Staff and Member discussion thread.

[anisavta]

A new day with new possibilities. It's good to be hear with you. I have some reading to catch up on but it's a good day for that. It's a little rainy so I started a nice fire and am drinking a wonderful cup of coffee. Now I will pray to open this day's activities. If someone would like to pray a Messianic Jewish prayer as well that would be lovely.


Heavenly Father,

Thank you for everything you do in our lives. I pray the very best for us to day here on CF in the MJ forums and that we make positive strides and use our effort and abilities to better get along, better understand each other, better fellowship together, and better learn from each other. I pray that this thread and our interaction will lead to the best Messianic Jewish Forum ever and the best human relations as well. I also pray that you enable us to better see your will for us and give us the strength and motivation to carry it out. Thank you Father for all of the blessings in our lives. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.

Staff Members Participating in Report Free Thread:

Tishri1 - Christian Forums Administrator
Pdudgeon - CF Forum Supervisor Trainee
Angeldove97 - CF Moderator on Standby
Sacerdote - Forum Chaplain (1 of 2)

Omein!

 

[mishkan]

There are some who call themselves Christian that do seem to view the Torah the way in which you stated; some even seem to have grown to hate it.

For the vast majority of Christians of all denominations, and for the most part, within the Denominations and Churches, it's my experience that this is not the case.

Such observances and practices are viewed as pious belief/pious practice; at the very least; adiaphora.

That being said, those who are zealously anti-Torah are like all "zealots" in that they squawk the loudest; so when one reads their posts, it is very understandable that one may perceive that such is a majority view. Rest assured that they are in the minority.

Oh, I beg to differ. My view comes from long observation of many sources, including standard Christian systematic theology resources.

While many may not explicitly state a negative view of the Torah, a là, "The Law is only a curse, and we are saved from The Law", it is an inescapable fact that nearly all Christian perspectives view the Law of God as something that is somehow passé, old hat, nullified, abrogated, or some such variation of terminology. In short, "Law" is set up as an opposite force to "Grace", rather than being perceived as itself a gracious gift from the hand of a loving God. And, of course, "grace trumps law" in every case.

I fail to understand how anyone can say this is not the nearly universal case in Christian theologies of all sorts.

 

[anisavta]

I have seen a couple in just the day I wasn't posting, and was getting caught up. sometimes it takes hours to get a thoughtful post on some content shared 6 pages back to get written and posted. In so doing, the poster who took a while is attacked for reacting negatively to something we agreed 2 pages ago not to discuss and move on with. Well, they were writing their post, how could they know we already agreed to not talk about it any more?

My daughter belongs to a forum like you mentioned. Although the posters come from various points of theology, they have learned to respect each other. Also the mods are on top of the discussions and quick to intervene when necessary. They don't have to wait until everyone is PMing each other to start a lynch mob before a mod steps in to address a disruptive poster.
As far as posts moving at a fast pace and being left in the dust...
There are times I'll retire for the night with a great response or even retort but by morning the party has moved into an entirely different building let alone room and I know my response would not be relevent and or disruptive. Better to let it go and move on or step away altogether. Let's face it - what I have to say is mostly opinion anyway. It's definitely not worthy of an addition to oral Torah!

 

[Henaynei]

I do not feel an adversarial relationship with the Torah nor have I heard it mentioned among those with whom I associate. Can you refer me to scripture that supports what is stated in sentence 1?

Also, what is meant by the second part of the statement above labeled sentence 2?

None of my fellow ministers or any other Christians that I know feel this way. But I am not the fountain of all truth or the holder of all knowledge lol (wish I was sometimes) that would be God. So I'm asking for some support and clarification.

You and your fellows talk about Torah a lot?
There are many things you will never hear Or "hear" unless you are Jewish or Messianic.

Two people sitting in the same service will hear two different things in the message. One hears how G-d has been faithful to preserve the believers through trials and many tribulations as the preacher teaches them about the many miracles G-d wrought to deliver the church in the wilderness. The other person hears supersessionism.

