Staff and Member discussion thread.

[etZion]

For all that he does here this may be more appropriate:

Lol!

 

[Tishri1]

This is not common to all MJ synagogues ,in fact it may not even be true of most as this is the first I have heard of it and I go to one of the largest

MJ does not segregate Jews and Gentiles, and it is certainly not the intent to make either group feel shame. MJ does accept both groups as one people.

But, some Messianic Judaism synagogues request Gentiles not to wear traditional Jewish dress, such as the Kippah. And if a woman chooses to wear a Tallis, they are asked not to wear a traditionally colored Tallis. And sometimes Gentiles who wear a Tallis are also asked not to wear a traditionally colored Tallis.

So yes, in many Messianic synagogues, the clothing is different. Since Messianic Judaism desires to share the gospel with the Jewish community, some of these things are different for the sake of the gospel. People are asked to adjust for the sake of the gospel and the Jewish people.

With the following, I am just trying to put forth a different perspective of Messianic Judaism.

A quote from Stuart Dauermann


'Rather than superseding the Jewish people, the Church from among the nations joins with them as part of the Commonwealth of Israel. Only in this way can the “dividing wall of hostility” – which supersessionism maintains – be removed. Gentiles are no longer categorically outsiders to the community of God’s people, but neither do they supplant Israel. However if Gentiles were required to obey Torah and live as Jews, one would be perpetuating their categorical exclusion as Gentiles. And it is a major component of the good news as proclaimed by Paul that this former categorical exclusion is over and done with through the work of Messiah!'

 

[pdudgeon]

This is addressed to our admin staff working on this - er - situation. I'm curious as to the criteria for mod intervention. And I know you can't devulge trade secrets. There are times when I feel a thread is going well. Yes there is debate and even a few desk poundings going on, but it's been true to topic and then bam the next post is a MOD HAT saying it needs cleaning up or closed. But another thread is full of derails, discention, outsiders (and insiders) bullying and backbiting. It's a fist fight. And the PMs start flying in frustration by the regulars as to what recourse we have to remove or curtail the offending posters, and yet the thread will go on page after page with no mod intervention. I think this is what happened to break open this Pandora's box.
IMO we need a few good mods in our corner who understand how a Jewish debate goes and who knows the difference between good entertaining Jewish "discussion" and underhanded derail.

i am not an Admin, but i didn't want to let your post slip by. this is exactly the kind of post you should take to the member Services Forum, located here:
http://www.christianforums.com/f883/

just click on "New thread", copy your post, and click on 'submit'.

One very good reason why everyone is seeing fewer mods than you are used to is that we are thin on the ground these days. For that reason we depend heavily indeed upon our members to push the "report" button if there is a problem.
We would all very much like to be more of a presence in the forums than we are, but it's simply a physical impossibility these days.

We do answer PM's (in fact that's my first priority every time i come on to CF) so we are within reach when you need help. hope this helps.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Oh, I beg to differ. My view comes from long observation of many sources, including standard Christian systematic theology resources.

While many may not explicitly state a negative view of the Torah, a là, "The Law is only a curse, and we are saved from The Law", it is an inescapable fact that nearly all Christian perspectives view the Law of God as something that is somehow passé, old hat, nullified, abrogated, or some such variation of terminology. In short, "Law" is set up as an opposite force to "Grace", rather than being perceived as itself a gracious gift from the hand of a loving God. And, of course, "grace trumps law" in every case.

I fail to understand how anyone can say this is not the nearly universal case in Christian theologies of all sorts.

We are a bit off topic here, but you do deserve a bit more of an answer.

Certainly the Law condemns us; if it did not, we would have no need for the Gospel; in such the Law points to the Gospel. God's beloved Son fulfills the Law, He does not negate it.

The Law serves as a mirror in that it shows us our sin; since none can repent without knowing their sin, this is vital to all believers.

The Law also serves as direction signs along our path through life; it shows us God's will so that we might lead a pleasing life in His sight, and walking in His ways.

This is what Scripture teaches; this is what the vast majority of Christianity believe.

The Law only becomes a burden, a "yoke", and impediment, as stumbling block when a person becomes all consumed in the Law to the exclusion of the Gospel.

