Missionary Work in NY

[yedida]

Obviously many don't understand because of the posts here as to why Messianic conversions should not be done. From what I have read here and the arguments used, it's not so much a matter of what is right and wrong because as Henaynei has pointed out, it's still in the birthing stage and no one (not even you Qnts2) can debate this with knowledge. It's all supposition at this point. We have our opinions (some of us get 2) but that's all. That's why the UMJC has begun the dialog with this paper -http://www.umjc.org/home-mainmenu-1/faqs-mainmenu-58/14-umjc-faq/21-does-the-umjc-practice-conversion

Do we know where they have gone on this in the last 16 years (last printing was 11/95 per the majority)?

 

[anisavta]

There is not a formal beit din in place, but as far as I know it's still moving in that direction. As with anything as serious as this is, it takes time, much prayer and much dialog.

 

[Henaynei]

Do we know where they have gone on this in the last 16 years (last printing was 11/95 per the majority)?

Well, at least two sites, ourrabbis and Hashivenu, are strongly moving in this direction. Both are made up of Jewish Messianic rabbis, many with doctorates or bachelors in various Jewish studies they have listed on their sites position papers/halakah on kashrut, Shabbat observance, who is a Jew, conversion and other issues.

It is a small start. "Do not despise small things."

 

[Henaynei]

There is not a formal beit din in place, but as far as I know it's still moving in that direction. As with anything as serious as this is, it takes time, much prayer and much dialog.

In Diaspora beit din are local to a specific community. In this day and age "specific community" can easily mean an organization or online community.

 

[ChavaK]

In Diaspora beit din are local to a specific community. In this day and age "specific community" can easily mean an organization or online community.

Although it's interesting that the use of bet dins for conversion to Judaism has changed (from an Orthodox viewpoint, I don't think this is true of Reform or Conservative). Gone are the days when conversions were done by local rabbis/bet dins. Now it is being centralized to a small group of bet dins to
eliminate the problems of some conversions not being valid, both in the diaspora and in Israel.

 

[Qnts2]

Obviously many don't understand because of the posts here as to why Messianic conversions should not be done. From what I have read here and the arguments used, it's not so much a matter of what is right and wrong because as Henaynei has pointed out, it's still in the birthing stage and no one (not even you Qnts2) can debate this with knowledge. It's all supposition at this point. We have our opinions (some of us get 2) but that's all. That's why the UMJC has begun the dialog with this paper -http://www.umjc.org/home-mainmenu-1/faqs-mainmenu-58/14-umjc-faq/21-does-the-umjc-practice-conversion

I can debate this with knowledge.

I have scriptures, and I have a knowledge of the Jewish community, and I have seen some of the effects already. This is truly a bad move.

Two house started out proposing the same problem. How do we make Gentiles equal citizens and not second class citizens. But the problem is a false problem. So their solution was a false solution. Gentiles are not second class citizens in the body of Messiah. Any solution to a false problem ends up being a false solution, which strays further from the Scripture and compounds the problem.

If a Gentile views themselves as second class, the problem is a poor understanding of what it means to be In Messiah. Because in reality Gentiles are not second class citizens. It is an issue of not understanding our identity.

 

[anisavta]

As reiterated over and over it has nothing to do with being a second class citizen. That's the direction you and others pushing this argument want it to go.

 

[ChavaK]

As reiterated over and over it has nothing to do with being a second class citizen.

 

[Qnts2]

As reiterated over and over it has nothing to do with being a second class citizen. That's the direction you and others pushing this argument want it to go.

What I hear and read over and over is that people want to be counted as 'equal' with the Messianic Jewish people.

If you are fully a member of the body because of faith in Yeshua, being born again, and the gift sent by Jesus, and there is no difference whatsoever, and to be a part of Messianic Judaism all that is needed is to be in Messiah, then there is no conversion possible or needed.

No one has given a reasonable argument that supports Messianic Judaism offering conversion. Other then personal feelings. Yet you deny that these personal feelings include a feeling that somehow conversion would elevate your status, or even really change anything. In otherwords, it has no positive purpose. (It has a whole lot of negatives, including going against scripture).

 

[Henaynei]

What I hear and read over and over is that people want to be counted as 'equal' with the Messianic Jewish people.

If you are fully a member of the body because of faith in Yeshua, being born again, and the gift sent by Jesus, and there is no difference whatsoever, and to be a part of Messianic Judaism all that is needed is to be in Messiah, then there is no conversion possible or needed.

No one has given a reasonable argument that supports Messianic Judaism offering conversion. Other then personal feelings. Yet you deny that these personal feelings include a feeling that somehow conversion would elevate your status, or even really change anything. In otherwords, it has no positive purpose. (It has a whole lot of negatives, including going against scripture).

Many, with more years of scriptural study, education and seeking G-d than you and I put together, strongly disagree with you.

Granted they are the minority, but it was just 30 years ago that the Vast majority of Christianity believed that folks like you and I, ones who hold that Jews that believe can and should obey Torah, were encouraging said Jews to re-crucify Messiah and endangering their souls. All based on scripture!

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

Moving this to Bridge Builders

 

[ContraMundum]

I understand where Qnts2 is coming from, but I think the responses have been fair in addressing the concern.

