Christianity and Beer

Cactus Jack

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One thing that amuses me about stuff like this is all these folks that talk high & mighty about "don't do this" and "don't do that" and blah blah blah to get to Heaven. Yet they themselves are far from perfect. And when you point that out to them, they'll say "but I'm only human". Which gets me to think about Matthew 7.

Sometimes I get to thinking that the holier than thou folks have their heads in a certain place performing a manual endoscopy for the warmth.
 
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TheDag

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One thing that amuses me about stuff like this is all these folks that talk high & mighty about "don't do this" and "don't do that" and blah blah blah to get to Heaven. Yet they themselves are far from perfect. And when you point that out to them, they'll say "but I'm only human". Which gets me to think about Matthew 7.

Sometimes I get to thinking that the holier than thou folks have their heads in a certain place performing a manual endoscopy for the warmth.
oh you are cactus!
i mean you cactus me up!
i mean you crack me up!!!:D
 
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createdtoworship

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I don't see any reason to come to this conclusion.

“This is not the place to furnish what may be termed a list of menus at Jewish tables. In earlier times the meal was, no doubt, very simple. It became otherwise when intercourse with Rome, Greece, and the East made the people familiar with foreign luxury, while commerce supplied its requirements. Indeed, it would scarcely be possible to enumerate the various articles which seem to have been imported from different, and even distant, countries.
To begin with: the wine was mixed with water, and, indeed, some thought that the benediction should not be pronounced till the water had been added to the wine.a According to one statement, two parts,b according to another, three parts, of water were to be added to the wine.c Various vintages are mentioned: among them a red wine of Saron, and a black wine. Spiced wine was made with honey and pepper. Another mixture, chiefly used for invalids, consisted of old wine, water, and balsam; yet another was ‘wine of myrrh;’d we also read of a wine in which capers had been soaked. To these we should add wine spiced, either with pepper, or with absinth; and what is described as vinegar, a cooling drink made either of grapes that had not ripened, or of the lees. Besides these, palm-wine was also in use. Of foreign drinks, we read of wine from Ammon, and from the province Asia, the latter a kind of ‘must’ boiled down. Wine in ice came from the Lebanon; a certain kind of vinegar from Idumæa; beer from Media and Babylon; a barley-wine (zythos) from Egypt. Finally, we ought to mention Palestinian apple-cider,e and the juice of other fruits. If we adopt the rendering of some, even liqueurs were known and used.”

edeirsheim History.

So some believed it was 25% wine, versus 33% wine. Some Believed it was 3 parts water and one part wine. 25% of 12% is only 3% alcohol.
 
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createdtoworship

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Edersheim is a reliable source,but even diluted wine rather misses the point. If one's objection is any drink containing alcohol then the amount is inconsequential. Edersheim's view would support sensible drinking rather than a total prohibition.

John
NZ

I never said they didn't drink alcohol. Alcohol was needed to control bacteria growth for long periods of warm weather. But not that much is needed. However the culture did change to involve getting drunk. However Jesus didn't support that idea. And the public appearance of drinking is a problem too. In Jesus day they didn't have a choice, either wine or bacteria water. But we have a choice now days. A beer at home is better than a beer in church parking lot. You see my point.
 
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WannaWitness

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Most NA beer has a small percentage of alcohol, something like 0.5% I think...

But not enough to make one drunk (unless you drink 100 or so, which is impossible in one sitting). That's why there was a lady I knew (who was a pretty heavy drinker) call it "fake beer".
 
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Timothew

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It's not about to drink or not to drink but more in going beyond that.
I agree: For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, (Romans 14:17)

Drinking one or two beers is okay, and not drinking a beer is okay too. It's irrelevant to holy living. Loving God, loving your neighbor, living at peace with one another, and being joyful is more important than the alcohol percentages in various beverages.
 
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JoeyArnold

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I agree: For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, (Romans 14:17). Drinking one or two beers is okay, and not drinking a beer is okay too. It's irrelevant to holy living. Loving God, loving your neighbor, living at peace with one another, and being joyful is more important than the alcohol percentages in various beverages.


Farther, it is not about good versus worse but good versus better.
 
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WannaWitness

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I agree: For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, (Romans 14:17)

Drinking one or two beers is okay, and not drinking a beer is okay too. It's irrelevant to holy living. Loving God, loving your neighbor, living at peace with one another, and being joyful is more important than the alcohol percentages in various beverages.

Great point.
 
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Timothew

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Farther, it is not about good versus worse but good versus better.

images
versus
images
?
 
