Staff and Member discussion thread.

[anisavta]

the truth of the matter is that this is a diverse group. within that group are several different opinions and wants and needs and practices.

what we are trying to do here as staff is to account for all the sheep, round them up, and get their attention. we do this because we don't want any sheep to be lost.

now up to this point all the sheep have been doing their own thing and eating grass all over the wide expanse of the meadow, so sometimes it takes a while to accomplish the rounding up.

But by G_d's grace we are well supplied with able shepherds and sheep dogs to do the job, so bear with us a while yet and you will see progress happening all over the place.

I am very happy that we have this thread to air grievances and iron out differences. It's needed although I'm afraid it's kind of like herding cats. What I'm having issue with is - like I mentioned earlier as I read the bulk of today's posts starting in the early AM, I found three conversations going on at the same time. There is the OP conversation where posters are trying to work out a solution by airing grievances, defining theology - that sort of thing. Then in another corner we have the ones who are licking wounds and talking about how they've been dun wrong but won't except culpability for their own contributions. And then we have the group in the middle of the room who haven't a clue what's going on in the OP because they have their own "teaching us the right way" discussion going on. This is just another avenue for them to set us straight.
If we could all stop and listen to each other - really listen instead of (and yes this might offend but it's the best word available) whine or hijack the thread, then we'd have this settled in no time.
OK let the bullets rain down!

 

[Steve Petersen]

I am very happy that we have this thread to air grievances and iron out differences. It's needed although I'm afraid it's kind of like herding cats. What I'm having issue with is - like I mentioned earlier as I read the bulk of today's posts starting in the early AM, I found three conversations going on at the same time. There is the OP conversation where posters are trying to work out a solution by airing grievances, defining theology - that sort of thing. Then in another corner we have the ones who are licking wounds and talking about how they've been dun wrong but won't except culpability for their own contributions. And then we have the group in the middle of the room who haven't a clue what's going on in the OP because they have their own "teaching us the right way" discussion going on. This is just another avenue for them to set us straight.
If we could all stop and listen to each other - really listen instead of (and yes this might offend but it's the best word available) whine or hijack the thread, then we'd have this settled in no time.
OK let the bullets rain down!

I'm sorry. What were you saying?

 

[Jerushabelle]

I would disagree. I know many who would agree with what I said who are Messianic Jews.

There are differences between Christianity and Messianic Judaism, although we do agree with the fundamental basics.

Christianity has communion. Messianic Judaism has Passover.
Christianity has Easter. Messianic Judaism has the first fruits wave offering and then the counting of the Omer.
Christianity has Pentacost. Messianic Judaism has Shavuos.

Messianic Judaism says Messiah, not Christ. (Jewish people have been abused in the name of Christ, so the word Christ does not have good connotations). The Jewish people know we are promised the Messiah so Messiah is a Jewish word with a Jewish understanding.

And these are just a few of the differences. There are a lot more. From a Tenakh to NT view, things look different then a NT to OT view.

Come on Sister, you're going to that land of sweeping and bold statements.

MJs do communion. Do they all do communion?....No. Some, like me, do both communion and Passover.
Not all Christians "do" Easter. Some recognize that Jesus/Yeshua's resurrection had nothing whatsoever to do with the goddess of Ishtar and could care less about the attending paraphernalia. Shavuot celebrates the re-accepting of Torah. Pentecost celebrates the birth of the Church by the power of the Holy Spirit. There's something very significant about the sharing of dates between Shavuot and Pentecost. I tend to recognize both holidays simultaneously.

 

[Henaynei]

And now that video has it's own thread and own Sticky too

19th March 2012, 12:48 PM

Torah observance MJ style
http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-4/#post60047944
Must see video on Torah Observance

http://v10.lscache1.googlevideo.com/...70D2C5&key=ck1



I guess this is what we have to agree to, like it or not?

I'm done here.

I've got to agree with Tal and Lulav on this.

There is a huge difference between:
Keeping some of the Law because it is cool and makes one feel good to be able to identify with the Jews and stand out from the Christians - "they are great traditions and I do them when ever I can"
AND
Keeping as much of the Law as one possibly can keep (outside of Israel, in the absence of a Temple or a Jewish theocracy) because G-d said they are to be kept forever.

