bratty children misbehaving, no discipline

[dies-l]

That is a weak argument. There is no evidence saying that children who are spanked "act out" more when they are away from their parents than those who are not spanked.

I can only speak for my two. And time after time after time, I get compliments on how well-behaved and respectful they are. Sure my two are FAR from perfect, but they know who the parent/adult is.

I think you misunderstood his argument. Spanking may cause compliance, but it doesn't instill character.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

If find that people who tend to claim even a gentle spanking is child abuse usually themselves went through a severe form of pusnihsment and thus think its any form of puninishment is horrible beyond repute!

Fact is I am all for spanking, but only in extreme cases. Such as if had my child throw the cat into a wood chipper or something. lol.

 

[TamaraLynne]

Depends on the jurisdiction, really. Some jurisdictions would consider "hitting" to be insufficient information to decide whether abuse had occurred. Some would consider spanking by itself to be abuse. I don't completely agree with the latter.

But, if we're going to throw up irrelevant hypotheticals, try spanking an adult that you don't like and see whether you are charged with assault and battery an less than you would if you had punched them.



Huh?!?!?!? Spanking is not necessarily abuse. It is, by definition, a form of hitting.

Adults are spanked all the time..its called speeding tickets,fines,jail time, prison,
I got spanked just a few times as a child but I think that society has a very big responsibility in backing up the parents and letting the child know that said behavior is not tolerated. Usually one or two soft spankings in a life time does the trick...

But in todays society parents don't have others backing them up...quite the opposite..

I don't agree with abuse of any sort....but soft spankings and a stern voice and then a loving hug...is just fine.

 

[jpcedotal]

I think you misunderstood his argument. Spanking may cause compliance, but it doesn't instill character.

Neither do time-outs, grounding, and any other form of discipline.

That is not the purpose of spanking, nor should it be. Again, people who do not spank think that those of us who do, ONLY spank and spank for every little incident. That is the hang-up and a total falsehood.

I use spanking for lying, stealing, cheating, serious rule violations (like disappearing in stores) and disrespecting other children and non-stranger adults. I spank with the desire to instill that these things are wrong period, first and foremost.. Of course I also explain why it is wrong and make sure the child knows. My child KNOWS that if he/she does these things, they will get a spanking, but they also know why these things are wrong. When they were very young, I am focus on correct behavior (don't do it) only. As they have gotten older I put more focus on the reasons behind correct behavior and the disappointment for their wrong actions that they cause to the people around them who love them.

I spank not to instill fear (another lie non-spankers tell or that they sincerely do not understand), but to instill the seriousness of the mistake.

 

[jpcedotal]

Fact is I am all for spanking, but only in extreme cases. Such as if had my child throw the cat into a wood chipper or something. lol.

don't laugh..I had to save our cat from the dryer because he had "accidentally" gotten wet from a water hose.

(I didn't spank them for it btw)

 

[dies-l]

Neither do time-outs, grounding,

I admit I have used both of these with my kids, but I treat them not much that differently than you talk about spanking: as a last resort for particularly egregious or pervasive misbehavior. But, even then, I try to do them in a way that allows them to be a character-building opportunity. Typically, during time out they are asked to reflect on (a) what they did, (b) why it was wrong, and (c) what they can do next time to get the desired result in a morally acceptable way. "Grounding" is usually limited to a specific privilege or set of privileges, usually electronics (TV, video games, etc). The point is to remove them from something they enjoy, but also something that has a corrupting influence on them if overused. I have found that it teaches them both consequences for their choices and how to enjoy themselves in more healthy and productive ways. I have only ever grounded in the more typical sense once, and that was when my daughter was developing a hitting problem, so she was grounded for a week from going to the house of a boy she had hit, so that she might learn that mistreating people has a negative impact on relationships.

Granted, my kids are a little bit of a special case, because they were horribly abused before we adopted them. Any form of corporal punishment that we could dish out would pale in comparison to the abuse they endured and would very likely cause them to relive terrifying memories. But, I am pretty sure that, even if not for our children's history (and in the case of our youngest who was removed in very early infancy), corporal punishment is not something I would use. I just don't think it accomplishes as much as other types of consequences would.

and any other form of discipline.

Be careful not to confuse punishment and discipline. Discipline is the act of teaching proper morals, ethics, and behavior. It's main goal should be to build character. Punishment is but one tool used in discipline and one that I think should be used sparingly.

