Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Yahudim]

Well, i'm not David (I'm Pam) but the first thing i would like to do is to thank you for post, and for describing the situation here as you see it so very well.
i can relate!

the second thing i would like to reassure you of is that there is hope. this forum has not been abandon nor will it be.

and the third thing is to remind you that no matter how rough the going gets, G_d always preserves a remnant. I have seen His preservation efforts first hand, and no doubt you have as well.

There are some things that we all need to strengthen here, there are some ways of posting that will help, some staff framework that is in the process, and most of all there is still rejoicing that needs to happen to bring us together.

So please hang in there with us while we all work together to make this a better place, ok?

Shalom Pam,

Thank you for your kind reassurances. You are correct; He is in charge. But He requires of us too.

My thanks to Deb, David and everyone else. I think I had better get some rest. Might be better for all concerned.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Subscribing... and reading.

Glad to see you're doing well, Brother Mark. Was wondering where you were at, although I suspected you were just living life on the Lutheran board as usual

 

[anisavta]

I know why you say you are here. And I have no reason to doubt your intentions. But some of us feel you might not have a clear understanding of our perspective. I am not concerned that you are only here to stop the name calling. I am concerned that you even perceive it as name calling.

Tish has a clear understanding of our perspective. She is indeed one of us. Yes there are many if not most of the mods who don't understand the uniqueness of our forum, but there are a few that desire to understand and as we can see by this thread want to help.
Good grief we can't even figure out who we are sometimes, can you imagine how hard it is for the mods who have to put out fires in all the forums, let alone ours.
This is the time for all of us to resist picking at each other and ban together to create a forum where we all feel safe and where we can stand together. Think elephant herd. To protect one, they will circle that one facing out towards the threat.
That's what I think we were trying to do with our latest "issue". Problem is we end up scuffling with each other to see who's in charge.
Sorry for the rambling. It's late.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

One man's Torah observance and understanding is another's "anti-Torah post". It's utterly frustrating to watch and post in such a petty environment..

Really, it is isn't all that different from what happened in the early body of believers when there were differing levels of Hebraic/Messianic thought amongst the Jews, some more so toward the Ebionite side of things concerning feeling they were meant to follow all aspects of the Mosaic Law given to the Hebrews, whereas there were others in varying levels of what they felt was necessary of Gentiles. And within that, the battles the Pharisees had amongst themselves...as evidenced in the School of Shemai (feeling Gentiles had to live as the Jews) vs the School of Hilel (which was for Gentiles following what Noah was about). One big happy family

 

[Jerushabelle]

Actually the word legalism is offensive in here, what you might see as legalism is someone's obedience to what the Father has called them to and that's what I'm trying to say respect for the levels of Torah observance needs to be practiced in here as it is one of the traits we see in MJ and it's in our sop.

So how could you express your thoughts with out offending?

Simply by saying

I respect your level of Torah Observance and thank you for your opinion on the matter, I don't want to seem anti Torah in here being I'm not as observant as you all so I will leave you all to your discussion here, blessings...

Yes, the word legalism is offensive. It restricts the freedom all Christians have in Jesus/Yeshua. The act is offensive and it plagues ALL corners of Christianity. Let me make it perfectly clear that I'm not talking about one's desire to be obedient to God's commands as they are convicted. I'm talking about the demand that all be uniformly obedient without allowing for the personal convictions occurring in one's relationship with God.

I would never say, "I respect your level of Torah Observance and thank you for your opinion on the matter, I don't want to seem anti Torah in here being I'm not as observant as you all so I will leave you all to your discussion here,..." I might be more inclined to say, "I'll respect your level of Torah observance if you respect mine which by no means is anti-Torah." And no, I certainly am not going to leave the conversation simply because I don't see eye to eye with the folks involved in it or because they don't see eye to eye with me. Heaven knows I might learn something from them or they might learn something from me!

