Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Henaynei]

And truly a beautiful (as well as powerful) thing it was with what Paul did, as he had the freedom to partake of the Vow if he wished---and as a righteous Jew, he honored his vow for the time he did so. It was not obligatory for him to live as a Nazarite--but if doing so had a way to do it. Numbers 6:1-21 makes clear that the requirement is that the hair was not to be cut until the END of the vow...and as was the case in Acts 21:20-26, this action conveys continuity with Jewish practice. But the fact that he did differently is noteworthy when it came to seeing how things were not necessarily done the same way as in the OT.

Of course, with the wording, it's possible that the phrase "because he had taken a vow" means that he shaved his head in light of how he had made the Nazarite vow...alluding to the fact that perhaps he was at the end of a vow he already made earlier and was thus fulfilling things as Numbers 6 noted....and if that was the case, it'd mean that his hair grew back and perhaps he wanted to do the vow again. By the time he reached James/the elders, it was long enough for them to ask him to shave it again--except this time it'd be before other non-believing Jews in greater numbers so it'd not seem as if Paul was unfamilar with Jewish tradition/customs or not loving of Torah.

And in the event you were wondering, yes....due to my having Dreadlocks as a Caribbean/Black Hispanic, I do love/enjoy feeling like a Nazarite consecrated unto the Lord. Have had that prayed over me often and told I seem like a Nazarite by other Messianics due to my hair being long and me refusing to cut it .

But the point is that to complete the ending of the vow he had to make several sacrifices, including a sin sacrifice, according to B'Midbar 6.
According to Acts he paid for not only his sacrifices but those of 4 other Messianics as well.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Henaynei]

I'm sorry but shouldn't all this be another thread? Are all these posts in relation to bringing our forum together or just another "teaching"? Didn't we have a "Paul" thread awhile ago? This seems a prime example of those who have no idea why this thread was started in the first place.

You are right sister, it's late and we got off on a tangent in a kind of fellowship way. We caught ourselves if you notice, and are discussing how best to move it

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I'm sorry but shouldn't all this be another thread? Are all these posts in relation to bringing our forum together or just another "teaching"? Didn't we have a "Paul" thread awhile ago? This seems a prime example of those who have no idea why this thread was started in the first place.

Funny...as not too long we had a string of couples on a host of issues not dealing directly with the OP, this one standing out:

I was hoping for something a lot better than family!

Ah shoot y'all dun found a picher of my kin. We'se dressed up fur the okashun.

​

That...and a host of comments against other posters "teaching" them seen here in #23 and here in #219 ..and also seen in why one (i.e. yourself) felt that they (i.e. Templar) were not in line (as seen here in #185 and #197 /#232 ). Of course, I guess that was just sharing, huh? Moreover, in light of the others sharing in detail their own views on Torah/differing aspects who happen to be people you've either been in agreement with or openly supported, it is interesting to see how there was not any discussion on them "teaching" since it was allowed as being proper demonstration of what you feel MJism to be....and what you want to have represented. But the moment discussion in fellowship with other posters conversing so that there can be understanding on differences arises, it's quickly labeled as different than what was already allowed with yourself? IMHO, another prime example of not seeing something as it is when making an accusation about something there's no willingness to cease in oneself...and making allowances for things that one may simultaneously demand others not be allowed to do after they've already got done with doing it..

Others already made suggestions honoring the OP and the mods supported it/agreed, as others have done alongside myself ( #122 , #171 and #178 ). Thus, there's very little room talking at any point about others not knowing what the thread is about. For unless one can show where suggestions were not made, there's no need tripping. Moreover, as the OP was focused on complaints/requests of the Mods for certain things to not go down...and others disagreed with that/shared their own reasons why as well as their own perspectives on Christianity and Torah (yourself included), it is inconsistent trying to talk about other issues not being fair for discussion since you've already given yourself that allowance on what you wanted to note. Seriously, may wish to chill, as it's not that serious.and it was already mentioned where another thread would be made on the issue.