I find it sad and odd that those who oppose the Law most vehemently are often members of communities which are very "legalistic" in their approach to faith and life.

 

[Tishri1]

I was in the original audience at the MJAA conference and that was not the message of the class. the message was to leave the Torah Positive people alone as you are in fact fighting with them over a small percentage of observance.....it was geared to end the feud between those who have little observance and those who are orthodox in their observance.....it was very well put together and you can't argue with the data, it's pretty sound......

You came to your conclusion because you are looking to prolong this fight in our community, it's all or nothing to you right? Or am I wrong.....I hope I'm wrong

Wow Tish,

You really don't get it. You view that as mudslinging? Really? Against who? Did you really read what I wrote?

I watched the video. I found the on-line study. I did some research. What I found was error. What I saw was bait and switch. I watched the video that everyone oohed and aahed over, praising it for minimizing the responsibilities of the Torah observant to that of irrelevant; 'like fighting over a penny'. It was a smear.

What they didn't tell you is that all they teach is mainstream Christian doctrine with some Hebraic window dressing, not that Hebrew roots is wrong. Its just that the whole presentation was both misleading and erroneous on the most basic level. It teaches that even if you are 'Torah Positive' as they called it, you may as well quit because it doesn't matter. Torah isn't for the New Testament believer. That message is against our SoP in case you missed it. And I was outraged! That video should have never been allowed in this faith group's forum - AND THE STAFF ALL MISSED IT! One of the Mods was even demanding that we watch it. Well I did.

They may as well have said, 'It just like fighting over an inch of dirt', knowing full well that stepping back that inch puts you over the precipice.

That wasn't mudslinging Deb, it wasn't personal. That was Theatre of the Absurd and an appropriate response to that hogwash:"We believe the Law of Moses as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation. While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life..." The makers of the study and the video, post this on their website and paraphrase it in this video.

And you didn't see it?

 

[Qnts2]

Yes that is true but for those taking on the MJ icon it is clear that for MJs the relationship to Torah observance is real even if to differing degrees.....

It's in the sop , perhaps it's not clear?

Actually the sop says:

Anti Torah campaigns-While MJs believe they are saved by grace and faith in Yeshua Messiah, they honor and respect the Torah given by Moses. No campaigning against the Torah

No Messianic Jew is anti-Torah. The majority of Messianic Jews are going to be opposed to One Law teaching. If you mean 'Torah obedience' or One Law or observing the Mosaic law, maybe rephrase the sop. Just saying anti-Torah means something different to many Messianic Jews. Also most Messianic Jews are not as you call 'Torah observant'.

On the other hand, Messianic Jews do discuss to some extent, the Mosaic law, what is to be done in light of the Messiah. This is especially true when there is a new Jewish believers. We do present a range of opinions.
That is typical of Jewish style teaching. In many Jewish homes, education in the home comes in the form of debate where the parent brings up a topic and the child chooses an opinion, and the parent chooses an alternate stance, and the debate begins as a part of learning.

Now, from my experience, Gentiles often do not understand the debate style of learning but that was one of the wonderful things about Messianic Judaism. Jewish people, even Messianic Jewish people did and we could debate in Messianic Judaism. In a room full of Messianic Jews with diverse opinions, we do debate and argue and then we all go out for a nosh afterwards.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

This is addressed to our admin staff working on this - er - situation. I'm curious as to the criteria for mod intervention. And I know you can't devulge trade secrets. There are times when I feel a thread is going well. Yes there is debate and even a few desk poundings going on, but it's been true to topic and then bam the next post is a MOD HAT saying it needs cleaning up or closed. But another thread is full of derails, discention, outsiders (and insiders) bullying and backbiting. It's a fist fight. And the PMs start flying in frustration by the regulars as to what recourse we have to remove or curtail the offending posters, and yet the thread will go on page after page with no mod intervention. I think this is what happened to break open this Pandora's box.
IMO we need a few good mods in our corner who understand how a Jewish debate goes and who knows the difference between good entertaining Jewish "discussion" and underhanded derail.

This is not and excuse, but an explanation...

The forums are many, the threads and posts too numerous to count; staff are few.