Messianic Torah Positive folk see that G-d does not change, there was nothing wrong about the Law, and He said the Law was "for all generations." No where does His Word say "until I find a better way." In fact, since He said Both that Yeshua was sacrificed from the foundation of the earth AND long after the foundation of the earth He gave the Law and said the Law was to be kept for all generations, then the coming of Yeshua AND His sacrifice must have no bearing on the viability or status of the Law. The sacrificial system was built to foreshadow Yeshua's sacrifice and looked forward to His sacrifice in faith and anticipation. Just as the sacrifices that were done by the "Jews that believe" for about a century after Yeshua's sacrifice, such as Sha'ul and Messiah's brother among many others who were "all zealous for the Law," and those G-d has said must be started again when the Temple is rebuilt ALL look backward in memorial of His sacrifice.

Be it clearly known that the sacrifice of No animal ever saved anyone! It was the faith that motivated the obedience and faith in G-d's Instructions and promises - i.e. the Sacrifice those sacrifices prefigured, that saved. Just as faith in that Sacrifice and Promise saves today.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Jerushabelle]

But all of those are Torah and have specific Mitzvot pertaining to how G-d said they are to be celebrated. According to 1Jn 3:4 it is sin to violate these Mitzvot. Yet you said, essentially, that if we sin we must have another sacrifice.

Help me understand were you find the authority to pick which Mitzvot you will or will not keep or do.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

From the same chapter of 1 John which is "Dear friends, if our hearts know nothing against us, we have confidence in approaching God; then, whatever we ask for, we receive from him; because we are obeying his commands and doing the things that please him. This is his command: that we are to trust in the person and power of his Son Yeshua the Messiah and to keep loving one another, just as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands remain united with him and he with them. Here is how we know that he remains united with us: by the Spirit whom he gave us"

And as evidence of this, Yeshua said to the rich man when he asked:
"'Rabbi, what good thing should I do in order to have eternal life? He said to him, 'Why are you asking me about good? There is One who is good! But if you want to obtain eternal life, observe the mitzvot.' The man asked him, 'Which ones?' and Yeshua said, 'Don't murder, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't give false testimony, honor father and mother and love your neighbor as yourself.' The young man said to him, 'I have kept all these; where do I still fall short?' Yeshua said to him, 'If you are serious about reaching the goal, go and sell your possessions, give to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come, follow me!'"

I want you to notice something Sister, the rich man clearly knew Torah or about Torah but he still asked "Which ones?" Scripture doesn't indicate if the rich man was Jew or Gentile but the man had the presence of mind to ask "Which ones?". And Yeshua listed out the ones he wanted the man to keep. I myself was shocked to see that the Sabbath was not mentioned in that list which is another reason why I don't jump on anybody for the Sabbath day they choose to rest. Additionally, the festivals aren't listed. So those are the only laws we need to follow? Well, that's what Yeshua said. And then I thought, well He followed up with "Then come, follow me!" so He must have meant to follow Him in obedience of all of Torah, but then why did Yeshua only mention so precisely the mitzvot He mentioned? This is not something He would have done so offhandedly when the man's eternal life weighed in the balance. So I could only conclude that these are the mitzvot we are commanded to follow. Do I obey more? Yes, I do, but I don't feel that I have to for eternal life. For rewards?....maybe.

Now I know you didn't ask me about this this go round but it has been asked of me here before so I figured I'd take the opportunity to answer. This is what many Christians call the Law of Christ. Somebody else asked about the Law of Christ earlier.

 

[SAM Wis]

We may have our feelings ruffled or disagree but shouldn't we give this process a chance? Good can come from it. Shalom sister.

It has taken hours but I have "caught up" on this entire thread. Have only been participating a few months so I didn't want to butt in where I don't fully understand the history.

But when I saw this, I felt I must at least comment.

Yeshua help us all!

I agree with the most recent post that there are several conversations going on simultaneously, not always productively.

I see much evidence of care and concern on the part of those who have been called in to "help," yet little evidence of understanding the issues.


I must also say that to my "ear" anyway, some of it sounds rather condescending and patronizing. I haven’t found it to be much of an encouragement to continue participating, but then I have still been evaluating how much value there is to forums anyway.


Trying to find a word picture, and NOT intending to be offensive: maybe like a Little League coach trying to mentor the coach of say, the Brewers or the Red Sox? No, better example: that Little League coach trying to mentor a professional golfer. Some common ground as far as personal preparations and working in front of a crowd, but beyond that "a whole nother story." Again, I'm not intending to be offensive. Sacerdote did note a lack of familiarity with the OT, which is quite common for most Christians,even those with seminary training, so lacking that foundation, it is difficult to communicate clearly. It really isn't so foreign when understood more fully!