Additionally, I will stand up for my right to post my opinion while obeying CF community wide rules and respecting congregational S'soF or SoP. This isn't shul, this isn't a congregation. This is a forum just like every other forum here at CF. I care about the witness I put forth and I care about whether people see Yeshua in my life and words. I'm fairly certain I have proven that here at CF.

 

[Jerushabelle]

So why not take away our distinction all together and just call us "another fringe Christian group" and be done with it. Is it so difficult to allow someone a distinction instead of a mishmash?
I just don't understand the desire of some to assimilate a Jewish believer into the Christian world instead of letting them keep their distinctions.
Contra you have embraced Christianity and for you it might work. But to deny another Jew and even a Gentile who identifies with the Jew the right to separate themselves from what they feel is offensive in Christianity is beyond me.

No one can take away from you your distinction in Yeshua. No one can take away any bit of what God intends for us as believers, Jew or non-Jew. We can give it away but no one can take it away. I understand what you are saying but Yeshua has told us otherwise and not to fear as long as we remain in Him.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hi Tish,

Let's see. We have yourself, Sacerdote, Pdudgeon and now MarkRohfrie(can't remember), all good folks, but not blood, genetic, halachically Jews. Not that actual Jews should be relevant to this discussion. It should be abundantly, intuitively and glaringly obvious, even to fools, that the Jews have been replaced, yet again, despite the contrived protestations to the negative.

I can honestly and transparently say that I don't trust you.

For shame.

Thank you for your honesty. Trust often needs to be earned; it's my hope that such will prove to be the case for you, as it has for many of my faithful friends in this Forum.

I am the first to admit that coming from a very different background than many of the members in this forum, it is taking me some time to understand not only the dynamics of this Forum, but the diversity of the membership in this forum. Thanks to the patience, the kindness of many of your members, my understanding is growing, and continues to grow.

Your input is welcome and needed here. Seeing that you are frank and speak your mind, I trust that you will not only give us that straight goods, but will offer correction if we appear to be misunderstanding things.

Hey Mark our dear friend and guardian behind the scenes awesome to see you here and sooooo soon too!!!!

Thanks Tish! It's always good to be here; thanks for the invite!

Hi Tish,

I know why you say you are here. And I have no reason to doubt your intentions. But some of us feel you might not have a clear understanding of our perspective. I am not concerned that you are only here to stop the name calling. I am concerned that you even perceive it as name calling.

Forgive me, I do not intend to answer for Tish, but explain my perspective.

Honestly, what staff may or may not perceive as name calling is not as relevant as when other members are or perceive that they are being called names.

The problem seems to occur when those among us that are Messianic in name only, debate and teach from a mainstream Christian perspective. I'm not talking about varying degrees of Torah observance here. I'm talking about anyone that teaches Mainstream Christian doctrine as Messianic Judaism. There is a difference. You will know them by their fruit. Clearly identifying these individuals should be a priority. Accurate identification isn't name calling. It's just stating the facts.

This is indeed one of the most difficult things for our Staff to discern, in that there is much diversity within MJism. We staff, who are not MJ see diversity in practice, observance, and the backgrounds of various members. We also note here, as in all of the Congregational and Faith Group forums, that all members are at different places in their "Faith Journeys".

I do agree that occasionally trolls will adopt, as someone stated earlier, a "flag of convenience"; but experience tells me that such is rarely the case. Members may be sincere in their Icon usage, but, because of their backgrounds, their own research, and their own interpretations of beliefs and practices, have differing opinions, and even wrong opinions. One must always read posts with an open mind, and offer direction and even correction on a loving and caring way. Those who are insincere or trolling will soon reveal themselves; when they do, report them, and they will be dealt with.

Concerning my remarks about the Mods, forgive me for not being clear. I have said this in different ways before. And in exchanges in PMs with some, I have the impression that I am not the only one that feels this way. The bias I am speaking of is much more subtle than being actively anti-Torah. It is the kind of bias that affects perception. I don't think it intentional.

