what messianic prophecies where not fulfilled by jesus?

[BruceDLimber]

What exactly is a Biblical month?

In prophecy, 30 years, each day being a year.

(This is explained in various books.)

Peace,

Bruce

 

[LoAmmi]

In prophecy, 30 years, each day being a year.

(This is explained in various books.)

Peace,

Bruce

The original thing I commented on was:

On the day of this event, the Tribulation begins and lasts for 7 years, or 2,520 days (30 days to a Biblical month).

That is not 30 years being discussed.

I know that in the Tanakh, weeks are discussed as a 7 year period. So that 7 weeks is actually 49 years and the like. But this is not what they are stating. This statement seems to be suggesting that a month was always 30 days in the Bible... which is not true.

 

[Farandaway]

.

 

[razeontherock]

The original thing I commented on was:

That is not 30 years being discussed.

I know that in the Tanakh, weeks are discussed as a 7 year period. So that 7 weeks is actually 49 years and the like. But this is not what they are stating. This statement seems to be suggesting that a month was always 30 days in the Bible... which is not true.

If the ancient Jewish calendar was lunar, wouldn't a month be a ... 28 day cycle?

 

[LoAmmi]

If the ancient Jewish calendar was lunar, wouldn't a month be a ... 28 day cycle?

No, the lunar cycle (full moon to full moon) is something like 29.5 days. Our calendar has a mix of 29 and 30 day months.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I know that in the Tanakh, weeks are discussed as a 7 year period. So that 7 weeks is actually 49 years and the like. But this is not what they are stating. This statement seems to be suggesting that a month was always 30 days in the Bible... which is not true.

Agreed.

But a prophetic month is 30 days, and this is the value used in the various time prophecies such that, for example, 2,300 days becomes 2,300 years; a week seven years, a month 30 years, etc..

Regards,

Bruce

 

[LoAmmi]

Agreed.

But a prophetic month is 30 days, and this is the value used in the various time prophecies such that, for example, 2,300 days becomes 2,300 years; a week seven years, a month 30 years, etc..

Regards,

Bruce

I cannot think of any place in the Tanakh where any time is given in this fashion. I am willing to be wrong, but I have only seen weeks mentioned which would be 7 years.

If it is not in the Tanakh, I would think this might not be something that exists within Jewish tradition.

 

[JJWhite]

... but I have only seen weeks mentioned which would be 7 years.

May I have the chapter and verse number/s? I'm interested in looking into this and comparing to what we have in our ahadith.

God bless,

JJ

 

[Enkil]

You know what history shows? Christians trying to crush Jews. Trying to force conversions. Taking the Torah scrolls, taking the Talmuds, burning them. Forcing them out of villages, out of countries. Killing them.

History would suggest that Judaism hurts Christianity to death as Jews are more than happy to be left alone but their Christian neighbors throughout history have wanted them gone.

And yet, the Jews are no strangers to killing their own prophets, or despising their own God. In fact, many of Israel's greatest enemies have been other Jews. Look at Marx, who wrote that Jews believed in a "huckstering god" and were master hucksters themselves in his "The Jewish Question" treatise. What did that mentality lead to? The common hatred of Jews amongst international socialists and national socialists to this very day which kills and threatens to kill millions. But these terrible things, including the hate of God, are not Jewish phenomena. It is a human phenomena, as man is a debased creature that does not enjoy the burning fire of God's rebuke.

But as for the Messiah you speak of in this thread. The 70 Weeks of Daniel have long been fulfilled. Christ was the one who fulfilled them. There can be no other, and no one who ever impersonates Him will prosper.

 

[LoAmmi]

And yet, the Jews are no strangers to killing their own prophets, or despising their own God. In fact, many of Israel's greatest enemies have been other Jews. Look at Marx, who wrote that Jews believed in a "huckstering god" and were master hucksters themselves in his "The Jewish Question" treatise. What did that mentality lead to? The common hatred of Jews amongst international socialists and national socialists to this very day which kills and threatens to kill millions. But these terrible things, including the hate of God, are not Jewish phenomena. It is a human phenomena, as man is a debased creature that does not enjoy the burning fire of God's rebuke.

None of this makes what happened historically to Jews OK.

But as for the Messiah you speak of in this thread. The 70 Weeks of Daniel have long been fulfilled. Christ was the one who fulfilled them. There can be no other, and no one who ever impersonates Him will prosper.

No, that refers to the Temple, not the messiah. No time frame was ever given for the coming of the messiah.

 

[smaneck]

May I have the chapter and verse number/s? I'm interested in looking into this and comparing to what we have in our ahadith.

