Staff and Member discussion thread.

[pdudgeon]

Well that's great Sister, I really mean that, and I appreciate TLC but my level of observance is exactly where it's going to stay (unless God decides to change something) and I'm asking you and others here to just flat accept that. BTW, I am not non-Torah observant. I do observe many aspects of Torah.

I'll respect the rules of the forum and not teach here, but i will remember you in prayer tonight.

 

[pdudgeon]

OK I admit that I'm a little slow sometimes and I am terrible remembering names (but I'm smart) lol. Who is Henry?

no, that's Henaynei posted on page 32, post 306

The Henry you are thinking of would be one of our Admins, or Matthew Henry, commentator.

 

[The Templar]

Hi Ani, Hi Steve,

I hope you don't think that I am trying to derail the thread. After all, it isn't about peace at any cost.

The Staff want to understand what is going on so they can fix it. One of the Mods insisted that we watch a video that was basically anti-Torah. He characterized it as 'fact'. The 'Rabbi' Steve in this video, said in his summation, "You can't keep the Law even if you wanted to." Not only do I disagree, the video itself is clearly against the SoP. It is campaigning against Torah observance.

My consistent position has been that the Staff does not recognize anti-Torah propaganda when they see it. Nothing sinister mind you. They are simply not trained in what to look for. So this video, among other things is a great example of the point that I and others have been trying to illustrate - in a way that they might actually see it. I believe that is something they might want to fix if peace is to be established in the Messianic Judaism forum in a fair and impartial manner.

So, all we need do to build this "fair and impartial" forum is ignore the differing opinions within MJ and have an exclusive forum just for folks you agree with, right?

No, Brother, it is about getting along and respect for others.
We are, after all, told to think of others before ourselves.

 

[pdudgeon]

If all it takes to go and subvert a forum is an icon change, CF is hopless.

What if we all did the same thing?

ROTFLOL, sorry but from a mod's perspective i can assure you that no one yet has succeeded, though it's not for lack of trying.

the old ship is built from sturdier stuff than might first appear.

 

[Qnts2]

Let me try to clarify..

I was trying to express:
We earned just penalty of eternal death due to our sin
Yeshua, because He was totally sinless was, by His death, able to pay our penalty for us
If we choose to accept His payment on our behalf we owe to Him our obedience to His Torah/Law/Instruction.

Nothing in G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction had died, been buried, expired, been replaced or been done away with. G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction is eternal, as is the penalty for breaking His Torah/Law/Instruction. THAT is why we need an ongoing relationship with Moshiakh and communication with HaShem! Thanks to the Ruakh we are able to be somewhat better at obeying G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction, but no one can keep it flawlessly. That fact does not excuse us from our responsibility to daily make an earnest effort to get better at it and to confess our failures when they happen.

For those who believe G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction are not incumbent on them the above is by no means meant to be judgmental, just a clarification of the beliefs of my Messianic community.

Also, I am only broaching this topic at all as a mod asked a question

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Thank you for clarifying.

I agree that we justly earned the penalty of death for our sins, and the Jesus was totally sinless and able to pay the penalty for us.

I also believe that in Adam, we died spiritually. I use the term, prior to belief, we were dead men walking. And at any time, it was well within Gods right to strike us dead, and turn us over to the second death. Being dead in sins, we were in need of life. Yeshua repeatedly said He came to give Life, and that Life eternally. It is not just in the future, but we have received that life now. We became Spiritually alive to Him.

Now, if we continue to be obligated to the Mosaic law, the penalty for sin is death for many of the commands. So, if we violate the Mosaic law, we once again die. If we die, we need a sacrifice for sin, per the Mosaic law. As I take the law, as one unit, for face value, and I do not believe we can remove one jot or tittle, that includes not removing the sacrifice which is part of the one Mosaic covenant. If we sin, and the command says that sin requires a sacrifice, and we fail to follow the Mosaic law to make that required sacrifice, then we have broken another law.

That is why I believe we are not under the Mosaic covenant but under the New Covenant. The sacrifice in the New Covenant is that of Yeshua one time sacrifice for all of our sins. And since we are now new creations, made spiritually alive in Him, we deeply desire to serve Him and be obedient to Him.

 

[Jerushabelle]

While I understand where you are coming from, I don't think the way you attack the issue is helpful, it's not helpful to accuse members of slanderous lying and only serves to create an even larger wedge of resentment between groups in here

Okay, so what words would you use besides "slanderous lies"? You see, what CM said was true. And the words "slanderous lies" come from a place of persecution and whether one is Jew or Gentile, that place is very painful. Can't we also recognize that people have pain and that pain plays out in our word usage?

 

[Jerushabelle]

I'll respect the rules of the forum and not teach here, but i will remember you in prayer tonight.

Really? Thanks. Now how about telling me what I said wrong Sis, IYHE, instead of inching toward condescension. I'm being open minded here.

Exactly how does my post require prayer and these do not?:
Originally Posted by talmidim

all these newly minted non-Denom Messianics coming over to save us

Bright as a shiny new penny!

Great post, chaver.