Truthfully, I think perhaps it is easily forgotten that this is a forum, and not actually officially representative of the various groups.

While “going along to get along” is sometimes helpful, it is not the be all and end all.
If the Maccabee’s had this attitude, where would Israel be?
Maybe Foxe would have had less to write about, too.

I would rather be divided in Truth than united in error.

As has been said many times, there is a wide range of understanding here.
And lack of understanding. This seems to be true among both regular posters as well as the helpers, and the occasional visitor.

Unless I have misunderstood, this reply is quite a sad example, I'm afraid.

The concern is that the video now being labeled as instructive for this thread is one that evidently speaks against Torah observance but does it in language that is subtly misleading and not supportive of a healthy awe for the Word. It is apparently not evident to all.

This observation, twice noted, brought no reply indicating a desire to verify whether or not it is appropriate.

Subtly misleading teaching is often more dangerous than blatant untruth.
Concern expressed about the failure to recognize inconsistent teachings has nothing to do with ruffled feelings or process.

It has everything to do with integrity.

 

[Henaynei]

It has taken hours but I have "caught up" on this entire thread. Have only been participating a few months so I didn't want to butt in where I don't fully understand the history.

But when I saw this, I felt I must at least comment.

Yeshua help us all!

I agree with the most recent post that there are several conversations going on simultaneously, not always productively.

I see much evidence of care and concern on the part of those who have been called in to "help," yet little evidence of understanding the issues.

I must also say that to my "ear" anyway, some of it sounds rather condescending and patronizing. I haven’t found it to be much of an encouragement to continue participating, but then I have still been evaluating how much value there is to forums anyway.

Trying to find a word picture, and NOT intending to be offensive: maybe like a Little League coach trying to mentor the coach of say, the Brewers or the Red Sox? No, better example: that Little League coach trying to mentor a professional golfer. Some common ground as far as personal preparations and working in front of a crowd, but beyond that "a whole nother story." Again, I'm not intending to be offensive. Sacerdote did note a lack of familiarity with the OT, which is quite common for most Christians,even those with seminary training, so lacking that foundation, it is difficult to communicate clearly. It really isn't so foreign when understood more fully!

Truthfully, I think perhaps it is easily forgotten that this is a forum, and not actually officially representative of the various groups.

While “going along to get along” is sometimes helpful, it is not the be all and end all.
If the Maccabee’s had this attitude, where would Israel be?
Maybe Foxe would have had less to write about, too.

I would rather be divided in Truth than united in error.

As has been said many times, there is a wide range of understanding here.
And lack of understanding. This seems to be true among both regular posters as well as the helpers, and the occasional visitor.

Unless I have misunderstood, this reply is quite a sad example, I'm afraid.

The concern is that the video now being labeled as instructive for this thread is one that evidently speaks against Torah observance but does it in language that is subtly misleading and not supportive of a healthy awe for the Word. It is apparently not evident to all.

This observation, twice noted, brought no reply indicating a desire to verify whether or not it is appropriate.

Subtly misleading teaching is often more dangerous than blatant untruth.
Concern expressed about the failure to recognize inconsistent teachings has nothing to do with ruffled feelings or process.

It has everything to do with integrity.

QFT

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It has taken hours but I have "caught up" on this entire thread. Have only been participating a few months so I didn't want to butt in where I don't fully understand the history.

But when I saw this, I felt I must at least comment.

Yeshua help us all!

I agree with the most recent post that there are several conversations going on simultaneously, not always productively.

I see much evidence of care and concern on the part of those who have been called in to "help," yet little evidence of understanding the issues.


I must also say that to my "ear" anyway, some of it sounds rather condescending and patronizing. I haven’t found it to be much of an encouragement to continue participating, but then I have still been evaluating how much value there is to forums anyway.


Trying to find a word picture, and NOT intending to be offensive: maybe like a Little League coach trying to mentor the coach of say, the Brewers or the Red Sox? No, better example: that Little League coach trying to mentor a professional golfer. Some common ground as far as personal preparations and working in front of a crowd, but beyond that "a whole nother story." Again, I'm not intending to be offensive. Sacerdote did note a lack of familiarity with the OT, which is quite common for most Christians,even those with seminary training, so lacking that foundation, it is difficult to communicate clearly. It really isn't so foreign when understood more fully!