For instance, some Mods do not see the offence against the Torah observant because what they are reading seems perfectly normal to them. They are overwhelmed and in a hurry. What they read is within a degree or two of what they have heard from the pulpit all their lives. In other words, no warning bells or red flags are triggered. On the other hand they read a complaint that seems like name calling and it is perceived as pejorative rather than objective. In my mind, there is a notable difference between mainstream Christianity and Messianic Judaism. Most of us in this forum are attuned to those differences. Most from outside are not.

I realize that what I said sounds harsh. I am truly sorry if I offended. These Mods are overworked and only human. This is a very difficult situation and my hat is off to them. But when you are down in the trenches and you can't even discuss your understanding of scripture for all the sniping - you get a little punchy. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in the beginning. I'm not blaming the Mods. I'm just trying to be objective.

Yes, there is no doubt that some, maybe most, staff are personally "anti-Torah", but you are not, and neither is this forum. Therefore, staff strives to set aside their own beliefs and biases, and moderate your forum in the spirit of your forum.

As far as what I said to David, I apologized, admitted my fault and asked his forgiveness. I too hope that you will forgive me my frustration.

Love you,[/quote]

It is a blessing to see Pam and Sacerdote here in this thread. Like myself, they are growing in their understanding, with the desire to do better; and therefore, provide good counsel to other members of our staff. You all deserve good moderation; help us to provide it!

Blessings and peace,

Mark

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Glad to see you're doing well, Brother Mark. Was wondering where you were at, although I suspected you were just living life on the Lutheran board as usual

Thanks Easy! You too!

Actually I have most of my time here consumed in General Theology... I like coming here for the relative peace and tranquility.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Really, it is isn't all that different from what happened in the early body of believers when there were differing levels of Hebraic/Messianic thought amongst the Jews, some more so toward the Ebionite side of things concerning feeling they were meant to follow all aspects of the Mosaic Law given to the Hebrews, whereas there were others in varying levels of what they felt was necessary of Gentiles. And within that, the battles the Pharisees had amongst themselves...as evidenced in the School of Shemai (feeling Gentiles had to live as the Jews) vs the School of Hilel (which was for Gentiles following what Noah was about). One big happy family

Not only here and among the early believers; Christendom today is no different as you know.

Yes, the word legalism is offensive. It restricts the freedom all Christians have in Jesus/Yeshua. The act is offensive and it plagues ALL corners of Christianity. Let me make it perfectly clear that I'm not talking about one's desire to be obedient to God's commands as they are convicted. I'm talking about the demand that all be uniformly obedient without allowing for the personal convictions occurring in one's relationship with God.

I would never say, "I respect your level of Torah Observance and thank you for your opinion on the matter, I don't want to seem anti Torah in here being I'm not as observant as you all so I will leave you all to your discussion here,..." I might be more inclined to say, "I'll respect your level of Torah observance if you respect mine which by no means is anti-Torah." And no, I certainly am not going to leave the conversation simply because I don't see eye to eye with the folks involved in it or because they don't see eye to eye with me. Heaven knows I might learn something from them or they might learn something from me!

Additionally, I will stand up for my right to post my opinion while obeying CF community wide rules and respecting congregational S'soF or SoP. This isn't shul, this isn't a congregation. This is a forum just like every other forum here at CF. I care about the witness I put forth and I care about whether people see Yeshua in my life and words. I'm fairly certain I have proven that here at CF.

Legalism is an offensive term, everywhere, in my opinion. Just as some use it here, it is used against other Christians to belittle their faith.

No one can take away from you your distinction in Yeshua. No one can take away any bit of what God intends for us as believers, Jew or non-Jew. We can give it away but no one can take it away. I understand what you are saying but Yeshua has told us otherwise and not to fear as long as we remain in Him.

Amen!

 

[Chaplain David]

Shalom aleichem brothers and sisters and fellow staff. Just got on and I see you've been bringing up a lot of good points and sore ones as well. My wife and I have been cooking, she taking care of this wonderful apply pie, and I making bread and a roast.

