Is belief enough to be saved?

[Isreal]

Is belief enough?

The devil believes and trembles.
Is the old adversary saved?

 

[Montalban]

do or did you picture your parents as - one ready to scold?

My parents aren't God.

 

[Montalban]

Is belief enough?

The devil believes and trembles.
Is the old adversary saved?

Not just the devil. The Dalai Lama also says he believes in Jesus. Moslems do to.

All have different understanding so simply believing isn't enough.

 

[Stravinsk]

Here's the difference between the cursed and the blessed...

The cursed..

Galatians 3
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Have you ever even bothered to look at what this is supposed to refer to?

As he often does, Paul either misapplies or misquotes Scripture.

What is being referred to here is Deuteronomy 27:14-26

The last line is: " Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law. And all the people shall say Amen!".

This applies to the law given from verse 14-25, which was given that day.

Not the whole "book of the law"


Always remember Paul is a Pharisee.

 

[whitetiger1]

Here's the difference between the cursed and the blessed...

The cursed..

Galatians 3
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law; because, "The righteous will live by faith."
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.;

the Blessed...

Romans 4:4-8
Now when a man WORKS, his wages ARE NOT credited to him as A GIFT, but as an obligation.
However, TO THE MAN WHO DOES NOT WORK but trusts God who justifies the wicked, HIS FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
DAVID SAYS THE SAME THING when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom GOD CREDITS RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM WORKS:
"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Never mentioned the law, which we are not saved by.

 

[Lindas Place]

As usual, Paul either misapplies or misquotes Scripture.

If you don't believe Paul was inspired by God to write... I don't know why you would believe any of the bible. And if you don't believe that God is powerful to put a book together, I don't know why you would believe in His power at all... and since I believe it and you don't, there's no need to discuss in detail something you don't even believe in the frist place... all I can do is direct you to the gospel.... until you believe that... the rest doesn't even matter.

 

[Stravinsk]

If you don't believe Paul was inspired by God to write... I don't know why you would believe any of the bible. And if you don't believe that God is powerful to put a book together, I don't know why you would believe in His power at all... and since I believe it and you don't, there's no need to discuss in detail something you don't even believe in the frist place... all I can do is direct you to the gospel.... until you believe that... the rest doesn't even matter.

Paul is in the cannon for a reason. But we would not agree on that reason.

This is a highly spiritual matter. All I say here is that it's wise to *very carefully* compare his quotations to the OT to see if they match up - and to read the context of where those quotes come from. Most bibles contain a divider section where you can see where the quote is from so as to look it up for yourself.

 

[Montalban]

As he often does, Paul either misapplies or misquotes Scripture.

Do you have a bible with the mistakes in it highlighted?

 

[Stravinsk]

Do you have a bible with the mistakes in it highlighted?

No. There are, however, some useful websites out there in analyzing Paul of Tarsus and his writings. One is:

Jesus words Only - Jesus words as the sole inspired portion of the New Testament Scripture.

This is one reason I am not attending a church. The teaching is almost always a flood of Paul.

And Messiah and the Torah is almost always marginalized.

 

[Montalban]

No. There are, however, some useful websites out there in analyzing Paul of Tarsus and his writings. One is:

Jesus words Only - Jesus words as the sole inspired portion of the New Testament Scripture.

This is one reason I am not attending a church. The teaching is almost always a flood of Paul.

And Messiah and the Torah is almost always marginalized.

This is a rather novel idea - that not all the NT is from God.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

To the OP.

Belief is the 'first step' toward salvation. See the Eunuch's confession in ACTS 8, followed by the first sacrament to be given (baptism).

This does not override that fact that Christ God saves whom he wills.

Everyone's needs for salvation may be different.

We will not know for certain if we have measured up until we are judged. See the last judgement beginning at Matthew 25:31. What does this say about 'belief'. Answer... nothing.

Forgive me...

 

[squint]

We will not know for certain if we have measured up until we are judged. See the last judgement beginning at Matthew 25:31. What does this say about 'belief'. Answer... nothing.
.

As in 'belief doesn't matter?'

Most 'faith+works' = MAYBE salvation hold out 'a slim chance' that works alone MAY save.

In those cases why bother to believe at all, particularly if belief means nothing?

Take a shot at works and skip belief. Hearing the Gospel could be the worst possible thing to happen to such since belief means nothing without works.

s

 

[Habakk]

Have you ever even bothered to look at what this is supposed to refer to?

As he often does, Paul either misapplies or misquotes Scripture.

What is being referred to here is Deuteronomy 27:14-26

The last line is: " Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law. And all the people shall say Amen!".

This applies to the law given from verse 14-25, which was given that day.

Not the whole "book of the law"


Always remember Paul is a Pharisee.

There are a vast amount of theories out there concerning Paul and the arguments are widely known. However a little knowledge can sometimes be a dangerous thing. Paul was undoubtedly not a novice concerning the scriptures in his former state he was a Pharisees (as Paul says a Pharisees of the Pharisees), being well versed with the written scriptures.

Paul’s spiritual insight into the OT scriptures was the precursor to a lot of NT doctrine. Paul took the exhortation of Habakkuk’s message and made it the heart of the gospel. However some have difficulty with Paul’s writings and misunderstand them, we also have lots of people just quoting many verses of scripture from Paul’s epistles in inconsistent manner without any qualification of their context.

Quoting Paul’s writings does dot establish doctrine if one has not first wrestled with the scriptures and examined them in context. Scripture is profitable for doctrine, first scripture then doctrine not the other way round.