Truthfully, I think perhaps it is easily forgotten that this is a forum, and not actually officially representative of the various groups.

While “going along to get along” is sometimes helpful, it is not the be all and end all.
If the Maccabee’s had this attitude, where would Israel be?
Maybe Foxe would have had less to write about, too.

I would rather be divided in Truth than united in error.

As has been said many times, there is a wide range of understanding here.
And lack of understanding. This seems to be true among both regular posters as well as the helpers, and the occasional visitor.

Unless I have misunderstood, this reply is quite a sad example, I'm afraid.

The concern is that the video now being labeled as instructive for this thread is one that evidently speaks against Torah observance but does it in language that is subtly misleading and not supportive of a healthy awe for the Word. It is apparently not evident to all.

This observation, twice noted, brought no reply indicating a desire to verify whether or not it is appropriate.

Subtly misleading teaching is often more dangerous than blatant untruth.
Concern expressed about the failure to recognize inconsistent teachings has nothing to do with ruffled feelings or process.

It has everything to do with integrity.

Interestingly enough, there's the other real reality that other teaching has been promoted by many of the same people complaining about the video which other MJish believers have noted to be akin to saying one can be saved without Yeshua simply by their observance alone---one Messianic even saying that Jews today who do not turn to Christ are still good since they have the Law of Moses and that is enough...but it's in the name of Torah Observance/Following God's Law after salvation and thus it's not really noted. When Mainstream MJism has called that out but it is accepted as the Word, IMHO, something's off...and it can be just as subtly misleading as anyone saying Torah is not of importance.


Truthfully, if one believes the Law was good enough to make one righteous, there's no need talking about Yeshua in the first place since he is simply an "add-on" to the righteousness people still have today without Him when following the Mosaic Law. If RIGHTEOUSNESS is attained solely through our works and His Law, there's no need discussing scripture which lays out multiple that His blood was what purified/made us righteous.....and if others are saved by His grace for good works---with no room to boast (Ephesians 2:8-9)---then why is there what appears many times to be boasting on how others feel they are more "observant"/worthy before the Lord for their dilligence than others?

Ultimately, it comes down to whether Yeshua is needed or not...and the Word must be what we go with:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26:28&version=NIV1984

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Matthew 26:27-29

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26:28&version=NIV1984http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26:28&version=NIV1984

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+1:7&version=NIV1984

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
Ephesians 1:6-8

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+1:7&version=NIV1984http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+1:7&version=NIV1984
​

Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
Romans 5:8-10

Acts 13:36-39


36 “For when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. 37 But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.
38 “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

41 “‘Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.’[f]”
​

42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. 43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
​

​

We cannot give lip service to what HaShem's WOrd declares on where our redeemption comes from....saying we're thankful for the Grace/Blood of Christ bringing us redeemption and forgiveness....but still condemining and judging others as if they were justified by doing all the things they used to do before Christ came (i.e. Living by the Mosaic Law/Torah).​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The sacrificial system was built to foreshadow Yeshua's sacrifice and looked forward to His sacrifice in faith and anticipation. Just as the sacrifices that were done by the "Jews that believe" for about a century after Yeshua's sacrifice, such as Sha'ul and Messiah's brother among many others who were "all zealous for the Law," and those G-d has said must be started again when the Temple is rebuilt ALL look backward in memorial of His sacrifice.

To my knowledge, although I agree with you that sacrifices were still done even after Christ died, the types of sacrifices were limited greatly...for no more sacrifices for atonement of sin were ever done anymore after Christ since the Lord made clear those sacrifices were given to cleanse, in addition to the faith of the believer. But free-will sacrifices/offerings of thankfulness could still be done as long as one was willing, mentioned before in #1 . Those trying to do sacrifices today are good, IMHO, so long as it's done in remebrance of Christ rather than seeking to attain forgiveness as the Law mandated before since life is in the blood--and all sin requires blood sacrifice( Exodus 29:35-37 , Exodus 30 , Leviticus 1 , Leviticus 4:25-27 , Leviticus 4 , Leviticus 5 , Leviticus 7, Leviticus 9:6-8 )

Be it clearly known that the sacrifice of No animal ever saved anyone! It was the faith that motivated the obedience and faith in G-d's Instructions and promises - i.e. the Sacrifice those sacrifices prefigured, that saved. Just as faith in that Sacrifice and Promise saves today.