There is no way we can be in every forum, every thread, or read every post. Staff actions will normally occur only when a member or members draw something to our attention, either by reporting a post/thread, or through a private message. We don't go hunting for problems as most all of us remain active participating members as well.

I've stated this in other threads here and in other forums as well; if we don't know there is a problem, we can't fix it.

We do do the best that we can.

 

[Lulav]

I was in the original audience at the MJAA conference and that was not the message of the class. the message was to leave the Torah Positive people alone as you are in fact fighting with them over a small percentage of observance.....it was geared to end the feud between those who have little observance and those who are orthodox in their observance.....it was very well put together and you can't argue with the data, it's pretty sound......

You came to your conclusion because you are looking to prolong this fight in our community, it's all or nothing to you right? Or am I wrong.....I hope I'm wrong

I think that there is some confusion here. Tish, you are speaking of what video? You were in the 'original audience' to see what? You say it was at an MJAA conference? Then you are not speaking of the same thing Tal and I have been.

we are speaking of the 'must see' video you stickied to the front of this forum.

Here is your post, follow the link

Torah observance MJ style
http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-4/#post60047944
Must see video on Torah Observance


This video is by Steve Shermett of Congregation Beth Sar Shalom shares data from Doug Friedman and the Association of Messianic Congregations. Not associated with MJAA

Tal and I have been speaking about this video. This Association is AGAINST Torah observance. Tal posted what they believe and it is against our SOP.

I'm not sure what vid you are speaking of but I think we need to be all speaking about the same one before we judge a post and what it is saying.

I know this thread is hard to follow, and you have tons of things to do, but look at the link you posted, that is the Video in question.

 

[anisavta]

i am not an Admin, but i didn't want to let your post slip by. this is exactly the kind of post you should take to the member Services Forum, located here:
http://www.christianforums.com/f883/

just click on "New thread", copy your post, and click on 'submit'.

One very good reason why everyone is seeing fewer mods than you are used to is that we are thin on the ground these days. For that reason we depend heavily indeed upon our members to push the "report" button if there is a problem.
We would all very much like to be more of a presence in the forums than we are, but it's simply a physical impossibility these days.

We do answer PM's (in fact that's my first priority every time i come on to CF) so we are within reach when you need help. hope this helps.

Thank you for responding.
I for one am gun shy about pushing the report button. I try to only use it when I have been personally flamed or I see a poster thoroughly trying to undermine our MJ forum. I've been threatened on several occasions by one or two posters that if I didn't agree with them I would be reported, and from other regulars we kind of know who reports anyone that disagrees with us. They post like an Israeli drives (this from experience!) - one hand on the horn(red button) and one foot on the gas (keyboard). This also goes for the ignore feature. They threaten to report and then they put anyone on ignore that disagrees with them. So they keep the pages coming but only with their cronies.
Okay I'll stop whining now.

 

[mishkan]

Yes that is true but for those taking on the MJ icon it is clear that for MJs the relationship to Torah observance is real even if to differing degrees.....

Well, precisely. My own emphasis is very bottom-line: Is the Torah (and pro-Torah Tanakh) your guide to life? Or is it simply the writings of a bunch of strange people who don't really matter to God, anymore?

You'll never see me criticize anyone for their practice, or lack thereof, of any particular point of Torah. I am well aware that we are all at different points in our journeys. I will merely encourage everyone to learn a little bit more each day. But their fundamental view must be that "Torah matters".

And just to clarify, I am, of course, assuming that my audience here consists of Yeshua disciples. As our Messiah and King, all our study and practice is for the purpose of furthering his mission of tikkun olam, and the restoration of Israel.

It's in the sop , perhaps it's not clear?

It probably is. I'll review it again, and see if I missed something.

 

[anisavta]

...Now, from my experience, Gentiles often do not understand the debate style of learning but that was one of the wonderful things about Messianic Judaism. Jewish people, even Messianic Jewish people did and we could debate in Messianic Judaism. In a room full of Messianic Jews with diverse opinions, we do debate and argue and then we all go out for a nosh afterwards.