Hello also to my fellow staff, not sure who's on right now except Mark. Hi Mark. Hope you and yours are well brother. I have some reading to do to get up to speed but I'll be checking in later.

We are indeed blessed that as staff here we have Tishri1, a CF Supervisor Mark, and a mod super in training with tons of mod experience (Pam) and another Mod (Angeldove97). We could not be with better people or ones with bigger hearts for you, our board, each other and our members, and of course first and foremost, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Shalom

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Jerushabelle,

What you have said here concerns me.

Yes, the word legalism is offensive. It restricts the freedom all Christians have in Jesus/Yeshua. The act is offensive and it plagues ALL corners of Christianity. Let me make it perfectly clear that I'm not talking about one's desire to be obedient to God's commands as they are convicted. I'm talking about the demand that all be uniformly obedient without allowing for the personal convictions occurring in one's relationship with God.

And you found that demand here? We demand that all be uniformly obedient? Really? We don't allow for personal convictions either and so you are going to proclaim your 'freedom in Christ' and 'fix' us?

Additionally, I will stand up for my right to post my opinion while obeying CF community wide rules and respecting congregational S'soF or SoP. This isn't shul, this isn't a congregation. This is a forum just like every other forum here at CF. I care about the witness I put forth and I care about whether people see Yeshua in my life and words. I'm fairly certain I have proven that here at CF.

I respect that you want to stand up for your rights and that you care about your witness. But you are very mistaken if you think that this forum is like every other forum here at CF. Because there is a major departure from mainstream Christian doctrine that I happen to know is one with which you disagree. It is also one that makes us a consistent target of mainstream Christian believers 'contending for their faith'. We have enough contention here.

You say you are not anti-Torah, but that is difficult for some of us to believe. You have aligned yourself with someone that hardly argues anything else, especially as it applies to Gentiles. Here, we allow that everyone is obligated to Torah to one degree or another. It is a basic tenet of this faith group that is revealed in the topics and discussion threads in which we participate. The difference between Messianics is small matter of the law NOT being done away with.

Much has been made of the guidelines of the MJAA, a Christian mission established to evangelize the Jews and whose basic format hasn't changed perceptibly in 40 years. But the MJ movement has changed and that is what is reflected in this forum. Unfortunately, there are members here that have not changed with the movement. There are a number of members in this forum that have joined on the merits of their pedigree rather than their doctrinal beliefs. Only a few years back they called themselves Hebrew Christians, an apt moniker because they were of Hebraic linage and mainstream Christian doctrine. They, like you, claim not to be anti-Torah. And one might think to believe them because of their background. But their beliefs betray their real motives. I see them, at worst as disingenuous, nothing less than Christian missionaries, trying to bring us poor legalistic Messianics back into the fold, back into the 'church' we left, and at best, as misguided Jew and Gentile separatists (as Gentiles don't get to follow Torah in their view), but regardless of motivation, they are nonetheless just as disruptive.

I personally cannot tell you how many times I have heard the term 'freedom in Christ' used to annul His lawful commands, used to derail our threads, used like a weapon with which to beat us poor misinformed Messianics over the head. Your use of the term 'legalism' demonstrates your lack of understanding and sensitivity. You will therefore understand if I am a bit skeptical of your new-found Messianic allegiance.

Messianics have more in common with Christians than we have differences with them. But the difference we have , in our perspective, are profound and not ones that we wish to debate (the ones that we get so TIRED of having to debate). What we do often debate is a matter of how best to obey Torah, to what degree it applies in different circumstances and how it affects our understanding of 'New Testament' scriptures; a distinction that is often lost on people that still cling to the 'freedom' you proclaim. We too have freedom In Messiah.

Most us us see freedom IN obedience to Torah and as being FROM obedience to the politically convenient ordinances of the leaders of Ancient Judea; those ordinances and traditions that have little or nothing to do with Torah obedience. We also find freedom from the politically motivated and purposeful scriptural misinterpretations of Ancient Rome that have found their way into almost every nook and cranny of modern Christian thought. So again, please forgive me if I offend. But what you are saying is not something new to us. It is instead, the same old song and dance.