Indeed, all sacrifices were meant to point to Christ as the ultimate sacrifice...

Romans 3:25
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
Romans 3:24-26 /Romans 3

Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 2:16-18

​

With sacrifices, it seems that the means by which they occurred within the OT do not apply in the same way as they do in the New Covenant. The sacrifices of the Lord are now our own bodies----whereas the animal sacrifices only pointed to what Christ was going to do and what it is that He desires of us.

Hebrews 13:16
And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Hebrews 13:15-17

1 Peter 2:5

The Living Stone and a Chosen People

4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2:4-6

Romans 12:1
[ A Living Sacrifice ] Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.


​

One would be in error, IMHO, saying that any kind of animal sacrifice (if done in a memorial of what the Lord had done) had to be done in the manner that the Mosaic Law outlined since that era has ended....and it was transformed.

On the part concerning burnt offerings/sacrifices, Jesus noted this to a degree during his earthly ministry. For why else did Jesus note in HIS OWN Time (Matthew 9:9-13, Mark 2:13-17, Luke 5:27-32) when it came to his quoting what the scriptures say on Sacrifices in Psalm 51:16-19...in line with I Samuel 15:22-23..when it came His making clear that what God desired was Mercy and NOT Sacrifice? Christ was very radical to choose someone such as Matthew the Tax Collector as one of his disciples....seeing how well known they were for being corrupt/wild in their living....and when Jesus visited Matthew, at the cost of making connections, Jesus hurt his own reputation at first. The Pharisees tried to question Christ by saying he could never be a righteous man by choosing to associate with such immoral people....and yet, Jesus made clear that they were off since they were more concerned with their own OUTER appearance of holiness than with helping people, with criticism than encouraging, with outward respectability than practical help.

Jesus made clear that God was concerned for all people --including sinful and hurting ones (counter to how many of the Jews often acted when making sacrifices and yet mistreating Gentiles)....and Jesus made clear that God was more concerned with the Heart. More than outward appearance, God wanted inward REPENTENCE. Its the reason why Jesus quoted Psalm 51:16-17 when it came to the Psalmists ---in a time of GREAT SIN---made clear that the expression of a sacrifice didn't matter if the heart was not contrite and broken.

Jesus also made certain that he quoted Hosea 6:6 --in line with what the Prophet Isaiah said to Israel in Isaiah 1:1---that sacrifces alone were never God's heart since God desired MERCY and not sacrifice. The prophet Hosea began his ministry during the end of the prosperous but morally declining reigh of Jeroboan II of Israel---prophesing until shortly after the fall of Samaria in 722 B.C (II Kings 17). His role was to show the northern kingdom how unfaithful they had been to God, their "husband" and "provider" and had married themselves to Baal and the gods of Cananna. The way the people made sacrifices to false gods and tried to appease God with more sacrifices to him would be like a man finding out his wife had an affair---and then having the wife ttry to cook breakfast/dinner more or go on dates with her husband and give more sex. The other activities would be meaningless if she continued having an affair---or thought that her husaband wanted more and yet she didn't love Him...and Hosea tried to make clear that a religious ritual is only helpful if it is carried out with an attitude of love/ obediance for God....BUT if not having those elements, it will be simply mockery of God. God didn't want the Israelities' rituals as mucha s their hearts....

1 Samuel 15:22
But Samuel replied: “Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams
​

As Isaiah said,

Isaiah 1:10-12
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.


​

The context of Isaiah's words makes sense in light of how he lived in idolatrous Israel...a prophet during the time when the original nation of Israel had been divided into two kingdoms---Israel in the north and Judah in the South. The entire chapter of Isaiah 1 goes into great detail discussing how God was unhappy with his people....and as Isaiah 1 makes clear, God was unhappy with thier sacrifices while not revoking the system of sacrifices he had initiated with Moeses. Instead, God was calling for sincerefaith and devotion. For as said before, the leaders were carefully making the traditional sacrifices/offerings at Holy Celebrations but still remaining unfaithful to God in their hearts. For sacrifices were to be an OUTWARD sign of their INWARD Faith in God...but outward signs became empty because not inward faith existed. The people continued to offer sacrifices because they had come to place more faith in the rituals of their religion than in the God they worshipped.