You do the Messianic Gentiles a great disservice by your comment. In our Torah study we have had some great debate by our Gentile members. They know how to do it.
Again to classify the Gentile Messianic believers as, "One Law" is disrespectful. It is labeling them with a label they have not chosen. IMO the term "One Law" should be reserved for the GT forum - not here.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I was in the original audience at the MJAA conference and that was not the message of the class. the message was to leave the Torah Positive people alone as you are in fact fighting with them over a small percentage of observance.....it was geared to end the feud between those who have little observance and those who are orthodox in their observance.....it was very well put together and you can't argue with the data, it's pretty sound......

You came to your conclusion because you are looking to prolong this fight in our community, it's all or nothing to you right? Or am I wrong.....I hope I'm wrong

The conclusion of the matter was?

 

[SAM Wis]

We are a bit off topic here, but you do deserve a bit more of an answer.

Certainly the Law condemns us; if it did not, we would have no need for the Gospel; in such the Law points to the Gospel. God's beloved Son fulfills the Law, He does not negate it.

The Law serves as a mirror in that it shows us our sin; since none can repent without knowing their sin, this is vital to all believers.

The Law also serves as direction signs along our path through life; it shows us God's will so that we might lead a pleasing life in His sight, and walking in His ways.

This is what Scripture teaches; this is what the vast majority of Christianity believe.

The Law only becomes a burden, a "yoke", and impediment, as stumbling block when a person becomes all consumed in the Law to the exclusion of the Gospel.

I find it sad and odd that those who oppose the Law most vehemently are often members of communities which are very "legalistic" in their approach to faith and life.

I have been preparing a response, and as others have said, it is nearly past time to be appropriate!

I saw this post, which troubles me anew. I don't think the original post was off topic, but this one is delivering a positional/doctrinal stance. This statement (below) in particular, is a frequent kind of response that comes back in many discussions with those who have not studied from a Hebraic viewpoint. It seems to again, demonstrate a fear that any effort to be obedient to our Father's righteous teachings is potentially dangerous. I don't think any one of mature belief would argue that an inappropriate dwelling on the "Law" would be destructive, but how often have you heard people comment on the inappropriate dwelling on "grace" and the danger of antinomianism?

The Law only becomes a burden, a "yoke", and impediment, as stumbling block when a person becomes all consumed in the Law to the exclusion of the Gospel.

In a belated response to Sacerdote saying he wasn't aware of any adversarial attitudes toward Torah; I will add my two cents worth here to the other thoughtful responses. I note, too, that the description of the "two different gods" of Old and New Testament fallacy is our heritage from Marcion, not from Scripture.

I was never conscious either of any adversarial stance toward Judaism or Jews in particular throughout my many years in the Lutheran church. Nor do I ever recall anyone speaking against Jews or Judaism. (I DO recall the stereotype being noted that Jewish people can be rich and aggressive but it wasn't made with much more than a comment, not overt hostility.)

It doesn't have to be something personal or even in conscious awareness. Often, it isn’t.

However, when examining the fabric and expression of faith more closely, it comes into view.

I think it is clear to us all that Yeshua/Jesus is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, and that His family lineage is of Judah, and thus Israel.

I think it is clear that He grew up in a Jewish household, and learned and taught the Torah.

His followers/talmudim were primarily Galilean with one person, Judas, from elsewhere, probably southern area.

All those who received the Spirit at Pentecost/Shavuot were of Israel and present because of the Feast.

Those who followed Yeshua/Jesus were considered a sect within Judaism and this was true for many years. It began to change with the influx of Gentiles some years later.

In several places throughout the Brit Chadasha/NT it is clearly stated that Yeshua did NOT come to abolish the Torah; that many Jews believed in Him, that they were all zealous for the Torah.

Since the days of the First Century followers who were all zealous for the Torah, the church has taken different directions. It has incorporated other "religious" traditions and patterns into what is written in the Scriptures. This is not just opinion. It is fact, and makes for interesting if sad, study.

