bible
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There are so many contradictions. I could post more, but I don't see the point in simply swapping copy and pasted arguments. Now the burden of proof is on you.

 
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