bratty children misbehaving, no discipline

[dies-l]

I sorta understand the whole thought process of "well, the other family didn't do what we were doing" but at the same time, why would you expect them to? Just because you feel it's how your child should act doesn't mean that's how they feel their child should act. It's not really fair to expect another family to do what you're doing just because you're doing it. You can certainly request it, but I don't really think you have the right to be upset about it if they don't follow your lead.

I can say that typically when I see a parent that is trying to provide guidance to their children to learn something that is an okay thing for kids to learn, I will try to discourage my kids from sending a contrary message, even if that is not a lesson that I would necessarily teach my own children at that point in time.

However, I would also admit that getting irritated at the other parent for not doing so falls in the category of things that are my problem -- not theirs. And, as I have said, there are plenty of issues that my kids need help sorting through that other parents (at least those who do't know my kids well) couldn't possibly understand, I should be more tolerant of other parents who parent their kids differently than I parent my own.

 

[keith99]

The idea of caring what others think about ones parenting came up a bit in this thread.

I'd just like to point out that at least for me how much I care about how someone else thinks of my actions or methods depends a lot on just who it is.

There are some on this thread where it matters a great deal to me what they think of my opinions because their past posts show they are reasonable people who make reasoned posts. If they say I'm being a fool it is importnat to me and a sign I need to step back and reexamine my position (and in this context also be sure I have been communicating clearly).

There are others whose opinioons matter little to me as they have done the very opposite.

I'm also thinking there is something for parents to consider here. I think I'm more conscious of this than most people, but I think everyone does this to some extent. As a parent one needs to consider just how their children view them. Has the parent established that what they say is worth caring abotu because it is reasonable and in the parent child situation becaseu they care about the child. Or are they just listened to becaseu of their power?

 

[quatona]

Thanks for the feedback.

Well, I sense that your approach is driven by the question "What´s best for the child", and that gives us much common ground for a fruitful conversation even though we might differ in some aspects.

As to your recent post: Although it - formally - appears to be a response to me, I am not sure where and when it is really directed at me and the post of mine you wrote it in response to. Thus I will not address everything in detail. If you would like to see a response from to certain thoughts, just let me know, and I will be happy to comment.

I would tend to say that gentle feedback from a trusted friend or co-caregiver can be very helpful. A judgmental glare from the people behind me in line at Wal-Mart is not.

I´m not sure I agree fully. Of course, a judgemental glare like the one presented (which appears to be driven by the person´s desire for convenience) is not a helpful parenting advice.
Then again, sometimes it just takes a short episode for a bystander to tell the entire drama of a family. I.e. the guy behind me in the line at Wal-Mart may be spot on in his analysis and able to lay his finger on the underlying problem. His comment might be very helpful.

But, let me share a little of my own situation: My two older children have come from a place of intense pain and betrayed trust that has nothing to do with their mother and me. However, this is not to say that we have not made our share of parenting mistakes and passed along hurt and betrayal of our own. When and how they release that pain is not always predictable, systematic, and appropriate (at least not by grown up standards). I believe that there is a place for saying no to them when they want something that is not good for them or that we cannot afford at the moment. But, I also acknowledge that this can be the trigger that lets loose a flood of hurt feelings. I do not want to be the type of parent that sends the message "your feelings are not valid right now because they are embarrassing me; can you please hold them in until they will not be such an inconvenience?" or worse yet "your feelings are not valid at all; please suppress them." But, this is what we often do when we focus our parenting energies on getting a tantruming child to just "behave".

Just for clarification (in case it hasn´t been clear from my posts so far: I am not advocating anything that emphasizes immediate behaviour correction or "disciplining". The very opposite is the case.

At the same time, it really can be problematic for the flood of emotions to come out in the Wal-Mart checkout line (or at McDonalds or wherever else). Rather than suppressing a tantrum once it has started, I can understand a parent choosing not to do something at that moment that will inevitably pull the trigger on the child's emotional flood. So, we choose the pick our battles; we deliberately overlook minor misbehavior, sometimes to the chagrin of other customers. And, sometimes, despite what those others might think, there is a well thought-out reason for this that is not simply "bad parenting" or "no discipline".

