what messianic prophecies where not fulfilled by jesus?

[smaneck]

I am doing this all from memory. I did not look up anything.

Further, I am not allowed, in this place, to link to any place that could explain this better as it would clearly be seen as promoting.

I've never had any problems posting links, LoAmmi. This is not CARM.

 

[Arthra]

Prophetic time has nothing to do with the lunar calendar per se.. It has to do with scripture:

In scripture, Prophetic Years of 360 days or years has been interpreted as being equal to prophetic months of 30 days or years which has been interpreted as being equal to one "time". When "times, time, and half a time" have been mentioned in one verse and subsequently 42 months and 1260 days have been mentioned in other verses as found in Daniel and Revelation, these periods have been taken by many as talking about equal periods of time.

Prophetic Year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Enkil]

I have searched. How could you assume I have not? Because I have not reached the same answer as you?

I assumed it because you said: "Here's the thing though. Do you really believe that learned Jews did not have an explanation for these things and just ignore it? I am sure these have been answered for a long time. It is clear that the only answer is not "Jesus"."

"I am sure" doesn't sound like "I know, I checked it out myself." The appeal to authority was a red flag, since I know, I checked it out myself, that even the best of authorities can be horribly deceived. In fact, the chains of tradition are the most dangerous chains of all. Just because it is a long standing belief, doesn't mean it is a long standing fact. People have a habit of turning their brains off, especially on religious topics, if "tradition" held such and such to be so.

I do not find Christianity to offer me anything I cannot get in Judaism. I can be forgiven of sin. I can be right with HaShem.

How does one accomplish this in your Judaism?

 

[LoAmmi]

I assumed it because you said: "Here's the thing though. Do you really believe that learned Jews did not have an explanation for these things and just ignore it? I am sure these have been answered for a long time. It is clear that the only answer is not "Jesus"."

"I am sure" doesn't sound like "I know, I checked it out myself." The appeal to authority was a red flag, since I know, I checked it out myself, that even the best of authorities can be horribly deceived. In fact, the chains of tradition are the most dangerous chains of all. Just because it is a long standing belief, doesn't mean it is a long standing fact. People have a habit of turning their brains off, especially on religious topics, if "tradition" held such and such to be so.

You could have asked. "I am sure" as in "I am certain" as in "I have seen". Sometimes when simply writing back to someone language creeps in. Please ask before you assume. You know what they say about those who assume?

Yes, that also included Christian authorities and the chain of tradition that Christianity carries. We have both investigated and have come away with different answers.

How does one accomplish this in your Judaism?

Repenting. How does one do it in Christianity?

 

[razeontherock]

Repenting. How does one do it in Christianity?

Good answer!


"to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;" (Ephesians 2:15) This can be read in such a way that it refers to Jew and Gentile

 

[Enkil]

Repenting. How does one do it in Christianity?

Forgiveness of sins is assured by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which fulfilled the law of Moses and brought about the end of sin and the conquest of death for all those who believe. This is why the prophecy of Daniel's 70 Weeks, which promises an end to sin, also ends with the destruction of the Temple. It signified a terrible judgment, but also the end of the temple age.

It is not what one "does." There is no requirement to go to the person you offended and making restitution of any kind. There is not any requirement to do the same (perform restitution) for God, either. It is a free gift, offered to all regardless of good works, won purely by the works of Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[LoAmmi]

Forgiveness of sins is assured by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which fulfilled the law of Moses and brought about the end of sin and the conquest of death for all those who believe. This is why the prophecy of Daniel's 70 Weeks, which promises an end to sin, also ends with the destruction of the Temple. It signified a terrible judgment, but also the end of the temple age.

I see no such thing. We did not need a sacrifice to be forgiven, and the entire concept of fulfilling the Law seems just laughable to me. As if it was given so that one person could do it and then we could be done with it. Nowhere, ever, in the Tanakh does it say such a thing. "Keep the Torah until messiah, then you're off the hook!". It says quite the contrary.

If I keep all the laws of the US in my lifetime, do all the laws of the US become null and void? We can live in the US of grace instead of laws, right?

No no. Not something needed. Daniel's 70 weeks does not promise that.

