I don't agree with Mr Geisler.Paul wrote:
1 Cor 11:20-22 When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? NIV
Clearly is was not highly diluted wine being drunk at the communal meals if some became drunk. And Paul is also suggesting that it was OK to drink alcoholic beverages at home.
John
NZ
paul says "a little" for a medical remedy. Nothing else is implied.
wine was no more that 5% or as strong as a wine cooler, probably less due to the fact they drank a lot in a sitting. More likely it tasted more like juice with a little bitterness, some believe the use of wine can be a generalization for juice. However, we know it was wine, just weak wine. So both are right, it was a spiked grape juice. With anywhere from 10% -33% alcohol of our table wines, but Christ being not in the elite groups probably had the lower end stuff.
How do I know that it was a juice or a wine cooler type of drink that was served
.well Edersheim knew history as secular and Jewish, so His would be more accurate than simply a historian that doesn't know the customs of the Jews. Here are various quotes
According to the Talmud most of the calves for sacrifices were brought from that district. The wine of Sharon was celebrated, and, for beverage, supposed to be mixed with
one-third of water.
The cup, in which, according to express Rabbinic testimony,a the
wine had been mixed with water before it was blessed, had passed round. The next part of the ceremonial was for the Head of the Company to rise and wash hands. It is this part of the ritual of which St. Johnb records the adaptation and transformation on the part of Christ. The washing of the disciples feet is evidently connected with the ritual of handwashing. Now this was done twice during the Paschal Supper:c the first time by the Head of the Company alone, immediately after the first cup; the second time by all present, at a much later part of the service, immediately before the actual meal (on the Lamb, &c.).
This is not the place to furnish what may be termed a list of menus at Jewish tables. In earlier times the meal was, no doubt, very simple. It became otherwise when intercourse with Rome, Greece, and the East made the people familiar with foreign luxury, while commerce supplied its requirements. Indeed, it would scarcely be possible to enumerate the various articles which seem to have been imported from different, and even distant, countries.
To begin with: the wine was mixed with water, and, indeed, some thought that the benediction should not be pronounced till the water had been added to the wine.a According to one statement, two parts,b according to another, three parts, of water were to be added to the wine.c Various vintages are mentioned: among them a red wine of Saron, and a black wine. Spiced wine was made with honey and pepper. Another mixture, chiefly used for invalids, consisted of old wine, water, and balsam; yet another was wine of myrrh;d we also read of a wine in which capers had been soaked. To these we should add wine spiced, either with pepper, or with absinth; and what is described as vinegar, a cooling drink made either of grapes that had not ripened, or of the lees. Besides these, palm-wine was also in use. Of foreign drinks, we read of wine from Ammon, and from the province Asia, the latter a kind of must boiled down. Wine in ice came from the Lebanon; a certain kind of vinegar from Idumæa; beer from Media and Babylon; a barley-wine (zythos) from Egypt. Finally, we ought to mention Palestinian apple-cider,e and the juice of other fruits. If we adopt the rendering of some, even liqueurs were known and used.
The cup, in which, according to express Rabbinic testimony,a the wine had been mixed with water before it was blessed, had passed round. The next part of the ceremonial was for the Head of the Company to rise and wash hands. It is this part of the ritual of which St. Johnb records the adaptation and transformation on the part of Christ. The washing of the disciples feet is evidently connected with the ritual of handwashing. Now this was done twice during the Paschal Supper:c the first time by the Head of the Company alone, immediately after the first cup; the second time by all present, at a much later part of the service, immediately before the actual meal (on the Lamb, &c.). If the footwashing had taken place on the latter occasion, it is natural to suppose that, when the Lord rose, all the disciples would have followed His example, and so the washing of their feet would have been impossible. Again, the foot-washing, which was intended both as a lesson and as an example of humility and service,d was evidently connected with the dispute which of them should be accounted to be greatest. If so, the symbolical act of our Lord must have followed close on the strife of the disciples, and on our Lords teaching what in the Church constituted rule and greatness. Hence the act must have been connected with the first handwashingthat by the Head of the Companyimmediately after the first cup, and not with that at a later period, when much else had intervened.