Yes, I do understand that and I agree. Then again, there are certain reactions of parents that can clearly be identified as the problem rather than a good idea of a solution. First of all: Inconsequence. A "yes" can have its place, so can a "no". But there are extremely few - if any - occasions "no...No...NO!...yes" is a good idea.

I have noticed on this thread that there is a lot of allusion to how "bad" things have gotten or how much better they used to be. Some of that is poor recollection of times past, but I think that there is some validity to that as well. But, I don't necessarily point the finger at bad parenting or no discipline. There have been bad parents for as long as there have been children. I think that the biggest factor is a social shift from a culture in which families naturally spend lots of time connecting and bonding with one another to one in which individual family members operate largely independent of one another: The parents go to work, leaving the children with the babysitter or at school, then come home turn on the computer, the TV, or the XBox, and then send the children to bed. The kids go to school, then come home and play video games, watch TV, or listen to their ipods all alone. Even when the family is together, the focus is on some media device that inhibits meaningful conversation between parents and their children and siblings among one another. But, human beings were never meant to live in such isolation from one another.

Some good points, and I do not necessarily disagree. I´m not sure, though, that this is really the entire story of the core of the problem. But that would be subject to another - and certainly interesting - discussion.

And, the end result of this is that children do not have the safety, security, or opportunity to express their joys and pains with their parents in a developmentally healthy way. And, these feelings then come out in the form of misbehavior. A hundred years ago parents didn't spend hundreds of dollars on parenting books and most knew little or nothing about child development. They simply lived a lifestyle, out of necessity, that was highly social and created a relatively safe environment for children to thrive. Even when they made serious mistakes, by and large, the abundance of healthy social interactions between parents and children compensated. Now that we have so much less of the social aspect of family, our parenting mistakes are more prominent and affect children much more deeply than in times past.

Let me add just another - significant, as I think - aspect: A hundred or two hundred years ago families used to be much larger than the nucleus family as we know it today. Parents were not the only available close persons that provided opportunities for bonding and social interactions within the family.

The solution is not more "discipline" (at least not in the way that so many people use that word as a PC way of saying "punishment").

A resounding "yes!" from me.

The solution is better and more regular social connection within the family.

No disagreement again, but an addition: Parents would be well advised to allow and encourage children to explore opportunities for regular social connections outside the family. It is my conviction that the nucleus family is a too small and narrow system, and that diversity in experiencing models of social interactions is very important.

And, intrinsic in this, I think, is a lot more grace for parents who are doing the best that they can given the world that we live in, which is radically different than what previous generations of parents faced. That's my thought on the matter anyway.

Personally, I am not a great fan of such comparisons, anyway.

 

[ebia]

Well, I sense that your approach is driven by the question "What´s best for the child", and that gives us much common ground for a fruitful conversation even though we might differ in some aspects.

Noting that the three of us seem to be largely on the same page...

I´m not sure I agree fully. Of course, a judgemental glare like the one presented (which appears to be driven by the person´s desire for convenience) is not a helpful parenting advice.
Then again, sometimes it just takes a short episode for a bystander to tell the entire drama of a family. I.e. the guy behind me in the line at Wal-Mart may be spot on in his analysis and able to lay his finger on the underlying problem. His comment might be very helpful.

It might. But given the huge amount of bad advice that comes from such quarters and how unrealistic it is to thoroughly examine each and every comment... And often such moments are not realistic times to process such suggestions usefully anyway.

 

[quatona]

Noting that the three of us seem to be largely on the same page...

Yup.

It might. But given the huge amount of bad advice that comes from such quarters and how unrealistic it is to thoroughly examine each and every comment... And often such moments are not realistic times to process such suggestions usefully anyway.

