• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Staff and Member discussion thread.

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Lulav

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I have been preparing a response, and as others have said, it is nearly past time to be appropriate!

I saw this post, which troubles me anew. I don't think the original post was off topic, but this one is delivering a positional/doctrinal stance. This statement (below) in particular, is a frequent kind of response that comes back in many discussions with those who have not studied from a Hebraic viewpoint. It seems to again, demonstrate a fear that any effort to be obedient to our Father's righteous teachings is potentially dangerous. I don't think any one of mature belief would argue that an inappropriate dwelling on the "Law" would be destructive, but how often have you heard people comment on the inappropriate dwelling on "grace" and the danger of antinomianism?

The Law only becomes a burden, a "yoke", and impediment, as stumbling block when a person becomes all consumed in the Law to the exclusion of the Gospel.


The very first song to praise our King

1 Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night. :clap::bow::amen:
 
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The Templar

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I'm surprised that people think that video I posted I think was anti Torah. The conclusion is there isn't much difference.

What someone have to do? Make a confession publically in regards to Torah.

Yes, a public confession followed by a first rate stoning!
Just move over a bit Brother, I'm too close to the edge...
 
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The Templar

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I'm really having trouble with your venomous responses. I'm sure if you toned down your accusations and approached this thread as one wanting to see solutions rather than arguments, we'd all have a better dialog. As a Mod - do you handle all your posts this way?

I publicly apologize for any harshness in my response.
Especially in light of the fine and loving posts to which I am responding, how could I hold any degree of harshness...
Can you explain the need for the demands in response to a request for respect of all on this forum?

Don't you just wonder how those who have been falsly accused, attacked and chased away from this forum feel...
 
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anisavta

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Don't you just wonder how those who have been falsly accused, attacked and chased away from this forum feel...
Yes Templar I've been there myself - like right now to be honest.
Again I ask you - why have we not seen you post here in the past and yet now you're taking ownership for it?
I publicly apologize for any harshness in my response.
Especially in light of the fine and loving posts to which I am responding, how could I hold any degree of harshness...
Are you being honest here or is this another snarky response? I just don't understand your approach to this dialog.
 
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Avodat

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I must agree with Bro. Mark, I also am not aware of a "Mainstream Denomination" holding to this teaching. Can you provide SoF's to support this?

My goodness, you live in a very small world! It obviously will not show on SoF's as they do not generally cover a view on the Law, though it may say they are saved by faith/grace alone. It will appear, however, in the teaching in their training colleges and in the books they use to teach ministers / lay preachers and in the teaching Sunday by Sunday either overtly or covertly. Some denominations are institutionally anti-Law regardless of what an SoF might actually say. It is also clearly at hand in Churches that preach RT - look at Peakes' Commentary and you will find that RT is explicitly promoted there so that they preach that the Church is the New Israel and they are not covered by the Law but by Christ's law in the Gospels - using a perversion of Paul's words to support their contention. I have come across it many times in over 20 years of ministry! Don't kid yourself that all is rosy. It isn't.
 
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Lulav

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Yes Templar I've been there myself - like right now to be honest.
Again I ask you - why have we not seen you post here in the past and yet now you're taking ownership for it?
Are you being honest here or is this another snarky response? I just don't understand your approach to this dialog.

All of his posts are full of snarkyness, hardly what one would expect from a Moderator, a Pastor, and a Messianic. Though I can find evidence for only one out of three, guess which one? ;)
 
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The Templar

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The sad part is, I feel you know it a false attack designed to get someone angry enough to take your side against others thereby robbing them of the equal right to be here and share their view.

This is not just "his side". Your accusations are not correct.
When spoken by self it becomes your opinion.

As far as "violations against the Torah observant", I have not witnessed one single example of anyone dismissing Torah and teaching others the same on this forum. If the issue is the degree of Torah observance, that is not an issue for here. The level of Torah observance is an issue between the believer and God, not for open debate and attack on an open forum.