These judgments and the many which are similar, from our POV, are Not based on a correct understanding of scripture, or we'd not be in opposition to them

And, THIS is a point worth pondering to understand us better, while amongst themselves Christians don't talk negatively about Torah or the T'NaKh. But when they, especially Christian leadership, talk to Messianics, especially those who used to attend their church or who are talking to a member of their church about becoming Messianic, quite often we have heard the following stated vociferously. "Why are you taking a step backwards from Grace and placing yourself under the dead Law that only brings death." Or pronouncements of the vilest kind of heresy, "How can you turn your back on Jesus and try to recrucify Him!"

If each of us who have had to endure similar accusations as these and have lovingly Tried to explain had $5 for each time and pooled our resources we'd have enough $$ to build a synagogue more grand than the Great Synagogue in Jerusalem and still have enough NI shekels to host one grand and glorious city wide celebration shindig!

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[anisavta]

This is addressed to our admin staff working on this - er - situation. I'm curious as to the criteria for mod intervention. And I know you can't devulge trade secrets. There are times when I feel a thread is going well. Yes there is debate and even a few desk poundings going on, but it's been true to topic and then bam the next post is a MOD HAT saying it needs cleaning up or closed. But another thread is full of derails, discention, outsiders (and insiders) bullying and backbiting. It's a fist fight. And the PMs start flying in frustration by the regulars as to what recourse we have to remove or curtail the offending posters, and yet the thread will go on page after page with no mod intervention. I think this is what happened to break open this Pandora's box.
IMO we need a few good mods in our corner who understand how a Jewish debate goes and who knows the difference between good entertaining Jewish "discussion" and underhanded derail.

 

[anisavta]

These judgments, from our POV, are Not based on a correct understanding of scripture, or we'd not be in opposition to them

And, THIS is a point worth pondering to understand us better, while amongst themselves Christians don't talk negatively about Torah or the T'NaKh, when they, especially Christian leadership, talk to Messianics, especially those who used to attend their church or who are talking to a member of their church about becoming Messianic, quite often we have heard the following stated vociferously. "Why are you taking a step backwards from Grace and placing yourself under the dead Law that only brings death." Or pronouncements of the vilest kind of heresy, "How can you turn your back on Jesus and try to recrucify Him!"

If each of us who have had to endure similar accusations as these and have lovingly Tried to explain had $5 for each time and pooled our resources we'd have enough $$ to build a synagogue more grand than the Great Synagogue in Jerusalem and still have enough NI shekels to host one grand and glorious city wide celebration shindig!

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

I couldn't agree with you more!!

 

[etZion]

Oh, I beg to differ. My view comes from long observation of many sources, including standard Christian systematic theology resources.

While many may not explicitly state a negative view of the Torah, a là, "The Law is only a curse, and we are saved from The Law", it is an inescapable fact that nearly all Christian perspectives view the Law of God as something that is somehow passé, old hat, nullified, abrogated, or some such variation of terminology. In short, "Law" is set up as an opposite force to "Grace", rather than being perceived as itself a gracious gift from the hand of a loving God. And, of course, "grace trumps law" in every case.

I fail to understand how anyone can say this is not the nearly universal case in Christian theologies of all sorts.

Agreed, there are others that put it in a less anti-law perspective, but the result is still anti-law.

Example:
"As a believer, if you want to keep certain aspects of the Law that is fine, and if you don't that is also fine."

Which of course renders the Law as having no authority in the life of a believer, it becomes more of a preference of choice, but yields no purpose or results, and practically makes one ask, then why?

Example:
"You can keep certain aspects of the Law, but you should not teach others to keep the Law as if they should also obey."

In other words, you doing the Law may be used for some random purpose, like deceiving a Jew to act like you practice the same things they do, and then insert a random Paul quote for distortion... Concerning the purpose of obedience in the life of a believer, you are teaching bondage and being judgmental.

These are just two examples of many I have heard, put in a much gentler way, but still uphold a no-more-law perspective.