Yes, for several reasons it may be the wrong moment, and I am free to consider or reject any given hint or advice as I see fit. I guess I wasn´t so much trying to answer the question "Is this best done at the Wal-Mart check out (and on top, in a situation where pressure is high, anyway?") - of course, it isn´t - but, more generally, trying to take a closer look at the statement "I am the parent, I know best". No doubt, parents do know relevant details that strangers don´t know (e.g. while strangers just see the situation at the given point, parents can take long term developments into consideration), but then again strangers often see things that the parents can´t see. Both is very valuable, both has its problems.
No doubt, any insensitive (and this includes picking the wrong moment) intervention by a stranger is likely to trigger the defense mechanisms of the parents rather than being perceived as an offer.

 

[LadyOfMystery]

I also think a lot of the time bad behavior is praised or said nothing about by the parent is because of favoritism or favoritism over the gender of the child (because he's a boy, or shes a girl) that nothing is done.

Believe me when I say theres a long line of people in my family who adore their sons/grandsons/nephews etc because they're boys. They arent disciplined, they get away with stuff and they're just so "cute". And it just comes down to their gender. Now there are girls of course in my fam (me being one lol) and when a female in our fam does something someone else in our fam sees out of line it's because we're unruly, ungrateful, pestering women.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I also think a lot of the time bad behavior is praised or said nothing about by the parent is because of favoritism or favoritism over the gender of the child (because he's a boy, or shes a girl) that nothing is done.

Believe me when I say theres a long line of people in my family who adore their sons/grandsons/nephews etc because they're boys. They arent disciplined, they get away with stuff and they're just so "cute". And it just comes down to their gender. Now there are girls of course in my fam (me being one lol) and when a female in our fam does something someone else in our fam sees out of line it's because we're unruly, ungrateful, pestering women.

I really find that worrisome because those are the boys who grow up to be date rapists and the dads excuse it saying "they're just being boys". And I don't mean that to your family specifically, but in general. I've seen it happen and we've all watched those Lifetime Movies...

 

[LadyOfMystery]

I really find that worrisome because those are the boys who grow up to be date rapists and the dads excuse it saying "they're just being boys". And I don't mean that to your family specifically, but in general. I've seen it happen and we've all watched those Lifetime Movies...

No I totally agree with you! It IS worrisome. A few mothers in my family feel what their boys do is funny, cute, correct, etc. And when you laugh at something bad he did because you "found it funny", he'll just go and do more and get away with more.

The reason I say mothers though is because mothers (IMO) are suppose to be the nurturers, the ones who put feeling into things and explain what is right and wrong from that point of view.

 

[StephieLuv]

I saw this kid in walmart on Saturday throwing a tantrum and hanging onto the freezer doors (holding them open) b/c he wanted something out of there. And the grandmother of this kid tried to pry her grandson off the freezer doors and tell him she wasn't going to get for him what he was crying for.
But, this boy wouldn't have it.
So, the grandmother turned to the next best thing: threatening to tell the child's mother.
You know, If ever I or my siblings acted out in public or something when we were little and we were in the care of our grandmother or other relatives. They took care of it!
(But then again, I grew up in the south)
Then the next morning in Sunday church service, This kid would not sit still during the entire worship service.
He roamed the auditorium, played in the pews that were sitting by the wall, crawled under the pews people were sitting in. He's even jumped over pews a few times.
He wouldn't keep quiet during prayer (Instead while everyone prayed, he made explosion noises with his action figures) his mother tries to keep control of him but i don't know if it's working.

 

[Murmur]

I saw this kid in walmart on Saturday throwing a tantrum and hanging onto the freezer doors (holding them open) b/c he wanted something out of there. And the grandmother of this kid tried to pry her grandson off the freezer doors and tell him she wasn't going to get for him what he was crying for.
But, this boy wouldn't have it.
So, the grandmother turned to the next best thing: threatening to tell the child's mother.
You know, If ever I or my siblings acted out in public or something when we were little and we were in the care of our grandmother or other relatives. They took care of it!
(But then again, I grew up in the south)
Then the next morning in Sunday church service, This kid would not sit still during the entire worship service.
He roamed the auditorium, played in the pews that were sitting by the wall, crawled under the pews people were sitting in. He's even jumped over pews a few times.
He wouldn't keep quiet during prayer (Instead while everyone prayed, he made explosion noises with his action figures) his mother tries to keep control of him but i don't know if it's working.