Even the Apostle Peter said of Paul “15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.” 2 Peter 3:15-18

Peter is effectively saying that the writings of Paul are difficult to understand but we need to go on and wrestle with them because they contain the wisdom of God.

 

[squint]

Quoting Paul’s writings does dot establish doctrine if one has not first wrestled with the scriptures and examined them in context. Scripture is profitable for doctrine, first scripture then doctrine not the other way round.

Even the Apostle Peter said of Paul “15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.” 2 Peter 3:15-18

Peter is effectively saying that the writings of Paul are difficult to understand but we need to go on and wrestle with them because they contain the wisdom of God.

It would appear that the (maybe) salvation = faith + works crowd landed pretty squarely in their 'wrestling match' on their own potential destruction.

s

 

[Stravinsk]

Even the Apostle Peter said of Paul “15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.” 2 Peter 3:15-18

Peter is effectively saying that the writings of Paul are difficult to understand but we need to go on and wrestle with them because they contain the wisdom of God.

Is it beyond doubt that Peter wrote those epistles? The reason I ask is that they contain some of the same themes Paul's do. We also know Peter was no great scholar like Paul was, but this epistle is in very well written Greek. Anyway, of big concern to me is:

Submission to government in *all* it's ordinances.

This is mirrored by Paul in some of his writings. The assumption is also a bit preposterous when it's made by Paul - as if the governments over the centuries have always served to protect the rule of moral civil law. This is just not true. The opposite is true.

As a thinking person one might raise their eyebrow at statements like "All Governments are instituted by God" and "obey all it's laws" when they are written into religious literature. Yes, God Almighty put in place Stalin, Hitler, Nero - to execute perfectly moral and righteous law. Ahem. Allow me to gag in brief recognition of people who have been murdered and tortured and had unspeakable atrocities happen to in the name of "the Government established by God".

Even more so when we contrast with Peter in Acts - when Peter, in *defiance* to the ruling leaders of the day - proclaimed the name of the Messiah, saying "We must obey God rather than men" Acts 5:29

Imagine if Shadrah, Meshah and Abednego had this as their Scripture direct from God. They would have to - in direct violation of His law - worship the Idol the King of Babylon set up in the book of Daniel.

-----------------------------

As for "wrestling" with Paul's works (that is - trying to fit a triangle into a square peg in many cases - or ignoring that he misquotes Scripture) - no thanks. I wrestled with him for years and even though I accepted his writings - some teachings of his I just had to ignore because I knew in my heart of hearts they just couldn't be from God, even while I accepted others.

Paul is masterful - I give him that.

But here is what my Messiah says:

Matthew 11:25 " “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure."

Consider the conversation with Nicodemus, Israel's teacher:

John 3

 

[Stravinsk]

This is a rather novel idea - that not all the NT is from God.

The title is misleading. He mainly deals with Paul of Tarsus.

I'm convinced John, the disciple Messiah loved, is right where he is supposed to be. And James. And Jude.

According to John's gospel, after the women - Peter and John race to get to the tomb, and John overtakes Peter.

And John is the disciple Messiah loved.

I don't take this as some sort of John exalting himself in the holy Scriptures - I believe it has meaning for us. It's a clue. Another is Messiah's statement to Mary - that John is her son and Mary is her mother. These are also clues.

But who reads the epistles of John? Almost no one - everyone fills themselves with Paul.

 

[Habakk]

Is it beyond doubt that Peter wrote those epistles? The reason I ask is that they contain some of the same themes Paul's do. We also know Peter was no great scholar like Paul was, but this epistle is in very well written Greek. Anyway, of big concern to me is:

Submission to government in *all* it's ordinances.

This is mirrored by Paul in some of his writings. The assumption is also a bit preposterous when it's made by Paul - as if the governments over the centuries have always served to protect the rule of moral civil law. This is just not true. The opposite is true.

As a thinking person one might raise their eyebrow at statements like "All Governments are instituted by God" and "obey all it's laws" when they are written into religious literature. Yes, God Almighty put in place Stalin, Hitler, Nero - to execute perfectly moral and righteous law. Ahem. Allow me to gag in brief recognition of people who have been murdered and tortured and had unspeakable atrocities happen to in the name of "the Government established by God".

However Paul is not really saying that.

I once had a Russian friend who was asked a question by a westerner; the question associated with the former communist government and was in two parts. First he was asked when he was saved; was it in recent times after perestroika or during the communist persecution. Then secondly he was asked if he thought it was easier to be saved now that the communist restrictions on the church have loosened. His answer was along these lines; first he was saved before the foundation of the world and secondly if God wanted him saved how could any communist really prevent God’s will from happening. I’m not saying that he was right but it certainly captures a little of what Paul was teaching Christians in times of suffering and persecution. God’s will is sovereign, man’s will or man’s government is not. Governments are raised and fall only within the purposes of God’s will.

God through Joseph, helped the nation of Egypt to survive, flourish and become great in a time of famine. The same God brought the nation of Egypt down through Moses and the Hebrew slaves. He allowed the sins of the Amorites to be fulfilled that he might also judge that nation by the obedience of his chosen people and give them a home.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

As in 'belief doesn't matter?'

Most 'faith+works' = MAYBE salvation hold out 'a slim chance' that works alone MAY save.

In those cases why bother to believe at all, particularly if belief means nothing?

Take a shot at works and skip belief. Hearing the Gospel could be the worst possible thing to happen to such since belief means nothing without works.

s

What was the Eunuch asked before he was baptised? ACTS 8

Forgive me...

 

[squint]

What was the Eunuch asked before he was baptised? ACTS 8

Forgive me...

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Sufficient work?

s

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Forgive me...