 

[Chaplain David]

This is addressed to our admin staff working on this - er - situation. I'm curious as to the criteria for mod intervention. And I know you can't devulge trade secrets. There are times when I feel a thread is going well. Yes there is debate and even a few desk poundings going on, but it's been true to topic and then bam the next post is a MOD HAT saying it needs cleaning up or closed. But another thread is full of derails, discention, outsiders (and insiders) bullying and backbiting. It's a fist fight. And the PMs start flying in frustration by the regulars as to what recourse we have to remove or curtail the offending posters, and yet the thread will go on page after page with no mod intervention. I think this is what happened to break open this Pandora's box.
IMO we need a few good mods in our corner who understand how a Jewish debate goes and who knows the difference between good entertaining Jewish "discussion" and underhanded derail.

Although I've worked as a mod and senior mod here and admin and owner on other forums, technical mod/super/admin questions are best answered by the other staff members here: Tishri1 (Debi), Mark, Pam, or Tanya. If we miss this post, please just remind us again. Thank you and Shalom.

 

[Avodat]

Thanks Mark. If I would have been on the ball I would have seen your Mod Hat sooner. I apologize for that.

You may have missed it because the original was mine (it actually says MOoD HAT) and Mark replied quoting my MOoD HAT and adding in his own text to make it 'official'.

 

[Chaplain David]

You may have missed it because the original was mine (it actually says MOoD HAT) and Mark replied quoting my MOoD HAT and adding in his own text to make it 'official'.

They keep promising me a Chaplains Hat but it hasn't arrived yet lol.

 

[anisavta]

Oh! You mean THAT kind of Chaplain's hat. Sorry!

Back to OP!

 

[mishkan]

Agreed, there are others that put it in a less anti-law perspective, but the result is still anti-law.

Example:
"As a believer, if you want to keep certain aspects of the Law that is fine, and if you don't that is also fine."

Which of course renders the Law as having no authority in the life of a believer, it becomes more of a preference of choice, but yields no purpose or results, and practically makes one ask, then why?

Example:
"You can keep certain aspects of the Law, but you should not teach others to keep the Law as if they should also obey."

In other words, you doing the Law may be used for some random purpose, like deceiving a Jew to act like you practice the same things they do, and then insert a random Paul quote for distortion... Concerning the purpose of obedience in the life of a believer, you are teaching bondage and being judgmental.

These are just two examples of many I have heard, put in a much gentler way, but still uphold a no-more-law perspective.

Exactly. You will rarely find anyone explicitly state, "I don't believe the Law has any use for us today" (thought I have heard that). It is more common to hear euphemisms where the Torah is implicitly set at odds with particular Christian teachings.

 

[Tishri1]

Agreed, as far as that goes.

But don't forget that we also have numerous Jews here maintaining that the Torah path is eliminated for them, as well.

I find the issue to fall out, not on ethnic lines, but on theological. If one accepts the Christian assumption that followers of Messiah have no relationship with the Torah, then one lives and believes one way. If one accepts that Torah was given for our Good, as the Torah itself declares, then one lives and believes another way.

This is why I believe there is a clear and simple demarcation between (Hebrew)-Christianity and Messianic Judaism. There are other differences, as well, but this seems to be the point of contention that keeps coming up.

Yes that is true but for those taking on the MJ icon it is clear that for MJs the relationship to Torah observance is real even if to differing degrees.....

It's in the sop , perhaps it's not clear?

 

[Tishri1]

OK I admit that I'm a little slow sometimes and I am terrible remembering names (but I'm smart) lol. Who is Henry?

That was Henny

 

[pdudgeon]

WHEW! caught up on reading posts again.

first, thank you for the rep comments you left me, and thanks to several of you for joining me in prayer last night.

prayer is something i firmly believe in, especially when i need to know how to proceed. So i'd like to encourage anyone who feels so led, to join in praying for this forum, for all it's members, and for courage to move ahead together, as we trust G_d to guide us.

please forgive me if i have sounded impatient or condescending towards any of you..it was unintentionally done.

I'm reading and listening, and I think we are making progress--I can see the difference between the first day's post and today's posts, which are more open and more specific. Keep these posts comming!