Thank you for your explanation of your view. It is one held by most of Christianity, not a thing wrong with it. For the last two thousand years most of the servants of G-d have dearly held this view.

It is not the view of most of MJism

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Don'tcha just appreciate the condescension and love in these posts also?

​

 

[Qnts2]

Got ya. I go with others who also include things such as the Psalms (also referred to as Law as well, both by Christ and others) alongside the Pentateuch..and the Laws given to those who are NT believers as well.
Likewise..
Apocrypha was a bit more extensive as the Middle books, unless I misunderstood you...but that's another issue which can perhaps be debated in another thread. More on the Tanak and the Apocryph as well as the B'rit Hadashah was shared before in another thread (seen here in #410 ). Additionally, if interested, there's actually an excellent book on the issue of how the Hebrew Bible came to be as it was---and how their view of "books" isn't necessarily the same as how we see it today. It's called Scribal culture and the making of the Hebrew Bible" by K. van der Toorn

When I think of the Torah, I think of the 5 books of Moses.

When I think of the 'OT' I think Tenakh.

And then the Brit Chadashah (NT).

I do not equate the Torah with Law, while the law is written (mostly) in the Torah, the Torah contains more then the law.

In Rabbinical Judaism, different weights of authority are assigned to the different books. The highest level of authority goes to the Torah.

Next is the Prophets and Writings in authority, after the Torah.

So I do distinguish each separately.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

If you've never see it, this is one video that I thought you'd enjoy...by Dan Juster on the subject of MJism and what it is about:

Messianic Theology in 15 Minutes - Daniel Juster ...

Dr Dan Juster (Biblical Love) pt1 - YouTube

Dr Dan Juster (Biblical Love) pt2. - YouTube​

The first video Messianic Theology was spot on.

 

[Henaynei]

Thank you for clarifying.

I agree that we justly earned the penalty of death for our sins, and the Jesus was totally sinless and able to pay the penalty for us.

I also believe that in Adam, we died spiritually. I use the term, prior to belief, we were dead men walking. And at any time, it was well within Gods right to strike us dead, and turn us over to the second death. Being dead in sins, we were in need of life. Yeshua repeatedly said He came to give Life, and that Life eternally. It is not just in the future, but we have received that life now. We became Spiritually alive to Him.

Now, if we continue to be obligated to the Mosaic law, the penalty for sin is death for many of the commands. So, if we violate the Mosaic law, we once again die. If we die, we need a sacrifice for sin, per the Mosaic law. As I take the law, as one unit, for face value, and I do not believe we can remove one jot or tittle, that includes not removing the sacrifice which is part of the one Mosaic covenant. If we sin, and the command says that sin requires a sacrifice, and we fail to follow the Mosaic law to make that required sacrifice, then we have broken another law.

That is why I believe we are not under the Mosaic covenant but under the New Covenant. The sacrifice in the New Covenant is that of Yeshua one time sacrifice for all of our sins. And since we are now new creations, made spiritually alive in Him, we deeply desire to serve Him and be obedient to Him.

Thank you for your explanation of your view. It is one held by most of Christianity, not a thing wrong with it. For the last two thousand years most of the servants of G-d have dearly held this view.

It is not the view of most of MJism.

All the covenants were built and fully included the previous ones; much like those transparent overlays of the body systems in science class.

ALL sacrifices obtained their efficacy by virtue of the fact that they ALL looked forward as shadows of the One perfect Sacrifice. Sha'ul said to believers "if we say we do not sin, the Truth is not in us." When believers sin they need only to confess their sin and return to the Complete Sacrifice. He died "once, for all" our sins and His Covering is available to all who truly call on His Name.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Qnts2]

The first video Messianic Theology was spot on.

I agree.

 

[pdudgeon]

And I think that's why some are taking advantage of this thread to continue the theological debate instead of working on a solution. There is no fear of recourse.

the truth of the matter is that this is a diverse group. within that group are several different opinions and wants and needs and practices.

what we are trying to do here as staff is to account for all the sheep, round them up, and get their attention. we do this because we don't want any sheep to be lost.

now up to this point all the sheep have been doing their own thing and eating grass all over the wide expanse of the meadow, so sometimes it takes a while to accomplish the rounding up.

But by G_d's grace we are well supplied with able shepherds and sheep dogs to do the job, so bear with us a while yet and you will see progress happening all over the place.

 

[Qnts2]

Thank you for your explanation of your view. It is one held by most of Christianity, not a thing wrong with it. For the last two thousand years most of the servants of G-d have dearly held this view.

It is not the view of most of MJism

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

I would disagree. I know many who would agree with what I said who are Messianic Jews.

There are differences between Christianity and Messianic Judaism, although we do agree with the fundamental basics.

Christianity has communion. Messianic Judaism has Passover.
Christianity has Easter. Messianic Judaism has the first fruits wave offering and then the counting of the Omer.
Christianity has Pentacost. Messianic Judaism has Shavuos.

Messianic Judaism says Messiah, not Christ. (Jewish people have been abused in the name of Christ, so the word Christ does not have good connotations). The Jewish people know we are promised the Messiah so Messiah is a Jewish word with a Jewish understanding.