Are you sure you're talking about MJ? I haven't seen you here except a few times and I frequent this forum almost every day. You are not one of our regulars. Only those who do not want anything to do with Torah are the ones who come here in attack mode. And isn't open debate within the realm of respect what we are working towards?
One sided is the only desired effect demonstrated by the demand to censor a video which has been place as a sticky

The difference is that some realize the two schools and have chosen to be more tolerant of the differing opinions as opposed to others who wish to deny access and attack at every opportunity. Where do you stand? Shall I guess? This is close to a flame sir.
No, it's a question leaving a muliple choice to the intended party.

Also remember, this is a report free thread.
What am I to "MODERATE"? Perhaps you mean "CENSOR"?
I'm really having trouble with your venomous responses. I'm sure if you toned down your accusations and approached this thread as one wanting to see solutions rather than arguments, we'd all have a better dialog. As a Mod - do you handle all your posts this way?

I only ask the obvious, it is in no way intended as "venomous". I apologize if it is perceived that way. However better dialog also should be free of demands for a one sided dialog and censoring of information.
 
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pat34lee

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I would suggest adding another one to your list, related to the First, but I don't know how you would see it.

Some Jewish people who are not saved, do keep the law.

Since they are not saved, I assume your view is that the law keeping meant nothing?

If a Jewish person who is not saved, and keeps the law, later accepts Yeshua. Does their lawkeeping from pre-salvation enhance their status? Is it counted towards their status?

Actually, I think they are in the third group. Until they are convinced of Yeshua's messiahship, they are judged on how they follow YHWH according to Torah.
 
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Lulav

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As King Sol said, there's nothing new under the sun

Divisions in the Church

10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas "; still another, "I follow Christ."
 
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The Templar

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My goodness, you live in a very small world! It obviously will not show on SoF's as they do not generally cover a view on the Law, though it may say they are saved by faith/grace alone. It will appear, however, in the teaching in their training colleges and in the books they use to teach ministers / lay preachers and in the teaching Sunday by Sunday either overtly or covertly. Some denominations are institutionally anti-Law regardless of what an SoF might actually say. It is also clearly at hand in Churches that preach RT - look at Peakes' Commentary and you will find that RT is explicitly promoted there so that they preach that the Church is the New Israel and they are not covered by the Law but by Christ's law in the Gospels - using a perversion of Paul's words to support their contention. I have come across it many times in over 20 years of ministry! Don't kid yourself that all is rosy. It isn't.

Perhaps I do live in a small world, books, family and little (if any) television.
I do not seek that which divides, only that which can bring greater unity in The Body of Yeshua.
I have a fair level of training, and from many differing schools. I will stand by my statement. If it is not in the SoF it does not exist, if we are honest with our SoF. Now do some teach that which is outside sound doctrine? I'm sure they do, I just don't personally know of it. If it be, why judge all within that group?
Sometimes it better to give grace before we judge what someone else believes.
The main point of this thread is how to accommodate all MJ's in a single forum.
 
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SAM Wis

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Unfortunately many are mistaken that the Law is done away with. Christ fulfilled the Law and as such if we are in Christ then the Law does not apply just as a speeding law does not appluy to someojne who doesnt drive. However they must be in Christ Jesus, not just have Christ in them, there is a difference. If you have killed the flesh and walk in the spirit then the Law has no effect on you but what if you havent? The answer is obvious

Greetings;

I am not exactly certain of the sentiments intended to be expressed here?
It appears to be a mixed message to me.

I have bolded the sentences in question here. No, I don't think the answer to the questions may be as obvious as indicated.

Fulfill: in western understanding, this word is used as it is here, with the implied meaning that something is finished, completed, no longer applies.

In Hebraic understanding, to fulfill the Word means to lift it up, to identify or explicate it correctly. To fulfill the Word rather than abolish it, has to do with correctly identifying the true heart and character of our Elohim in an interpretation.

On the other hand, abolishing the Word has to do with offering an interpretation that in some way misrepresents or demeans the heart and character of our Creator.