That is not the purpose of spanking, nor should it be. Again, people who do not spank think that those of us who do, ONLY spank and spank for every little incident. That is the hang-up and a total falsehood.

Some people who spank do use it excessively. Some don't. I am sure we have all seen the angry mother or father in supermarket who picks their kid up and gives them a swat on the behind for every minor indiscretion. I am not going to pretend that these are the norm, but neither am I going to deny that they exist.

I use spanking for lying, stealing, cheating, serious rule violations (like disappearing in stores) and disrespecting other children and non-stranger adults. I spank with the desire to instill that these things are wrong period, first and foremost.. Of course I also explain why it is wrong and make sure the child knows. My child KNOWS that if he/she does these things, they will get a spanking, but they also know why these things are wrong. When they were very young, I am focus on correct behavior (don't do it) only. As they have gotten older I put more focus on the reasons behind correct behavior and the disappointment for their wrong actions that they cause to the people around them who love them.

I spank not to instill fear (another lie non-spankers tell or that they sincerely do not understand), but to instill the seriousness of the mistake.

This is all sounds very one-sided to me: YOU spank, and then YOU explain why their behavior was wrong. Wouldn't it be better to give them an opportunity to think out for themselves (with the guidance of a loving parent, of course) why their behavior was wrong. I have found that conversations tend to be internalized better than lectures. And, isn't that what we really want: to have our children internalize and come to sincerely believe that healthy choices are better than unhealthy choices?

 

[jpcedotal]

This is all sounds very one-sided to me: YOU spank, and then YOU explain why their behavior was wrong. Wouldn't it be better to give them an opportunity to think out for themselves (with the guidance of a loving parent, of course) why their behavior was wrong. I have found that conversations tend to be internalized better than lectures. And, isn't that what we really want: to have our children internalize and come to sincerely believe that healthy choices are better than unhealthy choices?

This depends on the child's age. I am not going to go into some long drawn-out conversation with a two year old about biting nor am I going to put him in time-out and tell him to think about what he has done.. I am going to spank every single time he bites. As the child gets older, then discussing the punishment becomes the more important than the punishment, but the punish is in itself is still required. There is a seriousness of certain bad behavior that MUST be stressed with immediate repercussions and for me, knowing my kids better than anyone else, spankings fill this role the best in these situations.

With kids who have been abused and now you must deal with this and still teach right and wrong, that is a special situation to be sure and spanking may not be the best, not because spanking itself is wrong, but because it will remind them of past abuses.

Hey, every kid and their past is different, but a disrespectful young child screaming in Wal-Mart because they are not getting their way is a direct result of not putting a hand or belt on that butt...period.

 

[dies-l]

This depends on the child's age. I am not going to go into some long drawn-out conversation with a two year old about biting nor am I going to put him in time-out and tell him to think about what he has done.. I am going to spank every single time he bites. As the child gets older, then discussing the punishment becomes the more important than the punishment, but the punish is in itself is still required. There is a seriousness of certain bad behavior that MUST be stressed with immediate repercussions and for me, knowing my kids better than anyone else, spankings fill this role the best in these situations.

With kids who have been abused and now you must deal with this and still teach right and wrong, that is a special situation to be sure and spanking may not be the best, not because spanking itself is wrong, but because it will remind them of past abuses.

Hey, every kid and their past is different, but a disrespectful young child screaming in Wal-Mart because they are not getting their way is a direct result of not putting a hand or belt on that butt...period.

I'm confused by your post here. First, you say every child is different, then you seem to imply that not spanking will generally lead to the child becoming a screaming brat. My experience is that the best way to teach a child not to throw a tantrum when they don't get their way is to make sure that they never get their way when they their a tantrum. Too many parents seem to fall into the "if I give you what you want will you please just stop screaming?" trap. I try to offer my kids a reward for accepting no as an answer every once in a while, but I make sure that they understand that if they complain, there will never be a reward. They don't complain much anymore when I say no.

 

[Fenny the Fox]

My experience is that the best way to teach a child not to throw a tantrum when they don't get their way is to make sure that they never get their way when they their a tantrum. Too many parents seem to fall into the "if I give you what you want will you please just stop screaming?" trap.

This is very true. And the simplest solution as well.

I think me and my older brother (and possibly my younger sister) each may have tried that one time. And our folks just took us outside and let us throw it. We didn't get what we wanted, we had to leave the store even, we stopped. Never did it again, because it did no good. And, for the most part, that works far better than an old fashioned spankin' for tantrums.