The notion that Gentiles are inferior to Jews is a very messy can of worms. You hear it from the poorer Jewish sources and those sources are rarely regarded as authentic by the Jews themselves.

However, the notion that one race is superior to the other is one that will not go away, but is against the Christian and Jewish faith.

 

[Qnts2]

Many, with more years of scriptural study, education and seeking G-d than you and I put together, strongly disagree with you.

Granted they are the minority, but it was just 30 years ago that the Vast majority of Christianity believed that folks like you and I, ones who hold that Jews that believe can and should obey Torah, were encouraging said Jews to re-crucify Messiah and endangering their souls. All based on scripture!

I have no idea what you mean by Jews re-crucifying Messiah or endangering their souls. I believe Yeshua died once, for all of our sin.

 

[mishkan]

Im going to a UMJC congregation and none of that is true, so sorry but I take offence to this post

It's true that the brush used was pretty broad. The UMJC is more of a loose confederation of congregations than a lock-step denomination. There are exceptions to every rule.

I actually chat once in awhile with a few UMJC leaders who do not agree with the segregation of Gentiles. And my congregation recently took on an associate rabbi who used to serve at another UMJC shul. So, we have to remember that each individual is unique.

But there are plenty in the UMJC who are rebuilding the walls and excluding Gentiles. including Russ Resnik, the UMJC Executive Director for the past 10 years, or so. I have doubts his views would be considered non-standard by the rest of the UMJC leadership.

 

[yedida]

I know. The segregation between Jew and gentile can be bad in some places. It's not so much that they don't want gentiles in the services, but they do differentiate between the two groups. It reminds me of the days of "Blacks to the back of the bus," "White food counter,' "White's Only" at the drinking fountains - horrible times that I'm, quite frankly, ashamed of! Even though I was just a small child, I hate it that the adults of that time made me a part of that horrendous history! I carry that shame as if I had been old enough to applaud it.
The segregation between Jew and gentile is obviously nothing to that degree but I now can somewhat understand how the black community felt. We whites sure loved their input into the labor force, we liked their money that kept our communities going, and apparently the white adults sure like the false feeling of superiority the black community afforded them!! Awful!! Awful!! Awful!!
Shame on what happened back then in this the good ol' US of A, and shame on what's happening now in America's Messianic synagogues!

 

[ContraMundum]

Guys and gals, think about this.

This whole forum is constantly highlighting the difference between Jew and Gentile, and the Jewish religion is the religion that introduced this segregation to the planet. The Christian religion is essentially a religion that unites both Jew and Gentile under the One true God and His Messiah.

So, here's the bottom line: any religion, organization or movement that preaches segregation since the resurrection has no claim whatsoever on being a representative of the Messiah. Such a group erases the forgiveness of sins by the Cross and denies the same and equal image of God in each human being. Jesus taught us to regard each human as we would Him. Furthermore, each and every Spirit-filled and baptized believer has the presence of God, regardless of their race. This makes all one.

The Jewish religion when purely taught without human interjection teaches segregation only in the religious sense, not in the racial sense (but ironically, when your religion is deemed to be attached to your race, the result is racial segregation in some sense at least- this is why some Jews are supremacist in their writings and some gentiles have reacted in kind: all bad and not a true understanding of Torah or NT.)

In defense of Chosen People ministries, and I have friends there, their purpose is not (as one poster claimed) to make Jews into Gentiles, but to make disciples of Jesus the Messiah from all peoples- a Jewish religious concept. Chosen People Ministries are simply doing what all religious Jews are waiting for the Messiah's followers to do- spread His teachings and heal the world.

It's not about race, and the more you hear about "Jews and/vs Gentiles", the further you are from the Messiah.

 

[Henaynei]

Fallacy number one:
The Jewish people are not a race.
Just go to Israel and look around. There are Russian Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Oriental Jews, and so on... This has always been so, since the Exodus. The Jewish nation has always been made up of many people groups or races.

Fallacy number two:
The separation in Messianic Synagogues is religion or ceremonial based but is seen and felt as a racial bias (see earlier posts using Black vs White history to make their points) - but race has nothing to do with it, never has, never will. Can't because the Jewish people are not a race.

 

[ContraMundum]

Fallacy number one:
The Jewish people are not a race.
Just go to Israel and look around. There are Russian Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Oriental Jews, and so on... This has always been so, since the Exodus. The Jewish nation has always been made up of many people groups or races.

Fallacy number two:
The separation in Messianic Synagogues is religion or ceremonial based but is seen and felt as a racial bias (see earlier posts using Black vs White history to make their points) - but race has nothing to do with it, never has, never will. Can't because the Jewish people are not a race.

You think those are fallacies? While I accept that some try to equate race with skin colour alone, I don't buy it. I think the term is far more flexible than that. I think racism, and races have very little in the way of clear boundaries.

 

[Henaynei]

You think those are fallacies? While I accept that some try to equate race with skin colour alone, I don't buy it. I think the term is far more flexible than that. I think racism, and races have very little in the way of clear boundaries.

Race is a genetic reality. The Jewish people are made up from as many races as are Americans. Neither are races, people groups but not races.

 

[ContraMundum]

Race is a genetic reality. The Jewish people are made up from as many races as are Americans. Neither are races, people groups but not races.

OK. (Assimilation vs. integration....meh. Not my kind of debate). Whatever floats your boat.