It is not what one "does." There is no requirement to go to the person you offended and making restitution of any kind. There is not any requirement to do the same (perform restitution) for God, either. It is a free gift, offered to all regardless of good works, won purely by the works of Jesus Christ Himself.

Oh, good to know that you don't have to repent of your sin and can just do whatever you want. Is that what you are saying? If you sin, you just shrug it off and, hey, that's cool.

I think your fellow Christians will not agree with you.

 

[razeontherock]

the entire concept of fulfilling the Law seems just laughable to me. As if it was given so that one person could do it and then we could be done with it.

Not only do I disagree with the idea that forgiveness requires no restitution to those we've wronged, the idea of Jesus' fulfillment of the law is specifically so that we will become the righteousness of God. (2 Cor 5:21)

Truly a humbling thought

 

[LoAmmi]

Not only do I disagree with the idea that forgiveness requires no restitution to those we've wronged, the idea of Jesus' fulfillment of the law is specifically so that we will become the righteousness of God. (2 Cor 5:21)

Truly a humbling thought

That's what I thought the standard position was.

I cannot comprehend someone thinking that they do not need to seek forgiveness for sin.

 

[LoAmmi]

Here's something else:

You are solely relying on Daniel 9. I haven't seen you pull anything else up. Let's be honest, Daniel 9 is not exactly the most clear scripture you could ask for. You are basically asking me to accept your point of view based upon something that I have trouble understanding without a lot of research. You are also REALLY relying on the word "messiah" there to be THE messiah, when in the text there is nothing to support that argument. THE messiah is never identified as that in the text.

My argument relies on a lot of scripture, which you can see posted throughout this thread. The messianic task lays unfinished. That is the measure of the messiah. That is my position.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Enkil
How does one accomplish this in your Judaism?

Repenting. How does one do it in Christianity?

Shalom.
Generally if one repents, they strive to reform/change their ways I would think. What would be the hebrew word for "repent"?

Mark 1:15 And saying "has been filled the time and has neared the Kingdom of the God.
Be ye reforming/repenting!/metanoeite <3340> (5720)! and be ye believing! in the Gospel".

Reve 2:5 Be thou remembering then! whence thou hast fallen and reform/repent/metanohson <3340> (5657) thou! and the first works do!

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

3340. metanoeo met-an-o-eh'-o from 3326 and 3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):--repent.
3326. meta met-ah' a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment;
3539. noieo noy-eh'-o from 3563; to exercise the mind (observe), i.e. (figuratively) to comprehend, heed:--consider, perceive, think, understand

.....

 

[LoAmmi]

Generally if one repents, they strive to reform/change their ways I would think. What would be the hebrew word for "repent"?

I don't think you'll find that word used exactly. I use it because it is a good word in English. You'll find in the Tanakh that we are told that when we are somewhere that sacrifices are not possible, such as right now, we turn back to HaShem and He will remember our sin no more. If it was good enough for King Solomon to say, it is good enough for me.

 

[razeontherock]

"turn back." To most those words are far more meaningful than repent. And with a blast from the past:

Godspell- Turn Back O&#39; Man - YouTube

 

[Enkil]

I see no such thing. We did not need a sacrifice to be forgiven,

Exo 12:27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

Exodus 30:10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

2Ch 29:24 And the priests killed them, and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel: for the king commanded that the burnt offering and the sin offering should be made for all Israel.

Lev 16:13-22 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not: (14) And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times. (15) Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: (16) And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. (17) And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. (18) And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. (19) And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. (20) And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: (21) And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: (22) And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Judging from this, looked like sin offerings were pretty important to those folks. I couldn't find any scriptures that stated it was not important to offer sin offerings to God. In fact, to mock it could easily have led to death:

Lev 10:1-2 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. (2) And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

...and the entire concept of fulfilling the Law seems just laughable to me.

Daniel 9 predicts that these would be fulfilled within the 70 weeks:

1. Finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins.

2. Make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness.

3. Seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Sounds pretty fulfilling to me.

As if it was given so that one person could do it and then we could be done with it.

Take it up with Isaiah

Isa 53:1-12 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? (2) For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. (3) He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (4) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (5) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. (8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. (9) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. (10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (12) Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Nowhere, ever, in the Tanakh does it say such a thing. "Keep the Torah until messiah, then you're off the hook!". It says quite the contrary.