Fast forward to today:

The loudest cry that would indicate adversarial perceptions is that the Torah of our God, YHWH, is no longer applicable, done away with, moot. We are free from the law! (not realizing that there is a Law of YHWH, His righteous teachings, as well as the law of sin and death, which IS what we are free from in Yeshua.)
For those of us who have come to understand that the entire Word of God remains applicable for today, we have a hard time seeing how the same Torah/Law/Righteous Teachings that our Father says are for our good could possibly become irrelevant and a bondage or burden, as is commonly understood.
The psalmists identified the Word in these ways:
Psalm 1 To be meditated on day and night
Psalm 17:4 keeps us from destruction
Psalm 18: 30 refined or a refiner
Psalm 33:4 right
Psalm 33:6 made the heavens and the earth
Psalm 107:20 heals
Psalm 119 goes on and on about the beauty and value and joy of the Word including the well known passage about His Word being a lamp to our feet and a light to our path.
John 1:1 And the Word IS our Messiah, the Alef and Tav/Alpha and Omega, Who doesn’t change..the Lawgiver as well as the Written Word.


(So what is that we are free from? All that is a blessing, for our protection, refining, healing, light?)

Perhaps the second loudest cry would be the very nature of worship practices, rejecting what is proscribed in Scripture: observing Sunday rather than Sabbath, rejecting the definition of food, adding in other holidays and subtracting out the 'holy days" that our Abba directed, and so forth. There are also those who consider that obedience to His commands is a bondage…in light of all that He says the Word is, how can that be?

These are NOT conscious, adversarial positions for someone today, who perhaps has no idea that the fabric of expression of faith they grew up with is in itself a rejection of what was practiced by the earliest followers of Yeshua Messiah. I certainly didn't know then!


And just a short note: to whomever posted the white hat as an alternative for the chaplain...are you aware that this style of hat is fashioned after Dagon priest's headgear, the Philistine/Caananite God, who is often depicted as half fish? This is the same "god" who's head and hands were broken off at the foot of the Ark. Though I appreciate the humor intended, I doubt it is something the chaplain would want to emulate.

 

[Chaplain David]

In a belated response to Sacerdote saying he wasn't aware of any adversarial attitudes toward Torah; I will add my two cents worth here to the other thoughtful responses. I note, too, that the description of the "two different gods" of Old and New Testament fallacy is our heritage from Marcion, not from Scripture.

I was never conscious either of any adversarial stance toward Judaism or Jews in particular throughout my many years in the Lutheran church. Nor do I ever recall anyone speaking against Jews or Judaism. (I DO recall the stereotype being noted that Jewish people can be rich and aggressive but it wasn't made with much more than a comment, not overt hostility.)

It doesn't have to be something personal or even in conscious awareness. Often, it isn’t.

However, when examining the fabric and expression of faith more closely, it comes into view.

I don't think I was as clear as I needed to be. I am aware of adversarial stances/attitudes/actions toward Torah but have not experienced them. I know they exist and one of the things you, and this and the other thread I have is help me learn more about the depth and breadth of this. I will now say something controversial. Please do not take it the wrong way because it is an observation and an attitude. Even if one does not observe the Torah or does so in a minimal fashion, I do not see any reason for negativity against it. It is after all, a part of scripture is it not? But some folks are so centered on what they think is the one and true way, (I call this religious bigotry), that they won't even look at or consider something different than what they accept or believe. Personally, I don't care for and I'll say it a different way this time theological or religious prejudice. It does nothing positive for the Body of Christ IMO. And more specifically in terms of CF, it causes constant strife on the forum and between other people of Faith in Christ Jesus.

And just a short note: to whomever posted the white hat as an alternative for the chaplain...are you aware that this style of hat is fashioned after Dagon priest's headgear, the Philistine/Caananite God, who is often depicted as half fish? This is the same "god" who's head and hands were broken off at the foot of the Ark. Though I appreciate the humor intended, I doubt it is something the chaplain would want to emulate.

I very much liked the Derby. What kinds of hats to Rabbi's wear. Generally our protestant preachers/pastors do not wear hats although some of the revival preachers used to wear them.

We see them being worn mainly by Catholic and Orthodox clergy.

 

[The Templar]

That is a wonderful sentiment brother. However, I was not talking about ignoring others that have a different opinion than mine. In fact, I welcome it. You however, are talking about ignoring a serious breach in the forum rules for the sake of... what? You are a Moderator! Moderate!