If the view formerly expressed is correct, that the owner of the house had provided all that was needed for the Supper, Peter and John would find there the Wine for the four Cups, the cakes of unleavened Bread, and probably also the bitter herbs. Of the latter five kinds are mentioned,c which were to be dipped once in salt water, or vinegar, and another time in a mixture called Charoseth (a compound made of nuts, raisins, apples, almonds, &c.1)although this Charoseth was not obligatory. The wine was the ordinary one of the country, only red; it was mixed with water, generally in the proportion of one part to two of water.2 The quantity for each of the four Cups is stated by one authority as five-sixteenths of a log, which may be roughly computed at half a tumblerof course mixed with water.1 The Paschal Cup is described (according to the rubrical measure, which of course would not always be observed) as two fingers long by two fingers broad, and its height as a finger, half a finger, and one-third of a finger. All things being, as we presume, ready in the furnished upper room, it would only remain for Peter and John to see to the Paschal Lamb, and anything else required for the Supper, possibly also to what was to be offered as Chagigah, or festive sacrifice, and afterwards eaten at the Supper. If the latter were to be brought, the disciples would, of course, have to attend earlier in the Temple. The cost of the Lamb, which had to be provided, was very small. So low a sum as about threepence of our money is mentioned for such a sacrifice.a But this must refer to a hypothetical case rather than to the ordinary cost, and we prefer the more reasonable computation, from one Selab to three Selaim,c i.e. from 2s. 6d. to 7s. 6d. of our money.
The Mishnah continues to explain that, in order to involve guilt, the thing carried from one locality to another must be sufficient to be entrusted for safe keeping. The quantity is regulated: as regards the food of animals, to the capacity of their mouth; as regards man, a dried fig is the standard. As regards fluids, the measure is as much wine as is used for one cup, that isthe measure of the cup being a quarter of a log, and wine being mixed with water in the proportion of three parts water to one of wineone-sixteenth of a log.2 As regards milk, a mouthful; of honey, sufficient to lay on a wound; of oil, sufficient to anoint the smallest member; of water, sufficient to wet eyesalve; and of all other fluids, a quarter of a log.
As regarded other substances, the standard as to what constituted a burden was whether the thing could be turned to any practical use, however trifling. Thus, two horses hairs might be made into a birdtrap; a scrap of clean paper into a custom-house notice; a small piece of paper written upon might be converted into a wrapper for a small flagon. In all these cases, therefore, transport would involve sin. Similarly, ink sufficient to write two letters, wax enough to fill up a small hole, even a pebble with which you might aim at a little bird, or a small piece of broken earthenware with which you might stir the coals, would be burdens!
Passing to another aspect of the subject, the Mishnah lays it down that, in order to constitute sin, a thing must have been carried from one locality into another entirely and immediately, and that it must have been done in the way in which things are ordinarily carried. If an object which one person could carry is carried by two, they are not guilty. Finally, like all labour on the Sabbath, that of cutting ones nails or hair involves mortal sin, but only if it is done in the ordinary way, otherwise only the lesser sin of the breach of the Sabbath rest. A very interesting notice in connection with St. John 5, is that in which it is explained how it would not involve sin to carry a living person on a pallet, the pallet being regarded only as an accessory to the man; while to carry a dead body in such manner, or even the smallest part of a dead body, would involve guilt.
