Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Tishri1]

Nothing because we are covered by the blood of Yeshua but we are to look to the Law for guidance in life. It is that by which we know what is wrong and what is right. It is honoring of God to try to be obedient to that which He commanded but for those things which Yeshua's death and resurrection changed. There's a balance between grace and the onus of responsibility to show forth fruit. We can't cheapen God's grace in either direction, so to speak. So, in a way, his statement is correct and in a way so is yours. At least that's how I see it.

I agree with this too.

 

[Tishri1]

If all it takes to go and subvert a forum is an icon change, CF is hopless.

What if we all did the same thing?

It's not that simple, the posts in the forum cannot teach or debate against the beliefs of that congregation either so there you have your safe haven too.

Those who are Hebrew Christian may be able to post in fellowship but cannot teach against Torah, or those who are non trinitarian can post and teach Torah just not against the Trinity(those are just two examples)

 

[anisavta]

Yes that would be one solution, but only if we are all behind that. I don't want any of our subforums seen as ghettos, that is not our vision for having them.

This is a specific thread on how to create a balanced forum. When posters begin their pet doctrines, Law, One Law, Torah keeping etc, it seems to become a free for all. They can either find or start another thread to address their platform and leave this one free for the OP subject.

 

[Tishri1]

If you are talking about me. I believe that a Gentile who feels called to keep the law, should. But I also believe many Gentiles are not called to keeping the law, and they should follow whatever calling they have received.

What I have objected to is the insistence that anyone who is not 'keeping the law' is somehow wrong, immature, 'Grace only Christian', or whatever else.

Apart from the name calling,which staff is in agreement that this is wrong, where have others here said folks are wrong,or immature for holding less of an observance or no observance to Torah? I've been looking for posts like that.?

 

[psalms 91]

Greetings;

I am not exactly certain of the sentiments intended to be expressed here?
It appears to be a mixed message to me.

I have bolded the sentences in question here. No, I don't think the answer to the questions may be as obvious as indicated.

Fulfill: in western understanding, this word is used as it is here, with the implied meaning that something is finished, completed, no longer applies.

In Hebraic understanding, to fulfill the Word means to lift it up, to identify or explicate it correctly. To fulfill the Word rather than abolish it, has to do with correctly identifying the true heart and character of our Elohim in an interpretation.

On the other hand, abolishing the Word has to do with offering an interpretation that in some way misrepresents or demeans the heart and character of our Creator.

Our Yeshua completely fulfilled the Word in that His life and actions correctly interpreted the true nature of YHWH. So that we could see and learn; drawing on His Spirit as the only way we could even hope to become more like Him.


The "Law" is the English translation of the word Torah.
The word Torah is Strong's 8451, meaning law, direction, instruction
From the root word, yarah: 3384, meaning to throw, shoot, cast.

The paleo or ancient Hebrew pictographic meaning of both the word Torah, and yarah the root,

confirm that the meaning of this word, translated in such a limited fashion into English is NOT just a law as we might think of it, as in a speeding law, but rather a direction and instruction pointing out the correct direction in which to go.

Rather like the English expression "to hit the mark" as in aiming at a target bull's eye.

So when we honor His Righteous teachings, we are accepting His direction and the way we are to walk, thus hitting the mark of His standard, not our own.

Hattah, one Hebrew word for sin, correspondingly, literally means "to miss the mark."

If we are not honoring His standard, we will not be able to hit the bull's eye, and sometimes may not even be near the target at all!

I suggest a word study on "the way we walk" checking the word "walk" and phrase in the entire Scripture. A picture that is completely in focus and agreement all the way from Genesis to Revelation will appear as I know because I have already done this. (study available on our website)


These sentences indicate a more western or Greek mindset or understanding as opposed to the more functional Hebrew mindset.

Either way, whether we are humbly submitting to His teachings on righteousness OR if we are rebelliously defiant toward them, His righteous teachings ARE affecting us.