What I was addressing was the inability of the staff to recognize anti-Torah propaganda. The example I used THIS TIME was the video you endorsed as 'fact'. From your comments, I take it that your too do not believe that Torah can be observed, much less that it is alright for Torah observant Messianics to even try. That is what 'Rabbi' Steve said in his summation of the study presented in the video. That actual quote, "You can't keep the Law even if you wanted to." was in my post HERE.

My point was and is, that the video itself is anti-Torah and posted on a site that does not even allow that Torah is observable. They said, "While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life..." What is disconcerting is the fact that NO STAFF MEMBER (including you) recognized that this is ANTI-TORAH! Again I don't think it is anything sinister on your part or for that matter, on the part of any of the staff. However, because you failed to see it, I have to ask myself how fair can you be to the Torah observant in this forum if you don't recognize violations of the SoP that are clearly slanted against the Torah observant?

Understand that I don't expect you to be Torah observant. That is your choice. I do however expect for you to be equipped to do your job as a Moderator and recognize violations against the Torah observant. That should be a given, but it's not. Why?

You are correct that we should be tolerant and seek the peace of the forum. I could not agree more. And I pledge to do my part to make that happen. But if you think that you are innocent in this and that you have no room for improvement, then you are not a part of the solution. You are the problem.

I will make you a pact, brother. If you can acknowledge this is a very serious breach of the rules by removing this anti-Torah video, I will do everything in my power to help you in all of your endeavors as a Moderator here. Is that fair enough for you?

Blessings,

Again you are demanding that others within MJ who may have differing views from yours be banned from posting here? What if you were on the other end of your argument?
The video was not posted to be anti-Torah, it was posted to prove the differing positions held by MJ Congregations. We can not pretend that all are of one mind else we exclude many.
What you accuse myself and others of is ignorance, I do not believe this to be proper, fair or true. I do not see this behavior fitting of a brother in the faith. The sad part is, I feel you know it a false attack designed to get someone angry enough to take your side against others thereby robbing them of the equal right to be here and share their view.
As far as "violations against the Torah observant", I have not witnessed one single example of anyone dismissing Torah and teaching others the same on this forum. If the issue is the degree of Torah observance, that is not an issue for here. The level of Torah observance is an issue between the believer and God, not for open debate and attack on an open forum.
The difference is that some realize the two schools and have chosen to be more tolerant of the differing opinions as opposed to others who wish to deny access and attack at every opportunity. Where do you stand? Shall I guess?
Also remember, this is a report free thread.
What am I to "MODERATE"? Perhaps you mean "CENSOR"?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Again you are demanding that others within MJ who may have differing views from yours be banned from posting here? What if you were on the other end of your argument?
The video was not posted to be anti-Torah, it was posted to prove the differing positions held by MJ Congregations. We can not pretend that all are of one mind else we exclude many.
What you accuse myself and others of is ignorance, I do not believe this to be proper, fair or true. I do not see this behavior fitting of a brother in the faith. The sad part is, I feel you know it a false attack designed to get someone angry enough to take your side against others thereby robbing them of the equal right to be here and share their view.
As far as "violations against the Torah observant", I have not witnessed one single example of anyone dismissing Torah and teaching others the same on this forum. If the issue is the degree of Torah observance, that is not an issue for here. The level of Torah observance is an issue between the believer and God, not for open debate and attack on an open forum.
The difference is that some realize the two schools and have chosen to be more tolerant of the differing opinions as opposed to others who wish to deny access and attack at every opportunity. Where do you stand? Shall I guess?
Also remember, this is a report free thread.
What am I to "MODERATE"? Perhaps you mean "CENSOR"?

I'm surprised that people think that video I posted I think was anti Torah. The conclusion is there isn't much difference.

What someone have to do? Make a confession publically in regards to Torah.

 

[The Templar]

Please do not take this the wrong way, I am trying desperately to "hear" this post in a positive light. One can be "fair and impartial" without ignoring differences.

I am a member of a wonderfully positive forum, that even in the intense fellowship areas, there is no finger pointing, rude dissention and such that we often find here on CF. It is a Christian forum, and the thrust is that we work positively together to try and understand where each poster is coming from.