God bless,

JJ

How specific is the ahadith when it comes to biblical prophecies?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And yet, the Jews are no strangers to killing their own prophets, or despising their own God. In fact, many of Israel's greatest enemies have been other Jews. Look at Marx, who wrote that Jews believed in a "huckstering god" and were master hucksters themselves in his "The Jewish Question" treatise. What did that mentality lead to? The common hatred of Jews amongst international socialists and national socialists to this very day which kills and threatens to kill millions. But these terrible things, including the hate of God, are not Jewish phenomena. It is a human phenomena, as man is a debased creature that does not enjoy the burning fire of God's rebuke.

But as for the Messiah you speak of in this thread. The 70 Weeks of Daniel have long been fulfilled. Christ was the one who fulfilled them. There can be no other, and no one who ever impersonates Him will prosper.

Jesus and Revelation mentions Daniel's prophecy

Young) Matthew 24:15 `Whenever, therefore, ye may see the abomination of the desolation, that was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever is reading let him observe)

Young) Mark 13:14 `And when ye may see the abomination of the desolation, that was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (whoever is reading let him understand), then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains;

Revelation 1:3Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it--for the time is nigh!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7636872-13/#post59925516
The 70th week??????

I am confused by how many believe the 70th week is the tribulation period. There is absolutely no biblical reason to come to this conclusion. I mean pretribber, mid tribber, and even my fellow post trib believers are in agreement on this and yet it is not true. Acts 3: 25 tells us what the covenant was ''Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.''

And Galatians 3:17 tells us who confirmed it ''And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.''

Jesus even quotes Daniel 9:27 when declaring Hid blood was the blood of the new covenant
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The 70th week began when Jesus was baptized, He ended the sacrifices 3.5 yrs later when He became our sacrifice, and it ended 3.5 yrs after the cross when the gosple went to the Gentiles.

 

[Enkil]

None of this makes what happened historically to Jews OK.

No, but it does reveal that human nature is... well, awful, and that you cannot point to Christians without also pointing a finger at yourselves, as we are all men. Though there are less people who hate me just because I am Hispanic than there are that hate you just because you're Jewish.

No, that refers to the Temple, not the messiah. No time frame was ever given for the coming of the messiah.

Yes there was:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


It lists it pretty specifically, from the restoration of Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks. While there is much debate on exact years or whether the entire 70 weeks were fulfilled with the Roman invasion of Israel and the destruction of the temple, there certainly is no room to add roughly 2000 more years to "seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks" to the present day to this timeline if Jesus was not the Messiah.

If you have read Josephus, you would see that the siege of Jerusalem was incredibly horrifying and destructive. There were signs and wonders; there was mass death, starvation, murder and tragedy. Do you suppose that all this happened because of some random fluke, and that God would not forewarn, ask for repentance, and save the country or otherwise leave some way out after a reasonable amount of time? But as things stand, if Jesus is not the Christ, the Jews have long been abandoned. There has been no prophet to rise up to save the country. There has been no supernatural happening. The people are largely secular, and the religious among them are a minority, whereas in the past God had struck down mighty armies or erected firey pillars to guide them out of Egypt. They are harassed on every side by enemies, and they have always been harassed by enemies on every side, all the way to the present day. If Jesus is the Christ, then salvation and full restoration of Israel for the people of Israel is right there at the asking. The explanation is there, freedom from sin due to Christ's ultimate sacrifice is achieved, (though we continue to sin, we are washed, we are saved by Jesus Christ forever) and all we await for now is the final judgment that will come upon the world. If Christ is not the Messiah, we are all doomed, as there will be no other who can ever fulfill the prophecies.

 

[LoAmmi]

Yes there was:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You are making "messiah the Prince" and "messiah" the same person. In Jewish understanding, this is not correct. These are two people as can be seen because the time frames are far apart.

25. And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times. 26. And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.

The annointed king mentioned first is Cyrus, as you can see in Isaiah 45:
1. So said the Lord to His anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I held, to flatten nations before him, and the loins of kings I will loosen, to open portals before him, and gates shall not be closed.

and then in Ezra, you see him giving the command to rebuild the Temple
1. And in the first year of Cyrus, the king of Persia, at the completion of the word of the Lord from the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord aroused the Spirit of Cyrus, the king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom, and also in writing, saying: 2. "So said Cyrus, the king of Persia, 'All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of the heavens delivered to me, and He commanded me to build Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judea.

Cyrus is giving the word right there. That is the messiah the prince.

The second part is the destruction of the temple with the high priest being killed. The coming monarch is the Romans who destroy the Temple and such.

Not having a prophet or anything like that is not a deal breaking. You are creating a problem for my religion. If I created ones for yours, would it make you doubt?

 

[LoAmmi]

No, but it does reveal that human nature is... well, awful, and that you cannot point to Christians without also pointing a finger at yourselves, as we are all men. Though there are less people who hate me just because I am Hispanic than there are that hate you just because you're Jewish.

