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what messianic prophecies where not fulfilled by jesus?
- Thread starter dfw69
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E
Enkil
Guest
I meant no such insult! It was merely a joke, not meant with any malice or anything else in mind. But what is far more important than clearing the misunderstanding, is you examining the scripture and realizing that Christ is the Messiah, and that there is no logical defense of the scriptures that involves denying Christ from them. You don't have to like me. You just have to realize that.
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I have studied. There are very logical defenses. You may have to realize something yourself; your solution is not the only one.
You may well be correct and I may be correct.
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It has been 2000 years and that debate has never been resolved between Jews and Christians. I doubt we're going to resolve it on this thread.
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E
Enkil
Guest
Who cares about collective resolution? It only matters what you decide, alone.
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My decision has been made for a long time. I spent a while investigating the claims. I found them lacking. There is nothing you can post that I have not seen before.
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Where is it called a sin offering in the text? Keep in mind that I would be asking for the specific Hebrew word, which I am pretty sure is not there.
As to the "he" thing, Israel is referred to collectively as a he in multiple places. To give you an example:
Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
This is obviously speaking about corporate Israel and him.
The whole chapter (and forth servant song in general) occurs in the messianic age. It is about the time when Israel is redeemed. If you follow the text, the kings of the world are speaking at the beginning. They are now recognizing the wrongs they committed against Israel and cannot believe that Israel was right after all this time. They are healed, as in brought to HaShem, through Israel's suffering and eventual redemption.
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If I PMed you a link to a write up done by someone I have a great deal of respect for and who goes through the thing bit by bit, would you be willing to look at it? I would not be allowed to share it openly.
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E
Enkil
Guest
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The word here translated "sin offering":
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
'asham TWOT - 180b
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
aw-shawm' Noun Masculine
Definition
guilt, offense, guiltiness
offense, trespass, fault
guilt, guiltiness
compensation (for offense)
trespass offering, guilt offering
King James Word Usage - Total: 46
trespass offering 34, trespass 8, offering for sin 1, sin 2, guiltiness 1
'asham - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version
Same word used throughout here:
Leviticus 5:6-7; Leviticus 5:15-16; Leviticus 5:18-19; Leviticus 6:6; Leviticus 7:1-2; Leviticus 7:7; Leviticus 7:37; Leviticus 14:12-14; Leviticus 14:21; Leviticus 14:24-25; Leviticus 19:21-22 Ezekiel 42:13; Ezekiel 44:29; Ezekiel 46:20
Here is the Complete Jewish Bible translation:
Isaiah 53:10
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
10 yet it pleased Adonai to crush him with illness,
to see if he would present himself as a guilt offering.
If he does, he will see his offspring;
and he will prolong his days;
and at his hand Adonai’s desire
will be accomplished.
And Young's Literal Translation:
Isaiah 53:10
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
10 And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed -- he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
And the KJV
Isaiah 53:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
And here is the entire chapter again, highlighting the same sense of "bearing" guilt, this time in the Complete Jewish Bible:
Isaiah 53
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
53 Who believes our report?
To whom is the arm of Adonai revealed?
2 For before him he grew up like a young plant,
like a root out of dry ground.
He was not well-formed or especially handsome;
we saw him, but his appearance did not attract us.
3 People despised and avoided him,
a man of pains, well acquainted with illness.
Like someone from whom people turn their faces,
he was despised; we did not value him.
4 In fact, it was our diseases he bore,
our pains from which he suffered;
yet we regarded him as punished,
stricken and afflicted by God.
5 But he was wounded because of our crimes,
crushed because of our sins;
the disciplining that makes us whole fell on him,
and by his bruises* we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, went astray;
we turned, each one, to his own way;
yet Adonai laid on him
the guilt of all of us.
7 Though mistreated, he was submissive —
he did not open his mouth.
Like a lamb led to be slaughtered,
like a sheep silent before its shearers,
he did not open his mouth.
8 After forcible arrest and sentencing,
he was taken away;
and none of his generation protested
his being cut off from the land of the living
for the crimes of my people,
who deserved the punishment themselves.
9 He was given a grave among the wicked;
in his death he was with a rich man.
Although he had done no violence
and had said nothing deceptive,
10 yet it pleased Adonai to crush him with illness,
to see if he would present himself as a guilt offering.
If he does, he will see his offspring;
and he will prolong his days;
and at his hand Adonai’s desire
will be accomplished.
11 After this ordeal, he will see satisfaction.
“By his knowing [pain and sacrifice],
my righteous servant makes many righteous;
it is for their sins that he suffers.
12 Therefore I will assign him a share with the great,
he will divide the spoil with the mighty,
for having exposed himself to death
and being counted among the sinners,
while actually bearing the sin of many
and interceding for the offenders.”