Example:

Poster A says something that could come off as inflamatory, and the poster after says "OK, I'm trying to understand your post but am coming up empty. What do you mean by _____? Could you please go into depth a bit so I better understand your position?"

Or even IRL, an example would be someone cutting in line in front of you, or cutting you off in traffic. You choose how you react. Are you assuming the negative by how they acted (flipping them off, berating them from behind your wheel), or could there be something else going on, and you choose to respond positively? ("ah, there is someone behind this person bullying them in the left lane and they came in front of me to avoid an accident" or "ah, that exit ramp WAS awfully short..."

However, it is us who have to choose to be reactionary ("no! I do not like this!!") or working through it positively ("I enjoy reading your posts though we disagree.")


I LOVE this forum. I would love to see it transform in a more positive, workable way where we too have a safe haven where we don't feel accused and persecuted all the time and can go here to lick our wounds a bit and still hash things out.


With the various ages, personalities and cultural demographic we have - and how fast threads like these move, it is easy for there to be misunderstandings.

I have seen a couple in just the day I wasn't posting, and was getting caught up. sometimes it takes hours to get a thoughtful post on some content shared 6 pages back to get written and posted. In so doing, the poster who took a while is attacked for reacting negatively to something we agreed 2 pages ago not to discuss and move on with. Well, they were writing their post, how could they know we already agreed to not talk about it any more?

Maybe it ocurrs to me a little more at the moment because i am constantly mediating arguments between two children who are 18 months apart- Often times it is simply one's perceived idea of how the other is interacting with you, vs what has actually happened.

Assign Positive Intent: More On How To Handle Sibling Rivalry


I really love how Pastor Lutton puts it here:

Feeling Good, Acting Good — AOLFF


Yes, this is about parenting- however, it is just as much about how we should relate to others on forums. It is a whole other environment where people treat each other positively rather than negatively and punitively all the time.

I see this as a wholly workable solution, though it would certainly have kinks to iron out, and every poster would need a little help to see it happen. But, it could be done. It's not a pie in the sky solution, nor a "let's make another pidgeon hole" solution either.

Interesting and noted, except you should have also quoted the loving post this was in response to... to be fair.

 

[anisavta]

The sad part is, I feel you know it a false attack designed to get someone angry enough to take your side against others thereby robbing them of the equal right to be here and share their view.
This is not just "his side". Your accusations are not correct.
As far as "violations against the Torah observant", I have not witnessed one single example of anyone dismissing Torah and teaching others the same on this forum. If the issue is the degree of Torah observance, that is not an issue for here. The level of Torah observance is an issue between the believer and God, not for open debate and attack on an open forum.
Are you sure you're talking about MJ? I haven't seen you here except a few times and I frequent this forum almost every day. You are not one of our regulars. Only those who do not want anything to do with Torah are the ones who come here in attack mode. And isn't open debate within the realm of respect what we are working towards?
The difference is that some realize the two schools and have chosen to be more tolerant of the differing opinions as opposed to others who wish to deny access and attack at every opportunity. Where do you stand? Shall I guess? This is close to a flame sir.
Also remember, this is a report free thread.
What am I to "MODERATE"? Perhaps you mean "CENSOR"?

I'm really having trouble with your venomous responses. I'm sure if you toned down your accusations and approached this thread as one wanting to see solutions rather than arguments, we'd all have a better dialog. As a Mod - do you handle all your posts this way?

 

[The Templar]

Oh, I beg to differ. My view comes from long observation of many sources, including standard Christian systematic theology resources.

While many may not explicitly state a negative view of the Torah, a là, "The Law is only a curse, and we are saved from The Law", it is an inescapable fact that nearly all Christian perspectives view the Law of God as something that is somehow passé, old hat, nullified, abrogated, or some such variation of terminology. In short, "Law" is set up as an opposite force to "Grace", rather than being perceived as itself a gracious gift from the hand of a loving God. And, of course, "grace trumps law" in every case.

I fail to understand how anyone can say this is not the nearly universal case in Christian theologies of all sorts.

I must agree with Bro. Mark, I also am not aware of a "Mainstream Denomination" holding to this teaching. Can you provide SoF's to support this?

 

[anisavta]

I have a question for you Templar - are you here as a moderator or a forum poster?