On another subject, as I caught it earlier/didn't say anything, felt I needed to set the record straight:

Why do you keep doing this? I don't see this Mod as trying to change Torah observance but rather trying to uphold the decisions made previously by members of this forum and the forum Advisor. I don't see you telling Brother EasyG that he's trying to change Torah observance or the MJ SoP and he agrees with this Mod and so does Sister Tishri. The posturing and constant rhetoric that goes on here! The Mod's an MJ for goodness sake!

He has me on ignore darlin'.
"Sister Tishri" is trying to settle this with both sides. She's not drawing lines.

Ok, so?

.

.

Again, felt I need to set the record straight very quickly. ..as the same accusation was brought up by you before in a thread I made on the subject of dancing ( #126 ). I don't have anyone on ignore since I don't use the ignore button. I just don't respond to every single comment people make or feel interest in responding to things that don't really concern me..just as others do in return to me on certain issues and others do likewise to them.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

But the point is that to complete the ending of the vow he had to make several sacrifices, including a sin sacrifice, according to B'Midbar 6. According to Acts he paid for not only his sacrifices but those of 4 other Messianics as well.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

If you make a thread on the issue, I'd love to join it with ya/others and discuss more in-depth..and of course, if you'd like me to make one first, that's cool too. Of course, if Tishri and others want to keep the discussion here, that's another thing. Either way, I appreciate the insights/thoughtfulness you share

 

[Gxg (G²)]

the truth of the matter is that this is a diverse group. within that group are several different opinions and wants and needs and practices.

All of us in the Body of Messiah

 

[Gxg (G²)]

the truth of the matter is that this is a diverse group. within that group are several different opinions and wants and needs and practices.

But better diversity than uniformity....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Don't say I didn't warn you. Brothers and sisters, please don't forget my "Let's be nice" post. I and other staff members firmly believe in it and it works. Here's the link http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-30/#post60061191

Shalom to all and God bless you.

Interesting to see.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I have Jews in my family and also have always had a heart for both Jews and Israel. .

Curious as to what side of the family you have Jews on

 

[Henaynei]

If you make a thread on the issue, I'd love to join it with ya/others and discuss more in-depth..and of course, if you'd like me to make one first, that's cool too. Of course, if Tishri and others want to keep the discussion here, that's another thing. Either way, I appreciate the insights/thoughtfulness you share

If I can get some time on a regular computer somewhere in the next day or so I can do it. But if you can do it sooner, by all means do it

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Gxg (G²)]

QFT and GREAT ideas!^^^

Ditto on what you noted with Sister M&M in her comments./suggestions

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Like in the Fiddler on the Roof, 'how did this tradition get started?'... 'I don't know'. But then he says it's a tradition, everyone knows who He is and what God expects.

That'd so be an awesome fellowship thread to make on the issue...

 

[Jerushabelle]

Originally Posted by Jerushabelle Why do you keep doing this? I don't see this Mod as trying to change Torah observance but rather trying to uphold the decisions made previously by members of this forum and the forum Advisor. I don't see you telling Brother EasyG that he's trying to change Torah observance or the MJ SoP and he agrees with this Mod and so does Sister Tishri. The posturing and constant rhetoric that goes on here! The Mod's an MJ for goodness sake!

Brother EasyG, I didn't mean this as a negative toward you. I just want to make sure you know that.

 

[Yahudim]

So, all we need do to build this "fair and impartial" forum is ignore the differing opinions within MJ and have an exclusive forum just for folks you agree with, right?

No, Brother, it is about getting along and respect for others.
We are, after all, told to think of others before ourselves.

That is a wonderful sentiment brother. However, I was not talking about ignoring others that have a different opinion than mine. In fact, I welcome it. You however, are talking about ignoring a serious breach in the forum rules for the sake of... what? You are a Moderator! Moderate!

What I was addressing was the inability of the staff to recognize anti-Torah propaganda. The example I used THIS TIME was the video you endorsed as 'fact'. From your comments, I take it that your too do not believe that Torah can be observed, much less that it is alright for Torah observant Messianics to even try. That is what 'Rabbi' Steve said in his summation of the study presented in the video. That actual quote, "You can't keep the Law even if you wanted to." was in my post HERE.