And these are just a few of the differences. There are a lot more. From a Tenakh to NT view, things look different then a NT to OT view.

 

[Henaynei]

I would disagree. I know many who would agree with what I said who are Messianic Jews.

There are differences between Christianity and Messianic Judaism, although we do agree with the fundamental basics.

Christianity has communion. Messianic Judaism has Passover.
Christianity has Easter. Messianic Judaism has the first fruits wave offering and then the counting of the Omer.
Christianity has Pentacost. Messianic Judaism has Shavuos.

Messianic Judaism says Messiah, not Christ. (Jewish people have been abused in the name of Christ, so the word Christ does not have good connotations). The Jewish people know we are promised the Messiah so Messiah is a Jewish word with a Jewish understanding.

And these are just a few of the differences. There are a lot more. From a Tenakh to NT view, things look different then a NT to OT view.

But all of those are Torah and have specific Mitzvot pertaining to how G-d said they are to be celebrated. According to 1Jn 3:4 it is sin to violate these Mitzvot. Yet you said, essentially, that if we sin we must have another sacrifice.

Help me understand were you find the authority to pick which Mitzvot you will or will not keep or do.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[pdudgeon]

Love your new picture.

Yes, I get what you mean but maybe this is needed to get some things out that have been hidden. I see two sides here and my suggestion is that we have two forums.

1. Mainstream Messianic Judaism for Jews that believe in Yeshua as Messiah and Gentiles who have a Orpah Calling.

2. Messianic Remnant- Followers of first century Judaism as defined by Yeshua for Jewish believers and Gentiles with a Ruth calling.

then i have only one question:
will you be content to be divided by your differences, or will you strive to stand together, united by what you hold in common?

and perhaps one observation........this life we live has been said to be practice for our life in eternity. So how is your practice comming along?

 

[Lulav]

then i have only one question:
will you be content to be divided by your differences, or will you strive to stand together, united by what you hold in common?

and perhaps one observation........this life we live has been said to be practice for our life in eternity. So how is your practice comming along?

Sorry I made a suggestion, I thought that's what this crux of this thread was trying to get down to.

 

[Lulav]

Wow Tish,

You really don't get it. You view that as mudslinging? Really? Against who? Did you really read what I wrote?

I watched the video. I found the on-line study. I did some research. What I found was error. What I saw was bait and switch. I watched the video that everyone oohed and aahed over, praising it for minimizing the responsibilities of the Torah observant to that of irrelevant; 'like fighting over a penny'. It was a smear.

What they didn't tell you is that all they teach is mainstream Christian doctrine with some Hebraic window dressing, not that Hebrew roots is wrong. Its just that the whole presentation was both misleading and erroneous on the most basic level. It teaches that even if you are 'Torah Positive' as they called it, you may as well quit because it doesn't matter. Torah isn't for the New Testament believer. That message is against our SoP in case you missed it. And I was outraged! That video should have never been allowed in this faith group's forum - AND THE STAFF ALL MISSED IT! One of the Mods was even demanding that we watch it. Well I did.

They may as well have said, 'It just like fighting over an inch of dirt', knowing full well that stepping back that inch puts you over the precipice.

That wasn't mudslinging Deb, it wasn't personal. That was Theatre of the Absurd and an appropriate response to that hogwash:"We believe the Law of Moses as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation. While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life..." The makers of the study and the video, post this on their website and paraphrase it in this video.

And you didn't see it?

And now that video has it's own thread and own Sticky too

19th March 2012, 12:48 PM

Torah observance MJ style
http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-4/#post60047944
Must see video on Torah Observance

http://v10.lscache1.googlevideo.com/...70D2C5&key=ck1

​

I guess this is what we have to agree to, like it or not?

I'm done here.

 

[pat34lee]

Hi Pat,
As an observer from the outside would you mind explaining to me what one is being saved from? What is the Messianic perspective of salvation, or would it be the same as the view of salvation within mainstream Christianity?
Thank you

If I miss any posts, I'm not ignoring them. Some of these threads get long quickly and I lose my spot in them.

Salvation is basically the same in messianic and Christian beliefs. It is a gift requiring nothing from us, because we have nothing to offer for it.

 

[pat34lee]

the majority of Messianic Jews will disagree. Not about the marriage vow but your statement that Torah observance is mandatory after salvation.

What do you think happens to those who do not keep the law?

There are three possibilities.

First, they don't keep the law because they are not saved. You can guess what happens there.

Second, they rebel against the law. Dangerous, mostly in this life, but can cause loss of status in the next.

Third, they don't know any better. We are judged by what we know and how we apply it. This doesn't mean we will be in the same place of observance, as it takes time for us to change.

 

[Chaplain David]

And now that video has it's own thread and own Sticky too

19th March 2012, 12:48 PM

Torah observance MJ style
http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-4/#post60047944
Must see video on Torah Observance

http://v10.lscache1.googlevideo.com/...70D2C5&key=ck1

​

I guess this is what we have to agree to, like it or not?

I'm done here.

We may have our feelings ruffled or disagree but shouldn't we give this process a chance? Good can come from it. Shalom sister.