One can find more on sacrifices via what Isaiah said in Isaiah 19:20-22, Isaiah 43:23-25, Isaiah 65:6-8, and Isaiah 66:2-4

Ezekiel is another good one, as seen in Ezekiel 20:27-29 , Ezekiel 20:39-41 and Ezekiel 44:14-16, Ezekiel 46:23-24.

And with Jeremiah, one can find more on what he was discussing fully with Sacrifices in Jeremiah 6:19-21 , Jeremiah 17:25-27 ,


God often made clear that sacrifices for its own sake were never appropriate if they were done in an end of themselves---for at that point, one would be lacking a broken/contrite heart in the process (God's Goal) and all one would be doing is ritualism. Its why the Jews were caught off guard before the exile--as they thought they were doing everything right and yet God was not in it.


Adam's sons were raised in the adominition of the Lord---and as God required/made clear, they were to offer up to Him. . Cain and Abel had constrasting occupations/differing kinds of offering to God----both being what God commanded since both offerings are recognizable parts of the later Levitical system: for Cain's offering of the fruit of the ground is in Deuteronomy 26:2 (an offering expressing consecration), and for Abel's offering of the firstborn of his flock, that can be found in Deuteronomy 15:19-23 (a kind of peace offering, a meal in God's prescence). At no point does the Bible suggest that offering work automatically...as if the worshipper's faith and contrition did not matter. For as the Torah makes clear, God desires BROKENESS/Willful humility in order for us to come to Him.....

Psalm 51:16-18
16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
17 The sacrifices of God are [a] a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise.
​

This is a teaching throughout the scriptures----especially as it relates to how often God said he RESISTED the proud---but gave grace to the Humble ( Numbers 12:2-4 , 2 Samuel 22:27-29 , 1 Kings 21:28-29, 2 Kings 22:18-20, 2 Chronicles 12:6-8 , Psalm 18:26-28, Psalm 25:8-10, Psalm 149:3-5, Proverbs 3:34, Isaiah 66:1-3, Luke 18:13-15, James 4:5-7 , 1 Peter 5:4-6, etc )


And with Cain's fundamentally bad heart, this can be seen in his resentment toward his brother and in his uncoopertative answers to God in the rest of the pasage in Genesis 4. He chose not to love God...or His neighbor. Cain demonstrated an evil heart by his wicked deeds, whereas Abel demonstated a pious heart by his righteous deeds---and His wholeheartely doing as God commanded. That Abel offered his sacrifice by faith and was COMMENDED as righteous for that reason, cannot be ignored. As the Word says in Genesis 4:1-12, Matthew 23:35, Hebrews 11:4, and 1 John 3:11-13

To focus on the sacrifice itself and not on the heart being transformed---as the New Covenant focuses upon--may miss the point.

 

[Henaynei]

To my knowledge, although I agree with you that sacrifices were still done even after Christ died, the types of sacrifices were limited greatly...for no more sacrifices for atonement of sin were ever done anymore after Christ since the Lord made clear those sacrifices were given to cleanse, in addition to the faith of the believer. But free-will sacrifices/offerings of thankfulness could still be done as long as one was willing

What would you call the obligatory sacrifices required for the ending of the Nazirite vow?

Numbers 6:13-15
"'This is the law for the nazir when his period of consecration is over: he is to be brought to the entrance of the tent of meeting, 14 where he will present his offering to ADONAI- one male lamb in its first year without defect as a burnt offering, one female lamb in its first year without defect as a sin offering, one ram without defect as peace offerings, 15 a basket of matzah, loaves made of fine flour mixed with olive oil, unleavened wafers spread with olive oil, their grain offering and their drink offerings.

***Now I bring this up because...

Acts 21:20-24
On hearing it, they praised Go-; but they also said to him, "You see, brother, how many tens of thousands of believers there are among the Judeans, and they are all zealots for the Torah. 21 Now what they have been told about you is that you are teaching all the Jews living among the Goyim to apostatize from Moshe (the Law), telling them not to have a b'rit-milah for their sons and not to follow the traditions.
22" What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 So do what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow. 24 Take them with you, be purified with them, and pay the expenses connected with having their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is nothing to these rumors which they have heard about you; but that, on the contrary, you yourself stay in line and keep the Torah.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Jerushabelle]

Jerusabelle, can you explain why you took such time and many words to give your opinion of what I posted and addressed to someone else and ignored my post which had quoted and was posted to you?