[As for the positive reinforcement for not throwing the tantrum over you saying "no"...eh. I am of mixed opinions on that. Reinforcement should be for doing "good", not for not doing "bad". And I feel there is a difference. But to each his own - if it works for you then it works for you, so keep doing it. But that's another argument altogether.]

As for jcpdotal, I think it was a case of "if they are doing that in public [frequently, perhaps?], they likely needed a spanking every now and then". Not that it necessarily means they will turn out that way if they don't get them - as every child is different, some don't really need them at all. But I may be reading his intent incorrectly...

 

[keith99]

I'm confused by your post here. First, you say every child is different, then you seem to imply that not spanking will generally lead to the child becoming a screaming brat. My experience is that the best way to teach a child not to throw a tantrum when they don't get their way is to make sure that they never get their way when they their a tantrum. Too many parents seem to fall into the "if I give you what you want will you please just stop screaming?" trap. I try to offer my kids a reward for accepting no as an answer every once in a while, but I make sure that they understand that if they complain, there will never be a reward. They don't complain much anymore when I say no.

I wonder how many parents fall innocently into the trap of giving shildren what they want to stop the screaming.

A 2 month old has little else they can use to communicate, and for quite a bit after that very little they can do to say 'help, somethings wrong'.

Giving the child what they want early makes sense, because usually what they want is what they need. But they slowly change into someone able to cummunicate their needs and wants, and they learn to want. I think often the change is gradual enough that the parents have allowd a pattern to be set before they are even aware of it.

Breaking a pattern is much harder than setting the right pattern. After all if a child is told they will not get their way the first time they throw a tantrum they have no reason to think it will succede. If tehy already have gotten their way for a year they have very good reason to think it will work. (And if the parent says no and eventually gives in things get even worse).

At least that is my thought based on a lot of youth work years ago. I generally worked with 12 year olds and up, but I saw a lot of behaviour problems that clearly were a pattern. I was lucky in that I was in a camp setting where a lot of the pattern was already broken (different people different environment) and if I started out right thgins went well. A single affirmation meant problems.

 

[keith99]

I admit I have used both of these with my kids, but I treat them not much that differently than you talk about spanking: as a last resort for particularly egregious or pervasive misbehavior. But, even then, I try to do them in a way that allows them to be a character-building opportunity. Typically, during time out they are asked to reflect on (a) what they did, (b) why it was wrong, and (c) what they can do next time to get the desired result in a morally acceptable way. "Grounding" is usually limited to a specific privilege or set of privileges, usually electronics (TV, video games, etc). The point is to remove them from something they enjoy, but also something that has a corrupting influence on them if overused. I have found that it teaches them both consequences for their choices and how to enjoy themselves in more healthy and productive ways. I have only ever grounded in the more typical sense once, and that was when my daughter was developing a hitting problem, so she was grounded for a week from going to the house of a boy she had hit, so that she might learn that mistreating people has a negative impact on relationships.

Granted, my kids are a little bit of a special case, because they were horribly abused before we adopted them. Any form of corporal punishment that we could dish out would pale in comparison to the abuse they endured and would very likely cause them to relive terrifying memories. But, I am pretty sure that, even if not for our children's history (and in the case of our youngest who was removed in very early infancy), corporal punishment is not something I would use. I just don't think it accomplishes as much as other types of consequences would.



Be careful not to confuse punishment and discipline. Discipline is the act of teaching proper morals, ethics, and behavior. It's main goal should be to build character. Punishment is but one tool used in discipline and one that I think should be used sparingly.



Some people who spank do use it excessively. Some don't. I am sure we have all seen the angry mother or father in supermarket who picks their kid up and gives them a swat on the behind for every minor indiscretion. I am not going to pretend that these are the norm, but neither am I going to deny that they exist.



This is all sounds very one-sided to me: YOU spank, and then YOU explain why their behavior was wrong. Wouldn't it be better to give them an opportunity to think out for themselves (with the guidance of a loving parent, of course) why their behavior was wrong. I have found that conversations tend to be internalized better than lectures. And, isn't that what we really want: to have our children internalize and come to sincerely believe that healthy choices are better than unhealthy choices?

I very much like yuor method of letting the punishment fit the crime. Heck, in the case of yuor girl with the hitting problem with just a few careful words along the way (if needed) the 'punishment' could almost come off as quite teh opposite. Instead an attemot to show her what she might lose forever. (Hit the boy often enough and she might not be welcome at his house).