My point was and is, that the video itself is anti-Torah and posted on a site that does not even allow that Torah is observable. They said, "While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life..." What is disconcerting is the fact that NO STAFF MEMBER (including you) recognized that this is ANTI-TORAH! Again I don't think it is anything sinister on your part or for that matter, on the part of any of the staff. However, because you failed to see it, I have to ask myself how fair can you be to the Torah observant in this forum if you don't recognize violations of the SoP that are clearly slanted against the Torah observant?

Understand that I don't expect you to be Torah observant. That is your choice. I do however expect for you to be equipped to do your job as a Moderator and recognize violations against the Torah observant. That should be a given, but it's not. Why?

You are correct that we should be tolerant and seek the peace of the forum. I could not agree more. And I pledge to do my part to make that happen. But if you think that you are innocent in this and that you have no room for improvement, then you are not a part of the solution. You are the problem.

I will make you a pact, brother. If you can acknowledge this is a very serious breach of the rules by removing this anti-Torah video, I will do everything in my power to help you in all of your endeavors as a Moderator here. Is that fair enough for you?

Blessings,

 

[Yahudim]

I agree with her in this, there have been many misunderstandings about MJ with the rest of the board when Christianity is debunked and dissed in here. After all when folks think of Christianity they think Jesus and rightly so.....When they see it dissed, or devalued, it's a logical conclusion to think we care less about Yeshua, or nothing at all for Him......and when the emotions enter in with phrases such as ....."we can't follow their God Jesus as he is not our Messiah"(I'm paraphrasing and it wasn't necessarily any one here who said it, it was just something that was reported and boy did I have to do a lot of "splainen" for that one...).you can only imagine what that conjures up in the minds of staff, and cf members alike. The fact is we are apart of the body of Christ/Messiah and albeit different, we hold many truths the same, and need to appreciate the things we have in common more.

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You

For the record, I have NEVER said that "Messianics are not Christians". What I do believe is that there is a distinct difference between mainstream Christian theology and that of Messianic Judaism. I don't think any Christian or Messianic would disagree with that statement. The repeated accusation that I have said otherwise is both false and extremely derogatory. I dare anyone to quote me as saying otherwise. This needs to stop now.

 

[Avodat]

MOoD HAT ON

as this thread has descended in to anarchy it should be closed for review and debate about the law should be moved to 'Anything Torah' and continued there.

Then we can get on with sorting out the real problems!


MOoD HAT OFF
​

 

[Avodat]

Sorry I made a suggestion, I thought that's what this crux of this thread was trying to get down to.

What on earth gave you that impression

This is the 'extension to Anything Torah' thread.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

MOoD HAT ON

as this thread has descended in to anarchy it should be closed for review and debate about the law should be moved to 'Anything Torah' and continued there.

Then we can get on with sorting out the real problems!


MOoD HAT OFF
​

I agree. Lets get back ON TOPIC, AND LEAVE THE DEBATING AT THE DOOR; OR IN ANOTHER THREAD PLEASE.
For review; the OP:

Staff and Member discussion thread.
Hi,

This is a report free thread.

We need to discuss some resent issues with some debating going on between members that is directly against the establish MJ SOP, regarding Torah, and also the name calling going on towards those who have been debating Torah.

This is a reminder to those who are less Torah observant to not disrupt threads of folks who are more Torah observant than you.

And this is a reminder to those folks who are more Torah observant not to call those members who are less Torah observant grace only Christians if they self identify as Messianic Jews or Gentiles.

Thoughts?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

If you've never see it, this is one video that I thought you'd enjoy...by Dan Juster on the subject of MJism and what it is about:

Messianic Theology in 15 Minutes - Daniel Juster ...

Thanks it he explains it well. Why is identity an emphasis, seriously? I can see someone who doesn't have an understanding that I or Juster can be ethno-centric or hmm maybe someone can shed a description. Some might view what Juster said to going to the other side of the pendulum. You see I'm a sticker for looking at both sides and or at least trying to put myself in others shoes and ask a question that someone who is somewhat opposed might ask.