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Ortho_Cat

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“This is not the place to furnish what may be termed a list of menus at Jewish tables. In earlier times the meal was, no doubt, very simple. It became otherwise when intercourse with Rome, Greece, and the East made the people familiar with foreign luxury, while commerce supplied its requirements. Indeed, it would scarcely be possible to enumerate the various articles which seem to have been imported from different, and even distant, countries.
To begin with: the wine was mixed with water, and, indeed, some thought that the benediction should not be pronounced till the water had been added to the wine.a According to one statement, two parts,b according to another, three parts, of water were to be added to the wine.c Various vintages are mentioned: among them a red wine of Saron, and a black wine. Spiced wine was made with honey and pepper. Another mixture, chiefly used for invalids, consisted of old wine, water, and balsam; yet another was ‘wine of myrrh;’d we also read of a wine in which capers had been soaked. To these we should add wine spiced, either with pepper, or with absinth; and what is described as vinegar, a cooling drink made either of grapes that had not ripened, or of the lees. Besides these, palm-wine was also in use. Of foreign drinks, we read of wine from Ammon, and from the province Asia, the latter a kind of ‘must’ boiled down. Wine in ice came from the Lebanon; a certain kind of vinegar from Idumæa; beer from Media and Babylon; a barley-wine (zythos) from Egypt. Finally, we ought to mention Palestinian apple-cider,e and the juice of other fruits. If we adopt the rendering of some, even liqueurs were known and used.”

edeirsheim History.

So some believed it was 25% wine, versus 33% wine. Some Believed it was 3 parts water and one part wine. 25% of 12% is only 3% alcohol.

we know two things about the wine at the wedding of Caana:

1. Jesus made it miraculously
2. It was choice wine

"Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

implying that it was high quality and not diluted.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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But not enough to make one drunk (unless you drink 100 or so, which is impossible in one sitting). That's why there was a lady I knew (who was a pretty heavy drinker) call it "fake beer".

yes you would probably have to have 10 NA's to equal 1 normal beer.
 
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createdtoworship

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we know two things about the wine at the wedding of Caana:

1. Jesus made it miraculously
2. It was choice wine

"Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

implying that it was high quality and not diluted.

alcohol is never the "best." actually it was the vintage that was high quality. There were many types of wines from different ingredients. Only the best quality ingredients etc was the "best"

again edersheim quotes history:

Various vintages are mentioned: among them a red wine of Saron, and a black wine. Spiced wine was made with honey and pepper. Another mixture, chiefly used for invalids, consisted of old wine, water, and balsam; yet another was ‘wine of myrrh;’d we also read of a wine in which capers had been soaked. To these we should add wine spiced, either with pepper, or with absinth; and what is described as vinegar, a cooling drink made either of grapes that had not ripened, or of the lees. Besides these, palm-wine was also in use. Of foreign drinks, we read of wine from Ammon, and from the province Asia, the latter a kind of ‘must’ boiled down. Wine in ice came from the Lebanon; a certain kind of vinegar from Idumæa; beer from Media and Babylon; a barley-wine (zythos) from Egypt. Finally, we ought to mention Palestinian apple-cider,e and the juice of other fruits. If we adopt the rendering of some, even liqueurs were known and used.”
 
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blong4133

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One thing that amuses me about stuff like this is all these folks that talk high & mighty about "don't do this" and "don't do that" and blah blah blah to get to Heaven. Yet they themselves are far from perfect. And when you point that out to them, they'll say "but I'm only human". Which gets me to think about Matthew 7.

Sometimes I get to thinking that the holier than thou folks have their heads in a certain place performing a manual endoscopy for the warmth.

I agree that we are all imperfect. That is part of the reason why I asked the question to begin with. I was raised that we, as humans, are going to sin. Plain and simple. And all that we have to do is ask God for forgiveness and we are forgiven. However, that does not excuse me sinning intentionally by telling myself "oh, I can do this because after, I'll just ask for forgiveness and it will be fine." We are not supposed to do that. Sometimes our minds go of into dark places, sometimes we let our tongue get loose, sometimes we make bad decisions. But we cannot make those decisions with the acknowledgment that "i'm about to sin, but it's ok because God will forgive me." If we adopted that approach, then we could sin without worry because all we have to do is ask for forgiveness.

I don't want to do something if I know that it is a sin. Sometimes, I do it anyways because I'm a human and I cannot be strong 100% of the time...but I try. I just don't want to have a few beers if it is a sin to even take a sip. I do not want to choose to do something, knowing that I am going to have to ask God for forgiveness afterwords. IF you have to do that, you shouldn't do it in the first place. I just have never felt like having a beer or two with my dinner requires forgiveness because I'm not abusing it.

I too will have a dry wedding. I think having beer at weddings plays to the stereotype that beer is a pathway to sin. At the weddings I've been to,yes, beer or alcohol is used gratuitously. I just personally feel that marriage is a sacred event that is made possible through God, so why have alcohol at MY wedding, when I know that those who attend will use it in a way unfavorable to God?

But I agree that I was wrong about having beer to help with my stress. I never did think of it that way. The night I posted this topic, I spoke with my girlfriend about this discussion, and we both felt that I was wrong by doing that. So I have learned a valuable lesson through this post, and I think you to those of you who have contributed and for keeping it civil. God Bless you all!
 