Recall the prophets of old how they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Christ fills the believer with His Holy Spirit. Every single one of us. We are a new creature in the sight of God.

To repent is to turn away from sin and come to God. It is not necessarily a taking of a list of each individual sin and saying, "Okay, I repent of that one. I repent of this one." It is a new nature that utterly despises sin, turns away from it, asks forgiveness, and seeks after God. But failing in some way, perhaps in a way that the person could not see, does not mean that this person is damned. Sanctification is an ongoing process. This is why I word it that way, lest people believe that if some person, perhaps, who was a Christian, died because he made a bad decision and got drunk that night with an idiot brother (I did that once, though not the dying part), that suddenly his sin is not forgiven him and he is damned. The thief on the cross, for example, probably didn't have time to repent of every single individual sin he had before death; yet he was promised "this day you shall be with me in paradise." It also does not mean that a Christian sins as he pleases. Our nature is new, and our heart belongs to God, and it is the heart where God looks. If a Christian sins and sins, and takes pleasure in that sin, he likely was never a believer in the first place. Certainly, repenting is the first thing required to do. Who comes to Christ, who did not first recognize he has sin and needs forgiveness? However, it is not a works based sense of repentance, that you must be done mechanically. Once you are saved, you are clean. You are washed. From thereon, you grow in your relationship with God. The work is complete on the cross, and the salvation is assured for all those who believe in their heart that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

 

[LoAmmi]

Judging from this, looked like sin offerings were pretty important to those folks. I couldn't find any scriptures that stated it was not important to offer sin offerings to God. In fact, to mock it could easily have led to death:

Lev 10:1-2 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. (2) And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Your search is faulty. There is more than one method to gain forgiveness in the Tanakh. Your focusing on one and calling it a day.

Daniel 9 predicts that these would be fulfilled within the 70 weeks:

1. Finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins.

2. Make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness.

3. Seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Sounds pretty fulfilling to me.

This is your opinion of what you are reading. I disagree.

Take it up with Isaiah

That's about Israel not the messiah. Please show me, using the text, how you know it is the messiah.

Recall the prophets of old how they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Christ fills the believer with His Holy Spirit. Every single one of us. We are a new creature in the sight of God.

What am I supposed to recall again? That the spirit of HaShem, the force that HaShem uses on Earth not a separate person, is with the prophets? Yes, I know that. You may believe you are filled with whatever you would like.

To repent is to turn away from sin and come to God. It is not necessarily a taking of a list of each individual sin and saying, "Okay, I repent of that one. I repent of this one." It is a new nature that utterly despises sin, turns away from it, asks forgiveness, and seeks after God. But failing in some way, perhaps in a way that the person could not see, does not mean that this person is damned. This is why I word it that way, lest people believe that if some person, perhaps, who was a Christian, died because he made a bad decision and got drunk that night with an idiot brother (I did that once, though not the dying part), that suddenly his sin is not forgiven him and he is damned. The thief on the cross, for example, probably didn't have time to repent of every single individual sin he had before death; yet he was promised "this day you shall be with me in paradise." It also does not mean that a Christian sins as he pleases. Our nature is new, and our heart belongs to God, and it is the heart where God looks. If a Christian sins and sins, and takes pleasure in that sin, he likely was never a believer in the first place.

The work is complete on the cross, and the salvation is assured for all those who believe in their heart that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

This is your opinion.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus Generally if one repents, they strive to reform/change their ways I would think. What would be the hebrew word for "repent"?

Mark 1:15 And saying "has been filled the time and has neared the Kingdom of the God.
Be ye reforming/repenting!/metanoeite <3340> (5720)! and be ye believing! in the Gospel".

I don't think you'll find that word used exactly. I use it because it is a good word in English. You'll find in the Tanakh that we are told that when we are somewhere that sacrifices are not possible, such as right now, we turn back to HaShem and He will remember our sin no more. If it was good enough for King Solomon to say, it is good enough for me.

I just found another greek word that is equivalent to the hebrew word #05162:

Repent

The dominant Hebrew word rendered 'repent' is na&#770;cham (H5162).
The word literally means 'to sigh'[1] and can therefore be used to express a range of feelings in the area of regret or sorrow. It is rendered comfort(65), repent(39).