Didn't mean to but maybe it's because I didn't see it? I've gone to the link you've provided in lovely lavender but I still don't see it. This thread has been moving at lightening speed and I have had to go back and re-read several times. I still don't think I've read all the posts.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What would you call the obligatory sacrifices required for the ending of the Nazirite vow?

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Those sacrifices were apart of keeping the vow one makes out of consecration---for however long one was committed.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+6:17-19&version=NIV1984

Numbers 6:17-19
13 “‘Now this is the law for the Nazirite when the period of his separation is over. He is to be brought to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 14 There he is to present his offerings to the LORD: a year-old male lamb without defect for a burnt offering, a year-old ewe lamb without defect for a sin offering, a ram without defect for a fellowship offering,[a] 15 together with their grain offerings and drink offerings, and a basket of bread made without yeast—cakes made of fine flour mixed with oil, and wafers spread with oil.
16 “‘The priest is to present them before the LORD and make the sin offering and the burnt offering. 17 He is to present the basket of unleavened bread and is to sacrifice the ram as a fellowship offering to the LORD, together with its grain offering and drink offering.

18 “‘Then at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, the Nazirite must shave off the hair that he dedicated. He is to take the hair and put it in the fire that is under the sacrifice of the fellowship offering.

19 “‘After the Nazirite has shaved off the hair of his dedication, the priest is to place in his hands a boiled shoulder of the ram, and a cake and a wafer from the basket, both made without yeast. 20 The priest shall then wave them before the LORD as a wave offering; they are holy and belong to the priest, together with the breast that was waved and the thigh that was presented. After that, the Nazirite may drink wine.
21 “‘This is the law of the Nazirite who vows his offering to the LORD in accordance with his separation, in addition to whatever else he can afford. He must fulfill the vow he has made, according to the law of the Nazirite.’”

We know Paul participated in this kind of vow at the encouragment of James, who understood that others were assuming Paul hated the Law...and thus, with the coming ending of seperation by four men, wanted Paul to accompany them so to make clear he supported much of what the Torah was about.

. Acts 21:23-25
21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

​

The public fulfillment of the vow enacts Paul's respect for Mosaic traditions, but it also sets the stage for the reaction that came later when others sought to beat him up....and when reading through Acts, one can see how the accusations made against him were false since the claims of Paul dissuading Jewish Christians/Messianics from observing the Law don't go together with the behavior he showed when he often discussed it/celebrated it himself.

With the shaving of the head that was done at the end of the time of seperation--if really wanting to get into it--it would be good to discuss what others have wrestled with when Paul noted that a woman who shaves her head is dishonoring the Lord, even though the Nazarite vow was open to both men and women (Numbers 6:1-4).




And on what Paul noted with shaving heads:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+11:6&version=NIV1984

1 Corinthians 11:6
And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved.

If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.
1 Corinthians 11:5-7

But perhaps that'd be a discussion best saved for another thread where there can be more in-depth discussion..​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The first video Messianic Theology was spot on.

To me, it's a good summation of what the MJism world has always been about.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

When I think of the Torah, I think of the 5 books of Moses.

When I think of the 'OT' I think Tenakh.

And then the Brit Chadashah (NT).

I do not equate the Torah with Law, while the law is written (mostly) in the Torah, the Torah contains more then the law.

In Rabbinical Judaism, different weights of authority are assigned to the different books. The highest level of authority goes to the Torah.

Next is the Prophets and Writings in authority, after the Torah.

So I do distinguish each separately.

More than agree with ya

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I agree with much of what you wrote.

But. I do not believe that only the 'judgements/punishments' were nailed to the cross.


The Mosaic law is one. It is mans responsibility under the Mosaic covenant. It is beautiful and true and it points to the Messiah. It can not be sorted thru, picking and choosing what applies and what doesn't. Without the punishments, which are actually quite important in the picture the law draws, the law stops being a law but becomes a suggestion. The end of the punishments end the judges and the courts, which is again much of the law simply eliminated.

[/quote]

It's all apart of our heritage and thus it should be valued, just as knowledge of things made in muesuems presenting the past are not thrown out simply because of differing dynamics in the present. We don't drive around in carriages (unless you're Amish) with horses anymore, but that doesn't mean that we either dismiss that as "silly" or choose not to remember/learn...and the same dynamic occurs for things within the Torah that'll always remain even though there are differing aspects of the Spirit/God's Torah He has given us since all of the OT points to Christ (who points to the Father) and takes us beyond much of what the OT was capable of in what they had available.