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use whatever reason you want to drink it, myself, I do it because I like it

God doesn't put stipulations on faith, I can still turn my problems into him. The astonishing is, I've learned he listens even if you don't follow what you think he sees as a perfect life.

In return, it helps me realize that drinking beer for some people is a conscience issue, but in the grand scheme when it comes to life decisions and things that God is REALLY concerned with, it isn't an issue

you're making a mountain out of a molehill and you can probably find more important things (in Gods eyes) to be concerned with

watch with topics like this, you'll see that people are paying way too much attention to these trivial issues. They've over thought it and worked it into a critical part of their faith, which means their faith is weak. We know in Romans that some people are stronger than others. Your salvation doesn't depend on a beer, and not much else depends on it either.
 
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TheDag

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we know two things about the wine at the wedding of Caana:

1. Jesus made it miraculously
2. It was choice wine

"Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

implying that it was high quality and not diluted.
not to mention the implication that when the guests have had so much to drink they won't notice the difference between good wine and bad wine. That is also very telling.
 
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TheDag

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But not enough to make one drunk (unless you drink 100 or so, which is impossible in one sitting). That's why there was a lady I knew (who was a pretty heavy drinker) call it "fake beer".
anyone who claims alcohol in biblical times can not get you drunk is clearly ignoring scripture.
If it was not possible to get drunk then
-Jesus would not have been called a drunkard
-The apostles would not have been accused of being drunk at pentecost
-noah would not have been drunk, naked and passed out

So clearly one could get drunk in biblical times. it is not a recent thing the ability to get drunk. Saying otherwise is just people who have either been mislead or are trying to justify a belief based on what they want rather than what the bible states.
 
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many of the people pushing anti-alcohol agendas are coming out of communities or cultures that want to be seen as sober and clean by man. This could even be from embarrasments they have had, because they have more religion than God going on in their churches, and as the bible says, religion has no power over the desires of the flesh.

so I actually encourage people to drink. God didn't call us to hide in a cave where we didn't see women, nice cars, and no beer. How did Jesus connect with the common people? he partied

there is a modern disconnect here where Christians are perceived as goody two shoes that can't even handle a tooth pick. Unfortunately, this is true for the vast majority of Christians in North America at least, as over 90% of them don't even have a biblical world view. Thus, the world can never respect them.
 
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createdtoworship

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anyone who claims alcohol in biblical times can not get you drunk is clearly ignoring scripture.
If it was not possible to get drunk then
-Jesus would not have been called a drunkard
-The apostles would not have been accused of being drunk at pentecost
-noah would not have been drunk, naked and passed out

So clearly one could get drunk in biblical times. it is not a recent thing the ability to get drunk. Saying otherwise is just people who have either been mislead or are trying to justify a belief based on what they want rather than what the bible states.

so saying that Jesus got every one wasted at the wedding at cana is really any better?

Edersheim in His life and times of the Messiah, holds a literal history of the early christianity and Jewish thought.

no mention of being drunk once in it. While hundreds of occasions of wine is mentioned as I have posted. All mixed with 1/3 to 1/4 alcohol to water. Now the only occasion of being drunk is in the account of a demon. I will post it below just to be fair....

"a Ashmedai (perhaps a Parsee name), Ashmodi, Ashmedon, or Shamdon, the king of the demons (Gitt. 68 a, b; Pes. 110 a). It deserves notice, that this name does not occur in the Jerusalem Talmud nor in older Palestinian sources.1 He is represented as of immense size and strength, as cunning, malignant, and dissolute. At times, however, he is known also to do works of kindness—such as to lead the blind, or to show the road to a drunken man. Of course, he foreknows the future, can do magic, but may be rendered serviceable by the use of the ‘Ineffable Name,’ and especially by the signet of King Solomon, on which it was graven. The story of Solomen’s power over him is well known, and can here only be referred to in briefest outline. It is said, that as no iron was to be used in the construction of the Temple, Solomon was anxious to secure the services of the worm Shamir, which possessed the power of cutting stones (see about him Ab. Z. 12 a; Sot. 48 b; Gitt. 68 a, b).. By advice of the Sanhedrin, Solomon conjured up for this purpose a male and a female Shed, who directed him to Ashmedai. The latter lived at the bottom of a deep cistern on a high mountain. Every morning on leaving it to go into heaven and hear the decrees of the Upper Sanhedrin, he covered the cistern with a stone, and sealed it. On this Benayah, armed with a chain, and Solomen’s signet with the Ineffable Name, went and filled the cistern with wine, which Ashmedai, as all other spirits, hated. But as he could not otherwise quench his thirst, Ashmedai became drunk"
Edersheim, Alfred: The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. Bellingham, WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1896, 2003, S. 2:761
 
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createdtoworship

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not to mention the implication that when the guests have had so much to drink they won't notice the difference between good wine and bad wine. That is also very telling.

so again, Jesus got everyone wasted. Then commands not to be drunk later on in the Bible?
 
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