Sounds like the child needs one of those leash/backpacks. I think they're one of the most brilliant things invented, especially for stubborn little piggies. It's damage control, in my opinion.
And no, I'm sterilized, so I will never have children.

 

[LadyOfMystery]

Thats why I love church daycare. If your church has it, she can easily put him there while Church is happening. Or Sunday school. Children dont understand what church is, or what it means which is understandable - they're children. But parents at an early age need to teach their children about praying, God, fellowship, etc so when they are in church they may not know what it is but they'll know praying and the word "fellowship". Otherwise, I think it's best to put them in Sunday School where they can grow and learn.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

There is a major problem in America of children not being disciplined, of them running wild and behaving like spoiled rotten brats. This seems to happen especially in Wal-mart stores.

I was in Wal-mart yesterday and before i was in the check out aisle I heard a little girl screaming the next aisle over. Then, whenever i was in the check out lane, the lady behind me had this bratty little baby/toddler that screamed so loud he startled both me and my mother, nearly gave my poor mother a heart attack, made her jump. Then, this kid, about 1 or 2 years old, started putting his dirty hands all over our stuff on the check out counter, the stuff we were buying. he touched my back, now when they start touching you it gets bad. But what can you say without making yourself look like the bad guy? he drooled and got the book we were buying dirty, mother made no apologizes, she said to the little boy, "when are you going to behave yourself?" well, it will be when you teach him to, lady, how do you expect your kid to know how to behave in society if you never teach them? CHildren are born bad, knowing how to misbehave and throw tantrums, scream, cry, kick, hit , punch bite, scratch, pinch break things, and behave terribly, they need to be taught how to behave decently in society, that's called discpline.

The cashier reinfocred the toddler's bad behavior, she said, "oh, he's cute." No, bad behavior is not cute. Babies that misbehave are not cute. I'm not sure how old he was, looked about 2 years old, he was at least over 1 year old, old enough to start learning how to behave, it should start right away, teaching kids to behave good and have some manners.

So, my mom and I couldn't say anything to the woman and her child, but next time somthing like this happens, I will say something, I will defend myself and my rights. I will say something like, "your child is misbehaving," or "you need to teach your child to behave," or "tell your kid to stop screaming," whatever, something like that, beacuse i am really sick of having to put up with screaming misbeahving children in public.

Reading what Agape says, I have to agree with her here. Nobody blames a one or two year old for misbehaving in public. The child was screaming, had dirty hands, and was drooling. He touched a book and got dirt on it as it was being bought. This is bad behaviour; a child that young can't be expected to know that it is bad behaviour, but the parents should be managing him until he does know.
When that happens, I think Agape is quite right - the parents should have pulled the child back so that he wasn't touching things. If I were you, I'd be angry too. Saying "Aaaw, isn't that cute?" or "When will you learn to behave?" is bad parenting, and is giving other people trouble as well as setting yourself up for trouble later in life.

If that happened to me I hope I would say something like that, politely, to the parent. Maybe, "Please control your child and don't let him touch my property without asking."

By the way, I'm a teacher, and will be a parent in a few months.

Well, just wanted to say: quite right, Agape. What a rude parent.

 

[LadyOfMystery]

Interested, congrats on your new addition

And I agree. I hear that a lot in my family "when will you learn?" I always want to say "When you teach them." lol

 

[rambot]

In my experience, kids can be guided by strangers. I've had to redirect kids I didn't know. A kind reprimand and redirect can come from ANY adult. There are DEFINITELY parents out there who push boundaries with what they let their kids allow and some people don't have big problems with it.

If you have a problem with it (as I did), there's no reason why you couldn't teach them a quick lesson with words and tone.

Everyone likes the idea of "it takes a village to raise a child" but it appears that not everyone wants to contribute to that rearing. Can't say with certainty why that is, but it does seem like there is so much fear around it.