Pesach dinner I think
The Mishnah Account
As detailed in the earliest Jewish record of ordinancesthe Mishnahthe service of the Paschal Supper was exceedingly simple. Indeed, the impression left on the mind is, that, while all the observances were fixed, the prayers, with some exceptions preserved to us, were free. Rabbi Gamaliel, the teacherof St. Paul, said:1 Whoever does not explain three things in the Passover has not fulfilled the duty incumbent on him. These three things are: the Passover lamb, the unleavened bread, and the bitter herbs. The Passover lamb means that God passed over the blood-sprinkled place on the houses of our fathers in Egypt; the unleavened bread means that our fathers were delivered out of Egypt (in haste); and the bitter herbs mean that the Egyptians made bitter the lives of our fathers in Egypt. A few additional particulars are necessary to enable the reader to understand all the arrangements of the Paschal Supper. From the time of the evening-sacrifice nothing was to be eaten till the Paschal Supper, so that all might come to it with relish.2 It is a moot point, whether at the time of our Lord two, or, as at present, three, large cakes of unleavened bread were used in the service. The Mishnah mentions3 these five kinds as falling within the designation of bitter herbs, viz. lettuce, endive, succory (garden endive?), what is called Charchavina (urtica, beets?), and horehound (bitter coriander?). The bitter herbs seem to have been twice partaken of during the service, once dipped in salt water or vinegar, and a second time with Charoseth, a compound of dates, raisins, etc., and vinegar, though the Mishnah expressly declares4 that Charoseth was not obligatory. Red wine alone was to be used at the Paschal Supper, and always mixed with water.5 Each of the four cups must contain at least the fourth of a quarter of an hin (the hin = one gallon two pints). Lastly, it was a principle that, after the Paschal meal, they had no Aphikomen (after-dish), an expression which may perhaps best be rendered by dessert.
The Giving Thanks
The Paschal Supper itself commenced by the head of the company taking the first cup of wine in his hand, and giving thanks over it in these words: Blessed art Thou, Jehovah our God, who hast created the fruit of the vine! Blessed art Thou, Jehovah our God King of the Universe, who hast chosen us from among all people, and exalted us from among all languages, and sanctified us with Thy commandments! And Thou hast given us, O Jehovah our God, in love, the solemn days for joy, and the festivals and appointed seasons for gladness; and this the day of the feast of unleavened bread, the season of our freedom, a holy convocation, the memorial of our departure from Egypt. For us hast Thou chosen; and us hast Thou sanctified from among all nations, and Thy holy festivals with joy and with gladness hast Thou caused us to inherit. Blessed art Thou, O Jehovah, who sanctifiest Israel and the appointed seasons! Blessed art Thou, Jehovah, King of the Universe, who hast preserved us alive and sustained us and brought us to this season!1
The First Cup
The first cup of wine was then drunk, and each washed his hands.1 It was evidently at this time that the Saviour in His self-humiliation proceeded also to wash the disciples feet.2
Edersheim, Alfred: Sketches of Jewish Social Life. Grand Rapids, MI: Christian Classics Ethereal Library
a Babha B. 97 b, lines 11 and 12 from top
b St. John 13.
c Pes. 10. 4
Edersheim, Alfred: The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. Bellingham, WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1896, 2003, S. 2:497
a Ber. 7:5.
b Nidd. 2:7
c Pes. 108 a
d Mentioned in St. Mark 15:23
e Terum. 11:2
Edersheim, Alfred: The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. Bellingham, WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1896, 2003, S. 2:208
a Babha B. 97 b, lines 11 and 12 from top
b St. John 13.
c Pes. 10. 4
d St. John 13:1216
Edersheim, Alfred: The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. Bellingham, WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1896, 2003, S. 2:497
c Pes. 2. 6
1 As it was symbolic of the clay on which the children of Israel worked in Egypt, the rubric has it that it must be thick (Pes. 116 a).
2 The contention that it was unfermented wine is not worth serious discussion, although in modern practice (for reasons needless to mention) its use is allowed.
1 The whole rubric is found in Jer. Pes. 37 c. The log = to the contents of six eggs. Herzfeld (Handelsgesch. p. 184) makes 1/32 of a log = a dessert spoon. 12 log = 1 hin.
a Chag. 1. 2
b Menach. 13. 8
c Sheqal. 2. 4
Edersheim, Alfred: The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. Bellingham, WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1896, 2003, S. 2:485-486
2 It has been calculated by Herzfeld that a log = 0.36 of a litre; six hens eggs.
Edersheim, Alfred: The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. Bellingham, WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1896, 2003, S. 2:783-784
1 Pes. 10. 15.