Even Paul noted that things happened in the OT as examples/warnings for us today--and Paul noted how Christ was within the OT:

1 Corinthians 10

Warnings From Israel’s History

1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.


6 Now these things occurred as examples[a] to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry.”[b] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

 

[Henaynei]

Those sacrifices were apart of keeping the vow one makes out of consecration---for however long one was committed.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+6:17-19&version=NIV1984
We know Paul participated in this kind of vow at the encouragment of James, who understood that others were assuming Paul hated the Law...and thus, with the coming ending of seperation by four men, wanted Paul to accompany them so to make clear he supported much of what the Torah was about.



The public fulfillment of the vow enacts Paul's respect for Mosaic traditions, but it also sets the stage for the reaction that came later when others sought to beat him up....and when reading through Acts, one can see how the accusations made against him were false since the claims of Paul dissuading Jewish Christians/Messianics from observing the Law don't go together with the behavior he showed when he often discussed it/celebrated it himself.

With the shaving of the head that was done at the end of the time of seperation--if really wanting to get into it--it would be good to discuss what others have wrestled with when Paul noted that a woman who shaves her head is dishonoring the Lord, even though the Nazarite vow was open to both men and women (Numbers 6:1-4).

And on what Paul noted with shaving heads:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+11:6&version=NIV1984
But perhaps that'd be a discussion best saved for another thread where there can be more in-depth discussion..

On what Sha'ul DID about shaving heads:

Acts 18:18
Sha'ul remained for some time, then said good- bye to the brothers and sailed off to Syria, after having his hair cut short in Cenchrea, because he had taken a vow; with him were Priscilla and Aquila.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Henaynei]

But perhaps that'd be a discussion best saved for another thread where there can be more in-depth discussion..

My bad!

Maybe you could do a multi-quote of our exchange and post it all as intro to a separate thread?
When I do quotes on my iPod I loose everything quoted in the post

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Gxg (G²)]

On what Sha'ul DID about shaving heads:

Acts 18:18
Sha'ul remained for some time, then said good- bye to the brothers and sailed off to Syria, after having his hair cut short in Cenchrea, because he had taken a vow; with him were Priscilla and Aquila.
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

And truly a beautiful (as well as powerful) thing it was with what Paul did, as he had the freedom to partake of the Vow if he wished---and as a righteous Jew, he honored his vow for the time he did so. It was not obligatory for him to live as a Nazarite--but if doing so had a way to do it. Numbers 6:1-21 makes clear that the requirement is that the hair was not to be cut until the END of the vow...and as was the case in Acts 21:20-26, this action conveys continuity with Jewish practice. But the fact that he did differently is noteworthy when it came to seeing how things were not necessarily done the same way as in the OT.

Of course, with the wording, it's possible that the phrase "because he had taken a vow" means that he shaved his head in light of how he had made the Nazarite vow...alluding to the fact that perhaps he was at the end of a vow he already made earlier and was thus fulfilling things as Numbers 6 noted....and if that was the case, it'd mean that his hair grew back and perhaps he wanted to do the vow again. By the time he reached James/the elders, it was long enough for them to ask him to shave it again--except this time it'd be before other non-believing Jews in greater numbers so it'd not seem as if Paul was unfamilar with Jewish tradition/customs or not loving of Torah.

And in the event you were wondering, yes....due to my having Dreadlocks as a Caribbean/Black Hispanic, I do love/enjoy feeling like a Nazarite consecrated unto the Lord. Have had that prayed over me often and told I seem like a Nazarite by other Messianics due to my hair being long and me refusing to cut it . Within Caribbean culture, having long locks is akin to the Nazarite Vow in scripture where it symbolized strength (and for more, one can go here, here, here, here or here or here).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

My bad!

Maybe you could do a multi-quote of our exchange and post it all as intro to a separate thread?

Not a problem. Will definately take that into consideration and may think about making a fellowship thread on that, in line with suggestions made earlier on ways to connect folks in the forum

When I do quotes on my iPod I loose everything quoted in the post

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app

iPod is something I still don't know how to use fully, so you're WAY more advanced than I am...

 

[anisavta]

I'm sorry but shouldn't all this be another thread? Are all these posts in relation to bringing our forum together or just another "teaching"? Didn't we have a "Paul" thread awhile ago? This seems a prime example of those who have no idea why this thread was started in the first place.