Is Messianic Judaism being a Jewish organizations create separation or is the separation in the mind. I read that one woman was asked if she was concerned, found it as being 2nd class and the like about being an honorary member. Her answer was interesting and it didn't seem to bother her. 'it's a Jewish organization'. Didn't faze her about different memberships. I'm not saying I agree or disagree but I'm putting another perspective out there.

I'm going to give my 'thinking out loud' off the hip thoughts on this. Am I correct to say that being Jewish is not only ethnicity speaking but this ethnicity is tied, not tied in but is 'religiously' one? In other words by me saying I'm Jewish I'm saying that I'm a child of Jacob which whether you're a believer or not, 'religious' or not denotes biblically speaking. In other words my co workers know I'm Jewish in an ethnical sense but it's tied into a biblical sense or religious sense such as never accepting over time work on the Sabbath or taking off on high sabbath days etc, etc. Weird by default when someone asks me 'what are you?' My answer was always 'I'm Jewish'. Where as my co worker who's Italian and is catholic would answer 'I'm Italian'.

I was at a church service and fellow shipped last Sunday and one of the members who is an elder, introduced himself had small talk and he asked me if I belong to a fellowship currently. I told him yes and the congregation and explained what it was openly. He asked I told him and gave him a description. I was actually delighted he was very receptive because he denotes on a monthly basis to Jews for Jesus because he was a principal and a school administrator in a Jewish section in South Jersey and he would witness and seek help from Jews for Jesus in witnessing to his Jewish co-workers and friends. He is familiar with the Jewish holidays etc. I figured I might as well be truthful and lay it out to him.

I agree with the video in that Messianic Judaism sees the church as a not by accident entity. In general there isn't really animosity against the church. In fact there's a desire for relationship with the church to seek Jewish roots. But not in a way to convert the church into Messianic Jewish congregation.

As I said before views and theologies can change as time goes. This is how splits happen. You have people or groups that split from the views of the Messianic theology video and have a stance that the Christian church is wrong and all churches should be Messianic Jewish congregations and shame on them if they are not because Messianic Judaism is the true blue 'religion'. Whether the splits are right or wrong isn't the issue. You got Hebrew roots split , two house etc.​

 

[ContraMundum]

I'm sorry CM but this is a horrible post and deserves no place on this forum

I got a ton of good feedback from it!

It's belittling, goading and as disruptive as can be

It flames everyone who loves Torah......extremely offensive

I really don't know why- the post really has nothing to do with you or anyone in particular on this forum. If my personal experience is offensive to you...I can't do much about that. I think my experience is true for me, and I don't think you should take it on board personally. Someone asked me a question- I answered honestly. I have to stand by my experience, Tish. I'm sorry you feel it reflects badly on you or the others here, but I don't see how it does.

 

[ContraMundum]

Yep, I've actually been trying to work on studying the different theological views on all of this. I actually believe I could do ok in a Methodist congregation. We believe differently on a few things, but their approach is less likely to end up with me being driven out like Frankenstein's monster, with them behind holding farming equipment and torches.



And this is where some of us need to really grow and look at not just others, but ourselves and find out why we are being so reactionary to others, and why we view it that way.

I know I've come off rough around the edges over years, but a lot of my questioning and "accusatory" reactions have been because I was wrestling so terribly with the lies I had been taught, and it was a constant struggle to figure out what was what.

There aren't many opportunities for worship with the little ones I have, or for volunteering, but I am looking at our finances to make sure we are supporting people where G-d is leading us right now.

With our large homeless population, it doesn't make sense not to provide and share with our small abundance, and with the teaching we've greatly benefited from, I want to make sure we support the TV channel that has brought us such gems, so they don't go away. From there, as things improve, I'd like to be able to give to other charities. As the children grow, and my health improves, I'd like to put my money where my mouth is, and get out there and do as well as give..

You got it!