Peace,

 

[Chaplain David]

Hi Tish,

Let's see. We have yourself, Sacerdote, Pdudgeon and now MarkRohfrie(can't remember), all good folks, but not blood, genetic, halachically Jews. Not that actual Jews should be relevant to this discussion. It should be abundantly, intuitively and glaringly obvious, even to fools, that the Jews have been replaced, yet again, despite the contrived protestations to the negative.

I can honestly and transparently say that I don't trust you.

For shame.

We are entitled to our feelings and also to express them. But under which spiritual principle can this distrust be justified when none of us have done anything to earn or deserve the distrust? I can honestly say that everyone here from staff is here to do our best to help this forum as it has had some getting along problems and mudslinging? Shalom.

 

[pdudgeon]

Yes, the word legalism is offensive. It restricts the freedom all Christians have in Jesus/Yeshua. The act is offensive and it plagues ALL corners of Christianity. Let me make it perfectly clear that I'm not talking about one's desire to be obedient to God's commands as they are convicted. I'm talking about the demand that all be uniformly obedient without allowing for the personal convictions occurring in one's relationship with God.

but with that comes the truth that obedience is always a personal matter between one person and their G_d. That is the highest and the most important obedience. all other requirements fall far below it.

learning the how and the why of being in obedience will always go a long way towards making it easier for everyone to accomplish. But the good part of that is that it also makes getting along with everyone else so very much easier.

The problems in this forum have never ever been about whether more or less Torah observance is correct. The other problem mentioned in the OP of how to treat your fellow forum members is the real clue here.

I would never say, "I respect your level of Torah Observance and thank you for your opinion on the matter, I don't want to seem anti Torah in here being I'm not as observant as you all so I will leave you all to your discussion here,..." I might be more inclined to say, "I'll respect your level of Torah observance if you respect mine which by no means is anti-Torah." And no, I certainly am not going to leave the conversation simply because I don't see eye to eye with the folks involved in it or because they don't see eye to eye with me. Heaven knows I might learn something from them or they might learn something from me!

and once again this all goes to an individual relationship with G_d. One of the results of that relationship is seen in Torah observance, while other results are seen in member interactions with each other. But our goal should not be just to observe the outer requirements of Torah. No, our goal should be as G-d said; to have these things written in our hearts and on our lips, so that our actions reflect the holiness, the glory and the love of G_d.

Additionally, I will stand up for my right to post my opinion while obeying CF community wide rules and respecting congregational S'soF or SoP. This isn't shul, this isn't a congregation. This is a forum just like every other forum here at CF.

that is a place to begin, but i pray that you and all the members here will grow daily in both grace and wisdom, so that your words will speak more and more of G_d, and that more and more of Him will be seen in you; so that the light you shine forth will be beautiful to behold, that you will learn to rest in the peace of G_d, and attract many to Him.

I care about the witness I put forth and I care about whether people see Yeshua in my life and words. I'm fairly certain I have proven that here at CF.

 

[Chaplain David]

but with that comes the truth that obedience is always a personal matter between one person and their G_d. That is the highest and the most important obedience. all other requirements fall far below it.

learning the how and the why of being in obedience will always go a long way towards making it easier for everyone to accomplish. But the good part of that is that it also makes getting along with everyone else so very much easier.

The problems in this forum have never ever been about whether more or less Torah observance is correct. The other problem mentioned in the OP of how to treat your fellow forum members is the real clue here.



and once again this all goes to an individual relationship with G_d. One of the results of that relationship is seen in Torah observance, while other results are seen in member interactions with each other. But our goal should not be just to observe the outer requirements of Torah. No, our goal should be as G-d said; to have these things written in our hearts and on our lips, so that our actions reflect the holiness, the glory and the love of G_d.



that is a place to begin, but i pray that you and all the members here will grow daily in both grace and wisdom, so that your words will speak more and more of G_d, and that more and more of Him will be seen in you; so that the light you shine forth will be beautiful to behold, that you will learn to rest in the peace of G_d, and attract many to Him.