Absolutely

 

[Tishri1]

I agree with Tal, he did make a disclaimer that his 'rant' was


We were encouraged, strongly to watch this video, in a way that we all should agree with what it said.

Earlier I had remarked on this group and got shot down. I read their SOF and saw the same thing Tal did, and I said it was against our SOP and was told by the new "Messianic' Mod that:

The TEMPAR:"It is fact."

Lulav:Also the link you posted is from a Messianic from an organization that does not believe we are required to keep Torah, stating that Messiah fulfilled it.

The TEMPAR:This only stands to prove my point, this was not an accustation on my part. It is fact.

The link provided is a Messianic Congregation is it not? Again, my point is proved! This Congregation does not please some so they will rail against it all the while demanding respect from others. Interesting.
Respect, you get that which you give.

To which I said:


----------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems that some are trying to change the fact that Torah was not done away with and upholding Torah in this forum. Now Tish, we have a mod in this conversation that is now sporting the "Torah scroll, I, and some others think this may be a red herring, being that this has been under contention of those having the scroll and not being of same mind as those of keeping Torah. I know that a month ago they were not using the Torah scroll. Now they are here, bashing those who want to keep torah and making accusations like those I highlighted in my post. Why is this allowed?

When asked for their testimony, and we don't have to have anything recognizably personal, just why they see themselves as Messianic now and not a month ago, especially since they are representing the staff, and by carrying the scroll, in turn, some of us. He has also posted, what appears by the CF info, to be an outright lie:


This was a response to Anisavta, he claims to have posted here in the past, yet a look through the whole MJ forum and all I have found outside this here thread is Mod Hats and other mod work, nothing, nothing at all about these 'amazing posts'.

As far as that video, Ani and I were in class with the author of that info(the original guy)and both of us could see the teaching as a way to unite MJs not divide them, your new info puts a spin on the info not intended for his original audience, that is for sure......my question is what do you want? And what would be fair?

Should folks who do not observe Torah to the degree you do have to leave this place? Even if they attend MJ congregations?

Or allow them to stay but give them funny names that they will have to wear so we know they are the ones not observing Torah to the same level?

Or can we simply ask for respect to those who do observe Torah and not teach, or debate against its observance in this place?


This question is for everyone

 

[Tishri1]

Agreed.

Let's stick to the OP people or move on.

Wouldn't want to get reported for derail, would we?

Report free thread here Steve , but we do appreciate staying op thanks you all

 

[Qnts2]

Apart from the name calling,which staff is in agreement that this is wrong, where have others here said folks are wrong,or immature for holding less of an observance or no observance to Torah? I've been looking for posts like that.?

I have seen the sentiment expressed that a person will eventually be led by the Spirit/Ruach to being observant, and others simply have to pray and be 'patient' until the person is led to where everyone else has already reached.

In short form, they have to wait until the person is led to what others have already achieved. At the time I wrote that, I had just read a couple of posts which expressed that sentiment.

 

[Tishri1]

let's look at those last 2 sentences again...


and that will eventually happen. but before that happens, we have to give everyone a chance to 'unpack their bags' so to speak, and get what is bothering them off their chest.

this process is very much like cleaning the dirt out of a scraped knee. It's painful to go swabbing and cleaning around the area, but if we leave the dirt in and just throw a bandage on the top it gives that wound a chance to fester, fill with puss, and get infected. then we have an even greater damage to the area and a greater mess to clean up with the chance of permanent scarring.

So yes, there will be some posts in this thread that can get a bit hot or pointed.
BUT (and that's a huge but..) this is also the time we get to learn what it means to be brothers and sisters in Christ, and to learn how to love and forgive and be patient and caring with each other.

How to do that? Start by posting 'I'm sorry that you feel that way", I'm sorry that those things were said to you", etc. and think how you would have felt if the same had been done to you.