Our Yeshua completely fulfilled the Word in that His life and actions correctly interpreted the true nature of YHWH. So that we could see and learn; drawing on His Spirit as the only way we could even hope to become more like Him.


The "Law" is the English translation of the word Torah.
The word Torah is Strong's 8451, meaning law, direction, instruction
From the root word, yarah: 3384, meaning to throw, shoot, cast.

The paleo or ancient Hebrew pictographic meaning of both the word Torah, and yarah the root,

confirm that the meaning of this word, translated in such a limited fashion into English is NOT just a law as we might think of it, as in a speeding law, but rather a direction and instruction pointing out the correct direction in which to go.

Rather like the English expression "to hit the mark" as in aiming at a target bull's eye.

So when we honor His Righteous teachings, we are accepting His direction and the way we are to walk, thus hitting the mark of His standard, not our own.

Hattah, one Hebrew word for sin, correspondingly, literally means "to miss the mark."

If we are not honoring His standard, we will not be able to hit the bull's eye, and sometimes may not even be near the target at all!

I suggest a word study on "the way we walk" checking the word "walk" and phrase in the entire Scripture. A picture that is completely in focus and agreement all the way from Genesis to Revelation will appear as I know because I have already done this. (study available on our website)


These sentences indicate a more western or Greek mindset or understanding as opposed to the more functional Hebrew mindset.

Either way, whether we are humbly submitting to His teachings on righteousness OR if we are rebelliously defiant toward them, His righteous teachings ARE affecting us.

:groupray:
 
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Tishri1

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Er, shouldn't all this debate about Torah be on the 'Anything Torah' thread? Could have sworn that point was made by the mods near the beginning of this thread.
Yes that would be one solution, but only if we are all behind that. I don't want any of our subforums seen as ghettos, that is not our vision for having them.
 
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Jerushabelle

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Ok no problem:thumbsup:

Really?... then what is wrong with putting up the seal of Jerusalem as the Messianic icon? It is what is universally accepted as representative of Messianic Judaism.

And instead of just saying no anti-Torah remarks since that can clearly be twisted into the perspective that there is only one level of Torah observance along with mandatory Torah compliance implication ie. post #327, say something along the lines of all Messianics know that Torah (the Mosaic Law) has importance in the expression of the faith and that not all Messianics look to Torah (the Mosaic Law) identically. Some comply with Torah (the Mosaic Law) strictly while others do not while all understand that Torah is guidance from God that is to be upheld. Remarks implying that Torah has been done away with will not be tolerated. Dissing anyone's level of Torah observance will not be tolerated.

And can we get rid of the Non-trinitarian Messianic icon? It flies in the face of CF admission rules. If I could not be granted a grafted in icon, so that people would recognize me as a non-Jewish believer, why should someone be able to proclaim that they don't agree with the Trinity? Yes, I understand that some in Messianism and indeed Messianism itself has a slightly different perspective of the Trinity than others in the Body but one universal icon would go a long way to supporting unity. Sister Qnts2 and I agree that Torah is not the whole shebang when it comes to Messianism (and yes, I know that some feel that is anti-Torah) and that is why it would be better to have the universally accepted seal of Jerusalem as the Messianic icon and the wording should be changed in the SoP. If you're wanting to straighten things out, maybe you should start from the ground up and allow all to have a piece of the playing field under a universal banner?
 
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Avodat

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Perhaps I do live in a small world, books, family and little (if any) television.
I do not seek that which divides, only that which can bring greater unity in The Body of Yeshua.
I have a fair level of training, and from many differing schools. I will stand by my statement. If it is not in the SoF it does not exist, if we are honest with our SoF. Now do some teach that which is outside sound doctrine? I'm sure they do, I just don't personally know of it. If it be, why judge all within that group?
Sometimes it better to give grace before we judge what someone else believes.
The main point of this thread is how to accommodate all MJ's in a single forum.

I do not understand your response - it appears somewhat disjointed and irrelevant to my response. :confused:
 
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