Excellent.

 

[pdudgeon]

Hi Tish,

Let's see. We have yourself, Sacerdote, Pdudgeon and now MarkRohfrie(can't remember), all good folks, but not blood, genetic, halachically Jews. Not that actual Jews should be relevant to this discussion. It should be abundantly, intuitively and glaringly obvious, even to fools, that the Jews have been replaced, yet again, despite the contrived protestations to the negative.

I can honestly and transparently say that I don't trust you.

For shame.

that's ok, trust is something that is always earned by someone--whether it be that person or the person/organization in whose name they come as ambassadors.

trust begins as the result of shared observation and experience that has both truth and good will as it's basis.
I hope that as we all post here and you read our words and begin to test them out for yourself that the trust will grow between us.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Christendom today is no different as you know.

Pretty much--and within that, Jewish culture within Christendom is also in view. It's actually interesting when considering what has been said by other Jews, who often seem to be considered not "Messianic" enough by many due to a host of assumptions on what it means to follow the Lord...and yet, from their perspective, even the most adamant of MJish followers would not really be considered Jewish in their lifestyle since many things gone on in the name of Jewish culture that many Jews have never cared for or held sacred.

 

[Lulav]

Hi Pam, good to see you here! (and back on staff)

but with that comes the truth that obedience is always a personal matter between one person and their G_d. That is the highest and the most important obedience. all other requirements fall far below it.

learning the how and the why of being in obedience will always go a long way towards making it easier for everyone to accomplish. But the good part of that is that it also makes getting along with everyone else so very much easier.

The problems in this forum have never ever been about whether more or less Torah observance is correct. The other problem mentioned in the OP of how to treat your fellow forum members is the real clue here.



and once again this all goes to an individual relationship with G_d. One of the results of that relationship is seen in Torah observance, while other results are seen in member interactions with each other. But our goal should not be just to observe the outer requirements of Torah. No, our goal should be as G-d said; to have these things written in our hearts and on our lips, so that our actions reflect the holiness, the glory and the love of G_d.



that is a place to begin, but i pray that you and all the members here will grow daily in both grace and wisdom, so that your words will speak more and more of G_d, and that more and more of Him will be seen in you; so that the light you shine forth will be beautiful to behold, that you will learn to rest in the peace of G_d, and attract many to Him.

Heartfelt thanks to you and Sacredote and Mark for joining Tishri in this en devour. Most grateful for you loving guidance and time.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Mark,

Long time. Hope you and yours are well.

*snip*​

Forgive me, I do not intend to answer for Tish, but explain my perspective.

Honestly, what staff may or may not perceive as name calling is not as relevant as when other members are or perceive that they are being called names.

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but to call a Christian a Christian has never been a problem here. Calling a Christian that claims to be Messianic a Christian has offended though. In more ways than one. OK, now we have a member that perceives they are being called names. And that is what the bring to the Mod. "I'm a Messianic because I've got Jewish blood. Now this Messianic Gentile, is calling me a Christian. Boo hoo hoo." Notice, this has NOTHING to do with doctrine. But because they are of Jewish blood and believe in Jesus, they are now somehow Messianic and can teach and debate in this faith group.

I know that this is not a popular topic among the Admins and Mods, because they have Messianic friends of Jewish extraction that are 'Messianic'. But let's be realistic brother Mark. Jews come in all flavors. There are Rabbinic Jews, Secular Jews, Atheistic Jews, New Age Jews, Christian Jews and even Buddhist Jews (I know one). But this is the ONLY forum that will restrict Christians of various denominations from debating and teaching, that will restrict believers of other faith groups and will restrict all types of people from debating and teaching in the Messianic Judaism. The one, very notable exception are Christians of Jewish extraction. They seem to be able to come and go as they please and argue mainstream Christianity in this faith group. And woe is the poor fool that calls them on their beliefs. If anyone should dare to accuse them of teaching against Torah and being mainstream Christian in the doctrine, then it's 'release the hounds, thar be name callers herebouts!' After all, they are Jewish. They have the right to say that Torah is only for them, right? Seems a little reactionary and a little hypocritical to me.