I have a feeling that dealing with abused kids even an overly strong verbal display could have problems. Of course it would be case by case, but I'm sure that in a pretty significant percentage the yelling is the prelude to the hitting.

 

[dies-l]

I have a feeling that dealing with abused kids even an overly strong verbal display could have problems. Of course it would be case by case, but I'm sure that in a pretty significant percentage the yelling is the prelude to the hitting.

This is something that my wife and I are having to adapt to. I was raised in a home where yelling (and even cussing) was commonplace, but there was no real abuse. I find that when I am stressed, I tend to revert to what I saw growing up (i.e., yelling and cussing). But, I have also noticed that my kids' behavior markedly improves when I try my best to abstain from raising my voice, being nitpicky about behavior, or using excessively stern language in correcting my kids. My wife isn't so much a yeller, but she was raised in an overachieving household, where expectations were (perhaps unreasonably) high and not meeting expectations was a source of stern rebuke. So learning to keep our expectations reasonable and our corrections gentle has been a little bit of a challenge.

 

[AdvocatusDiaboli]

My daughter who is now almost 14 had to deal with both sides of the coin dealing with two parent homes and a completely different way of life and rules etc in my home vs her Fathers.

I have always had positive compliments of my daughters behaviors.

In my house, from day 1 she was treated with respect and understanding. She is allowed to constructively express any emotion even if it is towards me in a negative way.

I answer any questions she has for me (regardless of subject from rated g to 18+), and when it comes to the yes an no and what is and is not acceptable we discuss it. She will express her emotions and thoughts on the matter and I fully explain why my answer is the way it is. Always 2 way respect and open communication.

Even when she was 2-3 years old, while a lot of what I explained went over her head, she would understand basic words and perhaps pick up on the emotions of my voice.

Her father did the spankings, the groundings, the "because I said so" and "you will listen and respect me because I am your father".

When she hit her preteens and early teens (11-13) she rebelled (not calling or coming home on time, not doing chores, yelling, screaming, fits of tears etc) as she started to no longer fear him. Her rebellion was only towards him until he did some major changes in how he ran his house.

Bottom line, I would choose my daughters respect because she loves me and gets respect from me so that respect is returned as opposed to respect from fear. A fear that in time in almost everyone will one day vanish and then the parent has no hold or influence in that childs life.

 

[purpledolphin8402]

I honestly don't think this is a real post, just a post to try and get people hyped up. My problem is with the main story of the OP:

Then, this kid, about 1 or 2 years old, started putting his dirty hands all over our stuff on the check out counter, the stuff we were buying. he touched my back, now when they start touching you it gets bad. But what can you say without making yourself look like the bad guy? he drooled and got the book we were buying dirty...

My 4 year old can't even look over the check out counter without standing on his tip toes and he's tall for his age. How did the 1 or 2 year old toddler not only put his hands all over everything, but was able to drool on a book as well? Even if they were at a self check out lane without the conveyor belt, it would be too tall for a toddler that young to reach and it wouldn't be difficult to block him since all you would have to do is stand there. Maybe if he were seated in a cart, that would make sense, but then he wouldn't have been able to touch her back since the whole back of the cart would be in between them. Something's just not adding up...

 

[keith99]

This is something that my wife and I are having to adapt to. I was raised in a home where yelling (and even cussing) was commonplace, but there was no real abuse. I find that when I am stressed, I tend to revert to what I saw growing up (i.e., yelling and cussing). But, I have also noticed that my kids' behavior markedly improves when I try my best to abstain from raising my voice, being nitpicky about behavior, or using excessively stern language in correcting my kids. My wife isn't so much a yeller, but she was raised in an overachieving household, where expectations were (perhaps unreasonably) high and not meeting expectations was a source of stern rebuke. So learning to keep our expectations reasonable and our corrections gentle has been a little bit of a challenge.

Hopefully within a couple of years your efforts will pay off in a way many might not think of. Sooner or later one of the kids will mess up big time, enough that you slip, at least a little.

The payoff? That the kid may see thsi as an indication of something serious since it was enough to upset someone who cares about them. Instead of thinking of it as another unreasonable upset adult.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I will not be "careful" with the word hit. The words are the same to me. You hit your children and choose to use the word spank because you think it's okay to hit small people who belong to you as long as you apply it some specific "controlled" way. I don't want my children to hit, so I don't hit them.

I'm really glad to see others calling spanking what it is in this thread. It IS hitting, and if someone did it to me now without my consent it'd be sexual assault. I cannot fathom how anyone can reconcile something that is sexual assault to an adult being okay if done to a child.