 

[anisavta]

My experience is "I don't need the law anymore. I have Jesus." Then the launch into the law being a taskmaster that points to sin and now that sin has been crucified, the law can be disguarded.

 

[Tishri1]

With respect we've heard that before. I think that, when you literally plead with Mods to do something to solve the problems and you actually go out of your way to come up with a working answer, and what is suggested is a minor matter for them - and it is neither rejected nor accepted or, on one occasion, you are told to tell someone else, I see no point in suggesting anything anymore. It might have been yesterday, but it breeds no confidence in anything actually happening today.

Ok no problem

 

[Lulav]

There are some who call themselves Christian that do seem to view the Torah the way in which you stated; some even seem to have grown to hate it.

For the vast majority of Christians of all denominations, and for the most part, within the Denominations and Churches, it's my experience that this is not the case.

Such observances and practices are viewed as pious belief/pious practice; at the very least; adiaphora.

That being said, those who are zealously anti-Torah are like all "zealots" in that they squawk the loudest; so when one reads their posts, it is very understandable that one may perceive that such is a majority view. Rest assured that they are in the minority.

I don't think it's so much the loud squawking, as it's the majority who flock to religious forums. While that may be what you've seen from your experiences Mark we need to take into consideration that meeting people in person from various denominations, you will not get true feelings spoken like you do on an anonymous forum. People tend to speak their true feelings here because they don't have to worry about what the Priest or pastor may say, or what their family may say or even their community. It's like a confessional, things said there would not be said elsewhere.

A forum is sort of like talking to some that have been given a dose of sodium thiopental. Or, dare I say, a glass of wine, or two? It loosens the tongue and it happens to all of us if we aren't constantly monitoring our typing.

So what may be heard in RL is not the whole story, but what one hears here may be closer to the truth.

That said, I would like to give an example of what we have seen on these very forums and why some of us are so reactive. This is from a person that has come into our corner under the auspices of 'learning about MJ' but in reality has used the occasion to try to sidle up to us and find information to go elsewhere to trash not just us, but the Torah of G-d.

I don't believe those 613 commandments are God-breathed. it is man that embellished such redundancy and nonsensical "poundings" of oppression and distortion.

Reading the list of commandments is shriveling to one's spirit.

Speaking of the Torah as the 'yoke'

Jesus was telling those burdened under this soul-killing nonsense to come to Him for relief from these shackles and chains.

Jesus completed what God required. Jesus also violated some of those commandments

And this is just one example, but it is one of many. It comes down to almost dividing Jesus and G-d as two different G-ds, which I have seen in the extreme while an Admin on another board. There are those that believe in the "God of the New Testament" but not the "God of the Old Testament". And all the verses showing they are one and the same were to no effect.

Oh, I beg to differ. My view comes from long observation of many sources, including standard Christian systematic theology resources.

While many may not explicitly state a negative view of the Torah, a là, "The Law is only a curse, and we are saved from The Law", it is an inescapable fact that nearly all Christian perspectives view the Law of God as something that is somehow passé, old hat, nullified, abrogated, or some such variation of terminology. In short, "Law" is set up as an opposite force to "Grace", rather than being perceived as itself a gracious gift from the hand of a loving God. And, of course, "grace trumps law" in every case.

I fail to understand how anyone can say this is not the nearly universal case in Christian theologies of all sorts.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

They keep promising me a Chaplains Hat but it hasn't arrived yet lol.

Oh! You mean THAT kind of Chaplain's hat. Sorry!

Back to OP!

For all that he does here this may be more appropriate:

 

[etZion]

And this is just one example, but it is one of many. It comes down to almost dividing Jesus and G-d as two different G-ds, which I have seen in the extreme while an Admin on another board. There are those that believe in the "God of the New Testament" but not the "God of the Old Testament". And all the verses showing they are one and the same were to no effect.

Yup, this is the 'God vs Jesus' theologies... I have seen this many times. Even from many brethren who have no idea they are proposing such.