Maybe it has been said or done to you, in which case you can honestly say "I know how you feel", or say 'thanks for explaining that." This is vastly different from saying anyone was right or wrong, and we aren't asking or expecting that kind of admission from anyone now.

What we are asking for is that you be as kind and considerate and patient as those gifts of the Spirit are found in you. Take Jesus as your model in this

This is not a matter of who is right or who is wrong, but it's all about treating our fellow members who are Messianic and have a right to be here in this forum well, and not badly.

Have to say I just love our staff

 

[Tishri1]

Love your new picture.

Yes, I get what you mean but maybe this is needed to get some things out that have been hidden. I see two sides here and my suggestion is that we have two forums.

1. Mainstream Messianic Judaism for Jews that believe in Yeshua as Messiah and Gentiles who have a Orpah Calling.

2. Messianic Remnant- Followers of first century Judaism as defined by Yeshua for Jewish believers and Gentiles with a Ruth calling.

Remember all the times past we segregated our group...every time it killed the forums

 

[Qnts2]

As far as that video, Ani and I were in class with the author of that info(the original guy)and both of us could see the teaching as a way to unite MJs not divide them, your new info puts a spin on the info not intended for his original audience, that is for sure......my question is what do you want? And what would be fair?

Should folks who do not observe Torah to the degree you do have to leave this place? Even if they attend MJ congregations?

Or allow them to stay but give them funny names that they will have to wear so we know they are the ones not observing Torah to the same level?

Or can we simply ask for respect to those who do observe Torah and not teach, or debate against its observance in this place?


This question is for everyone

Don't you think that telling Messianic Jews, who grew up in a Torah based belief, to not teach Torah, or to not tell about their childhood, or their Jewish upbringing is a form of belittling our Jewish education and upbringing.

Messianic Judaism was and is a Jewish expression of our belief in Yeshua. It was where Jewish people could be Jewish without fear. Somehow, it seems entirely wrong to silence Messianic Jews on a forum titled Messianic Judaism.


From a Jewish perspective, we grew up in Judaism, based on the Torah. Almost all Jewish people have experienced the Mosaic law or had some level of formal Judaism training in the Torah. For those who were Bar Mitzvah, at the age of 13, they are considered sons of the law, meaning we had reached maturity in sufficient knowledge to be fully responsible for keeping the law.

So, Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law.

For people who were raised in Christianity, the law might be what stands out in Messianic Judaism, as a visible difference between Messianic Judaism and Christianity, but Messianic Judaism is really not about keeping the law. That is a cultural Jewish aspect about Messianic Judaism. Not the real central belief system, other then Messianic Judaism is culturally Jewish.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Don't you think that telling Messianic Jews, who grew up in a Torah based belief, to not teach Torah, or to not tell about their childhood, or their Jewish upbringing is a form of belittling our Jewish education and upbringing.

Messianic Judaism was and is a Jewish expression of our belief in Yeshua. It was where Jewish people could be Jewish without fear. Somehow, it seems entirely wrong to silence Messianic Jews on a forum titled Messianic Judaism.


From a Jewish perspective, we grew up in Judaism, based on the Torah. Almost all Jewish people have experienced the Mosaic law or had some level of formal Judaism training in the Torah. For those who were Bar Mitzvah, at the age of 13, they are considered sons of the law, meaning we had reached maturity in sufficient knowledge to be fully responsible for keeping the law.

So, Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law.

For people who were raised in Christianity, the law might be what stands out in Messianic Judaism, as a visible difference between Messianic Judaism and Christianity, but Messianic Judaism is really not about keeping the law. That is a cultural Jewish aspect about Messianic Judaism. Not the real central belief system, other then Messianic Judaism is culturally Jewish.

I agree. I think and positive what you said is MJAA. As I said before there are splits because of different doctrine beliefs.

 

[Qnts2]

Actually, I think they are in the third group. Until they are convinced of Yeshua's messiahship, they are judged on how they follow YHWH according to Torah.