And these attitudes above are why I said you should be careful using that word.

My children don't hit, either. So where does that argument take you?

As for sexual assault, I find it laughable that you would compare sexual assault to spanking. I think you may need to take a good look at what sexual assault is and what the motive is behind it, and then take a good look at spanking and what the motive is behind that. It's fine and dandy if you don't wish to spank your children, and I respect that, and you won't find me berating your choice. So please, stop berating mine and trying to compare me to a sex offender.

 

[keith99]

My daughter who is now almost 14 had to deal with both sides of the coin dealing with two parent homes and a completely different way of life and rules etc in my home vs her Fathers.

I have always had positive compliments of my daughters behaviors.

In my house, from day 1 she was treated with respect and understanding. She is allowed to constructively express any emotion even if it is towards me in a negative way.

I answer any questions she has for me (regardless of subject from rated g to 18+), and when it comes to the yes an no and what is and is not acceptable we discuss it. She will express her emotions and thoughts on the matter and I fully explain why my answer is the way it is. Always 2 way respect and open communication.

Even when she was 2-3 years old, while a lot of what I explained went over her head, she would understand basic words and perhaps pick up on the emotions of my voice.

Her father did the spankings, the groundings, the "because I said so" and "you will listen and respect me because I am your father".

When she hit her preteens and early teens (11-13) she rebelled (not calling or coming home on time, not doing chores, yelling, screaming, fits of tears etc) as she started to no longer fear him. Her rebellion was only towards him until he did some major changes in how he ran his house.

Bottom line, I would choose my daughters respect because she loves me and gets respect from me so that respect is returned as opposed to respect from fear. A fear that in time in almost everyone will one day vanish and then the parent has no hold or influence in that childs life.

It seems to me that thsoe who use the words "Because I say so" tend to do it a lot and to have no power behind the words. And anger actually blunts the power.

I'm sure that growing up there were times my parents expressed the idea that ther was a situation where I needed give in and do it now. But it always came across more as 'Trust me' than 'Obey me'. Well maybe not more, but at least always nearly equally or better.

Funny thing there, if mom and dad are usually right, or at the least part right kids are more apt to consider them a real authority. A source of correct information. At times that means warning a child but allowing them to make mistakes. Just keeping it to teh ones they will recover from.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Wanted to add too that I firmly agree in explaining the purpose of the discipline or punishment every time. Otherwise a child really learns nothing.

Spanking is a last resort for us, and it's for things that usually involve endangerment. Otherwise we utilize time outs quite a bit. Those are very effective in our house for the every day misbehaving fits. Our boys HATE standing in the corner. But we always ask them afterward "why did you put you there?" and then they explain in their words why.

 

[purpledolphin8402]

Wanted to add too that I firmly agree in explaining the purpose of the discipline or punishment every time. Otherwise a child really learns nothing.

Spanking is a last resort for us, and it's for things that usually involve endangerment. Otherwise we utilize time outs quite a bit. Those are very effective in our house for the every day misbehaving fits. Our boys HATE standing in the corner. But we always ask them afterward "why did you put you there?" and then they explain in their words why.

Spanking is the exact same way for us, it's always a last resort and usually for things that are dangerous. The first time I spanked my oldest was when he was two. He had climbed into the playpen with his 3-month-old brother while I was in the restroom and began jumping on his stomach. My sons hate time out too. I'm usually the only one implementing it though. All my husband has to do is look at them and say their names and they listen.

I laughed at the poster who said that all parents think their children are perfect. I know my children aren't perfect, not by a long shot. There are days when they make me want to pull out my hair, but they're not bad kids. For as loud and wild as they can be some days, they are two of the sweetest boys out there. They say please and thank you, they love to cuddle and give hugs and kisses, my oldest always says to me, "Mommy, you are my best friend and I love you more than superman ice cream," and the most annoying thing they do at the store is say hi to EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE. If you are within their eyesight, they will say hi to you LOL. The sweetest thing they do though is sing "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star," to their baby sisters and they always kiss and hug my stomach and say, "Love you babies!"

 

[dies-l]

Hopefully within a couple of years your efforts will pay off in a way many might not think of. Sooner or later one of the kids will mess up big time, enough that you slip, at least a little.

The payoff? That the kid may see thsi as an indication of something serious since it was enough to upset someone who cares about them. Instead of thinking of it as another unreasonable upset adult.

Oh, we have already slipped plenty. :o