I only do this because he continually states that Jews will take over and kill gentiles/Christians.

 

[Enkil]

You are making "messiah the Prince" and "messiah" the same person. In Jewish understanding, this is not correct. These are two people as can be seen because the time frames are far apart.

25. And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times. 26. And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.

The annointed king mentioned first is Cyrus, as you can see in Isaiah 45:
1. So said the Lord to His anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I held, to flatten nations before him, and the loins of kings I will loosen, to open portals before him, and gates shall not be closed.

and then in Ezra, you see him giving the command to rebuild the Temple
1. And in the first year of Cyrus, the king of Persia, at the completion of the word of the Lord from the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord aroused the Spirit of Cyrus, the king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom, and also in writing, saying: 2. "So said Cyrus, the king of Persia, 'All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of the heavens delivered to me, and He commanded me to build Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judea.

Cyrus is giving the word right there. That is the messiah the prince.

The second part is the destruction of the temple with the high priest being killed. The coming monarch is the Romans who destroy the Temple and such.

Not having a prophet or anything like that is not a deal breaking. You are creating a problem for my religion. If I created ones for yours, would it make you doubt?

Using your scripture, the first problem that comes to mind is that it was Cyrus who gave the order. And the scripture says, "... from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be]"

IOW, the order from Cyrus comes first, and then "until" Cyrus shall be? It is better to be read as, from the emergence of the word to restore Jerusalem to Cyrus the King shall be 7 weeks, threescore and two weeks. Unless this was seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks to that "second" anointed one, which would mean that Cyrus was not the anointed king mentioned.

Secondly, using your version of scripture again,

24. Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.

The end of the prophecy is that of the destruction of the Temple in 70ad. From the Jewish perspective, this did not anoint the holy of holies, bring an end to sin, expiate iniquity, or bring eternal righteousness. Even if the Temple had not been destroyed, it could not have done these things, as every year there are sacrifices anew for the sins of the people.

The only logical conclusion, then, is that it was Christ who "terminated the transgression" and "brought an end to sin," as it was he who conquered over sin and death on the Cross.

Now this second "anointed one" you mentioned specifically as the High Priest when the Temple was destroyed. That would be Phannias ben Samuel, who was chosen by lot for the office of high priesthood, and was not actually eligible to be a high priest.

Did God anoint him?

And what do you think of the signs and miracles that happened according to Josephus's account of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple? Was there any indication that these people were slated for anything else but extreme judgment? The doors to the temples opened on their own! There was a comet in the sky with the shape of a sword that hung over the city! The temple opened up and a voice said "Let us depart hence!"

But you suppose that this anointed one was Phannias ben Samuel?

This rendering of the prophecy is illogical.

 

[LoAmmi]

This rendering of the prophecy is illogical.

I am doing this all from memory. I did not look up anything.

Further, I am not allowed, in this place, to link to any place that could explain this better as it would clearly be seen as promoting.

 

[LoAmmi]

Ok, I looked up what I had read before and I explained it completely poorly and had things wrong. Sometimes completely wrong. Relying on memory is not always a good thing. However, as I said, I would not be allowed to link it here. If given some time, I could try to type it up.

Here's the thing though. Do you really believe that learned Jews did not have an explanation for these things and just ignore it? I am sure these have been answered for a long time. It is clear that the only answer is not "Jesus".

 

[Enkil]

Ok, I looked up what I had read before and I explained it completely poorly and had things wrong. Sometimes completely wrong. Relying on memory is not always a good thing. However, as I said, I would not be allowed to link it here. If given some time, I could try to type it up.

Here's the thing though. Do you really believe that learned Jews did not have an explanation for these things and just ignore it? I am sure these have been answered for a long time. It is clear that the only answer is not "Jesus".

There are plenty of "learned" people who have explanations for all sorts of contradictory things. It means nothing and should not be trusted. You should not base your confidence on the assumption that some smart Rabbi somewhere disproved all Christianity. You must search it out yourself and make your own conclusions. Such was how I handled it before I converted.

 

[LoAmmi]

There are plenty of "learned" people who have explanations for all sorts of contradictory things. It means nothing and should not be trusted. You should not base your confidence on the assumption that some smart Rabbi somewhere disproved all Christianity. You must search it out yourself and make your own conclusions. Such was how I handled it before I converted.

I have searched. How could you assume I have not? Because I have not reached the same answer as you?
The explanations i have read, and I must look for them when I do not understand, have been clear and made more sense than the magic number Christians give me.

I do not find Christianity to offer me anything I cannot get in Judaism. I can be forgiven of sin. I can be right with HaShem.