There is a Greek word that is directly equivalent to na&#770;cham, it is metamellomai(G3338). It occurs on six occasions in the New Testament.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G3338 matches the Greek &#956;&#949;&#964;&#945;&#956;&#8051;&#955;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953; (metamelomai), which occurs 8 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance

Young) Hebrews 7:21 and he with an oath through Him Who is saying unto him, 'The Lord sware, and will not repent/metamelhqhsetai <3338> (5700),
Thou [art] a priest--to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;'

3338. metamellomai met-am-el'-lom-ahee from 3326 and the middle voice of 3199; to care afterwards, i.e. regret:--repent (self).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Enkil
To repent is to turn away from sin and come to God. It is not necessarily a taking of a list of each individual sin and saying, "Okay, I repent of that one. I repent of this one." It is a new nature that utterly despises sin, turns away from it, asks forgiveness, and seeks after God. But failing in some way, perhaps in a way that the person could not see, does not mean that this person is damned.

The work is complete on the cross, and the salvation is assured for all those who believe in their heart that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

This is your opinion.

Well, ya know what they say about opinions.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

JPS1917 OT) Job 32:2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram;
against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
17 I also will answer my part, I also will declare mine opinion.

 

[Enkil]

Your search is faulty. There is more than one method to gain forgiveness in the Tanakh. Your focusing on one and calling it a day.

You are underestimating it's importance. Faith is ultimately what saves a man, but faith leads to obedience. God called it Holy to make a sin offering, to have the High Priest confess the sins of the people and impute them on something else, to shed blood or offer something up in loss, and to command these things even with the threat of judgment if they did not do them. If you are not under Christ, you are surely under the Law, and all the penalties implied therein by not obeying them. This was no small matter to God.

This is your opinion of what you are reading. I disagree.

Actually, it wasn't. That was from the KJV. The version you used is somewhat differently worded, but still the same. All I did was cut the parts out and give them numbers. IOW, I was just quoting the scripture in the form of a list.

That's about Israel not the messiah. Please show me, using the text, how you know it is the messiah.

Israel did not suffer as a lamb as a sin offering. The soul of Israel was never offered up as a sin offering. And, as far as I know, a nation does not have a corporate soul. It reads, "he" would suffer for "us." If "he" is Israel, who is "us?" Will Israel take on the sins of someone else? Will the suffering of Israel as a nation somehow bring salvation on an individual level to each and every individual "us?" But "us" and "he" are the same thing, according to you. Did this happen in 70ad, when the Jews, who were in a state of utter apostasy with even an ineligible High Priest in the temple, suffered horribly and were defeated by the Romans?

Whatever the case, it refutes your earlier point. So instead of denying that Jesus could take on the sins of the world, you imputed it to the entirety of Israel.

What am I supposed to recall again? That the spirit of HaShem, the force that HaShem uses on Earth not a separate person, is with the prophets? Yes, I know that. You may believe you are filled with whatever you would like.

Wel, I guess I have whatever these guys have, I guess :-l

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Num 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

Exo 31:1-3 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, (2) See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: (3) And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

1Sa 10:10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

This next one you should write your Rabbi about, and have him send a letter to God complaining of the Trinity.

Isa 48:12-16 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. (13) Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. (14) All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. (15) I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. (16) Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

 

[LoAmmi]

This next one you should write your Rabbi about, and have him send a letter to God complaining of the Trinity.

I have not cited the authority of a rabbi. I have not copy and pasted any arguments from rabbis. I have admitted that I have to research things in order to understand them. I do not possess the magnificent space brain necessary to simply know information.

I will not be speaking with you anymore. This statement angered me greatly and I refuse to speak with people on this forum who appear to want me to be angry.

 

[smaneck]

I don't think you'll find that word used exactly. I use it because it is a good word in English.

I believe it is shuwb which means to turn or return. The word in Arabic in Tauwab. There is a story about the Muslim mystic poetess Rabi'a who came upon another Muslim Hasan al-Basra weeping and wailing over his sins and saying what a wretched man he was. Rabi'a said, "You are right about this, because had you truly repented and turned towards God you would see only God and not notice your own sinfulness."

I think she had a point.