The difference between this sentence from Hosea, and these sentences from Isaiah:
Isa 53:5-6 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Is that in the first one, it is clear the subject is Israel, and it is clear he is being discussed. In the latter sentences, they are talking about one receiving wounds, and the other "us" being healed by them. So, how then does Israel, corporately, receive wounds, and Israel, individually among the people, receive the healing?
It is illogical, therefore.
Now that you mention it, let's look one page back and see what it says.
Isa 52:13-15 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. (14) As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: (15) So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
So before going into a discussion on how Israel will treat the Messiah, the scripture teaches that the kings of the nations "shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider." IOW, the Gentiles, who never had the prophecies of the Old Testament to accept any such thing, shall hear the Gospel, and consider it. This then goes into the next chapter, which talks of the Messiah being rejected of men. IOW, rejected by His own people, yet He carries their sins upon Himself, by which He makes many righteous, and shall see His offspring.
This is the Gospel message, pure and simple, and is an accurate prediction of what in fact happened.
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What is your clue that the servant is the messiah in the text?
Would you allow me to PM the link to you? It is a considerably better write-up on Isaiah 53 than I could ever hope to muster.
Would you allow me to PM the link to you? It is a considerably better write-up on Isaiah 53 than I could ever hope to muster.
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Israel is not the one speaking this part. It is still the kings of the nations speaking. "We" is the kings. "He' is Israel. It is also not wounded for our transgressions, it should be wounded FROM or BECAUSE OF our transgressions. Israel in exile has suffered under the kings of the world. It is their crimes that caused the sufferings. The pogroms, the Holocaust.
Isiah states earlier that Israel received a double portion of our punishment for our sins. Why is this? Israel is to be a nation of priests and priests bear the iniquity of the sanctuary, so Israel must bear the iniquity of the world. The world suffers less because Israel suffers more.
It could also be that the Jewish people would be raised high. How many years have Jews been seen as punished by HaShem for Jesus? How long has Israel carried that? Now, if it were revealed tomorrow that Israel was right all along, would the Christians not be astonished? The Muslims too?
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I would also like to remind everybody that chapters and verses were later inventions. Much later inventions by Christians who sought a way to index the Bible. It was a great idea, and Jews adopted it quickly. However, since they weren't in the text, there is no gap between Isaiah 52 or 53 or 54. To cut out 53 and stand it alone goes against the original text.
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E
Enkil
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Because corporate Israel cannot save corporate Israel. Only one man can, who can bear their burdens, and rule over them as the Mighty God, and as the spiritual Head of Israel. The entire narrative of Isaiah speaks to this truth, and only God can ever be the Savior:
Isa 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isa 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
If corporate Israel is the servant, then corporate Israel is the Mighty God, the root of Jesse, and the redeemer, which is wounded for its own transgressions, and bears the iniquity of its own sins, which at the same time it did not commit.
The scripture teaches instead that the redeemer of Isaiah 53 is God Himself, the child to be given who is "God with Us," Immanuel.
Do not read this as an insult. I would prefer that you master the subject yourself. Look into their words, and see if they speak the truth. And when you become a master of it and can explain it yourself, then come back to me and speak. Assuming, of course, that there isn't an economic collapse and world wide disaster that doesn't impede me from responding before that time.
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And so He is. Our Messiah is not our savior. Our Messiah does not come to die for our sins. That is a concept foreign to Judaism and, as you can see in the New Testament, always has been.
5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
Note the past tense of the verse. It is speaking about Hezekiah, not the messiah. The child was already born as it is in past tense in the Hebrew. Also, it is stating that HaShem called him the prince of peace.
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I do not have as much time as others to craft these arguments. I can respond, but please understand I may need to backtrack and clarify if I get things wrong. I fire from the hip sometimes and am not remembering what is said clearly.
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razeontherock
Well-Known Member
Improperly stated. The clues (plural) include, but in no way are limited to:
1) the Holy Ghost testifying of Christ (the most important one)
2) Christ speaking of it
3) the Apostles speaking of it
4) Decidedly after that, it making sense in the text itself. And not merely one chapter, or two, or 3, but THE WHOLE collection of 66 books. And those who adhere to all the various incarnations of the deuterocanon don't report there being anything to mitigate it, either.
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So, not in the text clearly. That's fine. I understand perfectly tradition/personal experience allowing one to believe something. Thank you for not claiming it is in the text clearly.
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razeontherock
Well-Known Member
I take your word for it that the concept is foreign to Judaism, but why do you say "as you can see from the NT, always has been?"
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None of the disciples, Jewish leaders, or anybody except Jesus ever commented on the messiah coming to die for sins (unless I'm missing someone). Were it a common element, it would have been mentioned I imagine.
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