Can a Jewish person without Yeshua, be saved, if they are sincerely dedicated to keeping the law?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Can a Jewish person without Yeshua, be saved, if they are sincerely dedicated to keeping the law?

Romans 2:6 God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[anisavta]

From a Jewish perspective, we grew up in Judaism, based on the Torah. Almost all Jewish people have experienced the Mosaic law or had some level of formal Judaism training in the Torah. For those who were Bar Mitzvah, at the age of 13, they are considered sons of the law, meaning we had reached maturity in sufficient knowledge to be fully responsible for keeping the law.

So, Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law.

No Qnts not all Jews were brought up with formal Judaism training in Torah. And even if they were bar and bat mitzvah, how many kids even cared about learning the law. They just wanted to get through their portions and speeches so they could get to the party.
And I fail to see how Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law based on your previous paragraph. It no make sense. :o

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

No Qnts not all Jews were brought up with formal Judaism training in Torah. And even if they were bar and bat mitzvah, how many kids even cared about learning the law. They just wanted to get through their portions and speeches so they could get to the party.
And I fail to see how Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law based on your previous paragraph. It no make sense. :o

I think you're on to something. Most Jews aren't raised in orthodox Judaism, so you have a point. I posted something today that would relate to your comment. Most Jews are raised in something though. All the Jews I know in my congregation weren't raised 'at a level' as orthodox let's say. But what's common for the most part is we were raised in common traditions. As I said before being raised Jewish is ethnic, religious and cultural all wrapped up and doesn't depend on your level of Torah of observance. Even the orthodox aren't 'you got to keep the Law like us and if you don't shame on you'.

 

[Tishri1]

Okay, so what words would you use besides "slanderous lies"? You see, what CM said was true. And the words "slanderous lies" come from a place of persecution and whether one is Jew or Gentile, that place is very painful. Can't we also recognize that people have pain and that pain plays out in our word usage?

You didn't use those words belle, but if you had I would have told you to use words that do not accuse others or flame others

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

No Qnts not all Jews were brought up with formal Judaism training in Torah. And even if they were bar and bat mitzvah, how many kids even cared about learning the law. They just wanted to get through their portions and speeches so they could get to the party.
And I fail to see how Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law based on your previous paragraph. It no make sense. :o

I mean are people wanting to be orthodox Messianic Judaism?

 

[Qnts2]

You do the Messianic Gentiles a great disservice by your comment. In our Torah study we have had some great debate by our Gentile members. They know how to do it.
Again to classify the Gentile Messianic believers as, "One Law" is disrespectful. It is labeling them with a label they have not chosen. IMO the term "One Law" should be reserved for the GT forum - not here.

I have participated on enough forums, where the Messianic Jews get into debates (we are having fun), and the Gentile participants get upset at what they think of as harsh, or argumentative. I usually have to tone down what I would do in a Jewish only board. So, when I say Gentiles are not comfortable with the Jewish style of debate for learning, I am still confident that is a generally true statement. If you are the exception, that might not be true for you.

As far as One Law, do you believe that the Mosaic law applies to Gentiles, one law for Jews and Gentiles?

The following is from Wiki with a couple of modifications:

One Law theology acknowledges the distinction between Ekklesia and Israel in principle, but in practicality believes gentile believers are considered to come under the Mosaic covenant, making observance obligatory. This theology actually has a long line of various sects that have popped in and out of history.

 

[Tishri1]

Really? Thanks. Now how about telling me what I said wrong Sis, IYHE, instead of inching toward condescension. I'm being open minded here.

Exactly how does my post require prayer and these do not?:
Originally Posted by talmidim

all these newly minted non-Denom Messianics coming over to save us





Don'tcha just appreciate the condescension and love in these posts also?

​

Belle your starting to strike out and need to stop, if you don't understand a post it's ok to inquire about it with out attacking the poster or goading the poster into a fight(mods do not fight btw, but they will help prevent fights if possible)