Brother, you may be right. Perhaps there is a better way to handle it. But my point is, it has never been handled, and I don't see that it will ever get handled, unless someone points it out. It is doctrine, not pedigree that makes a Messianic. So the question becomes 'How is Messianic Judaism different than Mainstream Christianity?' A poll to that affect revealed a 5 to 1 vote in favor of Torah observance and it included the aforementioned Hebrew Christians. that should tell you something about this faith group and the number one problem facing it here at CF.

This is indeed one of the most difficult things for our Staff to discern, in that there is much diversity within MJism. We staff, who are not MJ see diversity in practice, observance, and the backgrounds of various members. We also note here, as in all of the Congregational and Faith Group forums, that all members are at different places in their "Faith Journeys".

I do agree that occasionally trolls will adopt, as someone stated earlier, a "flag of convenience"; but experience tells me that such is rarely the case.

That should be your first clue. I know I am not the only one saying that this is a chronic condition. Some whistleblowers have been warned or suspended over their behavior because of this issue. But all of the Admins and Mods are saying the just the opposite. It's not that bad. There are no trolls. So at least on the surface, we see it and you don't. Now that is a problem.

Think about it.

Members may be sincere in their Icon usage, but, because of their backgrounds, their own research, and their own interpretations of beliefs and practices, have differing opinions, and even wrong opinions. One must always read posts with an open mind, and offer direction and even correction on a loving and caring way. Those who are insincere or trolling will soon reveal themselves; when they do, report them, and they will be dealt with.

Been there. Done that. Got the 't' shirt that says 'Warning'. Others have been spanked much harder than I for reporting abuses that were not realized or recognized. You learn not to report. It's in many cases like throwing a boomerang with a blindfold on. It's better to just duck. Honestly, if this weren't a 'no report' thread, I doubt you would be hearing much.

Yes, there is no doubt that some, maybe most, staff are personally "anti-Torah", but you are not, and neither is this forum. Therefore, staff strives to set aside their own beliefs and biases, and moderate your forum in the spirit of your forum.

Brother Mark, I respect their beliefs. It wasn't that long ago that I was right there with them. I just know that it is difficult to see sometimes. Nothing sinister intended and blessings on them all.

It is a blessing to see Pam and Sacerdote here in this thread. Like myself, they are growing in their understanding, with the desire to do better; and therefore, provide good counsel to other members of our staff. You all deserve good moderation; help us to provide it!

Blessings and peace,

Mark

We have good moderation and we appreciate your efforts. The hardest thing for any of us is to see are the things that are a little too close. I am no exception. I pray that I have stirred some of you consider what I have said.

In closing, I would like to point out that this situation is frustrating to the extreme. It is the cause of acts of desperation by some members that are most often misunderstood. The core group is basically in agreement here. We contend among ourselves sometimes, but we know where the line is. Most newcomers are treated with kid gloves because we respect how hard the journey can be. But the interlopers with an agenda get little sympathy. They are always different and yet always the same. they are also the ones that scream the loudest and try to manipulate the SoP to their advantage.

Thank you for your kind attention, Mark. We could use a little of both.

Blessings,

 

[Chaplain David]

Going back to Tishri's OP:

This is a report free thread.

We need to discuss some resent issues with some debating going on between members that is directly against the establish MJ SOP, regarding Torah, and also the name calling going on towards those who have been debating Torah.

This is a reminder to those who are less Torah observant to not disrupt threads of folks who are more Torah observant than you.

And this is a reminder to those folks who are more Torah observant not to call those members who are less Torah observant grace only Christians if they self identify as Messianic Jews or Gentiles.

And taking into consideration the last couple of posts made by my brothers and sisters in Christ Jerushabelle and Talmidim but addressing this to everyone,

What are some ways we can bridge the gap and make the MJ forum more cohesive, supportive and fulfilling? I'm talking especially about being Torah Observant and people measuring other people's observance as not being enough or being too much. I'm also talking about the suggestons being within the current framework of this wonderful forum and it's SOP.

Suggestions anyone?

Shalmom to you brothers an sisters.

BTW, I am no theological expert, just a simple country Baptist minister who works hard trying to help others and in my hospital where I minister to patients. God bless.

 

[Lulav]

Yes, the word legalism is offensive. It restricts the freedom all Christians have in Jesus/Yeshua. The act is offensive and it plagues ALL corners of Christianity. Let me make it perfectly clear that I'm not talking about one's desire to be obedient to God's commands as they are convicted. I'm talking about the demand that all be uniformly obedient without allowing for the personal convictions occurring in one's relationship with God.

I would never say, "I respect your level of Torah Observance and thank you for your opinion on the matter, I don't want to seem anti Torah in here being I'm not as observant as you all so I will leave you all to your discussion here,..." I might be more inclined to say, "I'll respect your level of Torah observance if you respect mine which by no means is anti-Torah." And no, I certainly am not going to leave the conversation simply because I don't see eye to eye with the folks involved in it or because they don't see eye to eye with me. Heaven knows I might learn something from them or they might learn something from me!

Additionally, I will stand up for my right to post my opinion while obeying CF community wide rules and respecting congregational S'soF or SoP. This isn't shul, this isn't a congregation. This is a forum just like every other forum here at CF. I care about the witness I put forth and I care about whether people see Yeshua in my life and words. I'm fairly certain I have proven that here at CF.

I wasn't going to participate in this thread as it has enough voices in it already, but this post helps to highlight one of the main problems going on here. Just because someone holds the scroll does not mean they are a true member of this group. As Tishri has penned over and over again, this group here believes that Torah is upheld in this forum. For those that don't believe that , this is not the forum for you.

Jerusabelle, in your own very words you have stated your purpose for being here.

I will stand up for my right to post my opinion

I would never say, "I respect your level of Torah Observance

no, I certainly am not going to leave the conversation simply because I don't see eye to eye with the folks involved in it or because they don't see eye to eye with me.

You obviously are, as many I've seen in GT argue, against what you call legalism. You have been told that it is offensive to refer to a MJ as legalistic, yet you will not back down. You say the same things as other Non MJ's, such as

I'm talking about the demand that all be uniformly obedient

I have seen this accusation many times on the GT board, it belongs there, not here. But the answer is the same for there as it is here. No one, not one person can make another obedient to G-d, that is a personal choice, but it is a choice that those in this forum (the majority at least) have made.

Yes, the word legalism is offensive.

Yes it is, it belittles those who are obedient. This goes for accusing someone of it and accusing someone of pushing it on another.

It restricts the freedom all Christians have in Jesus/Yeshua.

Again no one can make you do what you don't want to. Freedom in Yeshua does not mean freedom to sin and sin is the disobedience of the Law of G-d. John 1:3-4

The act is offensive and it plagues ALL corners of Christianity.

What 'act' is this?

I care about the witness I put forth and I care about whether people see Yeshua in my life and words. I'm fairly certain I have proven that here at CF.

I would never say, "I respect your level of Torah Observance and thank you for your opinion on the matter, I don't want to seem anti Torah in here being I'm not as observant as you all so I will leave you all to your discussion here,..." I might be more inclined to say, "I'll respect your level of Torah observance if you respect mine

See, that right there speaks volumns, for the Rabbi we follow said

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

He did not say

'Do good unto others after they have done good unto you'


I hope this can give those trying to help here an idea of what we are dealing with. ON the other hand there are those claiming the rights to post here as MJ's who deny the Gentiles the right to follow Torah among other things.