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Missionary Work in NY

Qnts2

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While I have no problem with Jew talking to Jew about the Messiah Yeshua, I do have a problem with the exclusive attitude which is not fulfilling the commission, preach to all the world, and that means it is not a exclusive message just for Jews, nor is it one message for Gentiles and one message for Jews... as priests of God, the message is the same for all believers... and that is what is missing.


The gospel is the same for all people.

But, there are cultural differences which means the presentation changes based on who you are talking to.

One of my favorite verses is when Paul used the temple of the unknown god to explain Jesus. This was a hook into the culture of the area and would never have communicated the right message if said to a Jewish community.

I have been out in areas which have a high Jewish traffic. Of course, there will be Gentiles there too. Although I am there to share the gospel with the Jewish people, I also have Gentiles curious about me, a Jew who is out talking about Jesus the Jewish Messiah. I share the gospel with Gentiles also. And one of the more amazing times, I had 3 very tall and large Muslim men approach me, wanting to know about a Jew who believed in Jesus. I was literally backed up to a wall, and I was nervous at first, until I realized these men were asking real and honest questions. So, I shared the gospel with these men too.

But, I am less effective in sharing about the Messiah in some instances because me and the person I am talking to are so culturally different. Missionaries actually are required to study the culture they are sent to, if they are not a member of that ethnic or cultural group. But today, most missionary boards try to hire evangelists who are already a part of that group or culture.

Because of cultural differences, I talk to believers from different cultures to understand the best way to share the gospel with people of that culture, just in case I meet someone of that culture.
 
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Qnts2

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I think it's time that this conversation be moved to Building Bridges. It should never have been brought to this home page, it's against the new rules that we have. Building Bridges is just for that, outreach.

That is ashame, as what I am putting forward is Messianic Judaism. I have posted the statements from the MJAA membership application form. So in effect, these are real Messianic Judaism discussions.

Messianic Judaism is first and foremost an outreach with the gospel.

And it has been effective.

What it is not is One Law Messianic, which does not have sharing the gospel with the Jewish people as the number one priority.
 
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visionary

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That is ashame, as what I am putting forward is Messianic Judaism. I have posted the statements from the MJAA membership application form. So in effect, these are real Messianic Judaism discussions.

Messianic Judaism is first and foremost an outreach with the gospel.

And it has been effective.

What it is not is One Law Messianic, which does not have sharing the gospel with the Jewish people as the number one priority.
That is your opinion:thumbsup:
 
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Henaynei

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I'm goy. I've been in MJism nearly 30 years. In not a few congregations lead by leadership in the movement.

Sad to say but in the numerous congregations to which we have belonged the Gentiles DO try to change or control, they certainly complain and campaign lamenting that the synagogue is "too Jewish."

It is a rerun of what happened 2000 years ago. They want to decide what parts of Judaism they like and what parts are just too difficult or inconvenient.

What I have seen is Messianic Jews in this movement, leadership and laity, who have welcomed Gentiles into their congregations, only to have these Gentiles insist that they too are really Jews because they are "not second class citizens," refusing to "take a back seat" to the Jews in the congregation. BUT...

The only "second class citizens" or "taking a back seat" was in the minds of the Gentiles. No, they were warmly embraced by their Jewish brothers. But constant are the claims from Gentiles that they are ostracized in these congregations, kept from being "full members." And why? Because they insist that they be allowed to participate in services and Judaica usage in a way that no intelligent Gentile would ask of a non-Messianic synagogue.

Even so, most congregations took such criticism to heart and tried to teach the Gentiles how to use the Judaica and how to participate in Torah services. All this at the very real (and sadly proven true) risk of the Jewish members losing all creditability with and therefore the platform to bring the Jewish Messiah to their families and the Jewish community because Gentiles wear talitot, handle the Torah and are counted in the minion in their synagogues.

To what avail?
1) to have the Gentiles tell them they are doing it wrong
2) to be berated and belittled by these Gentiles for following the Oral Torah: for keeping kosher and Shabbat - all the while as the Gentiles wear talitot and kippot, while they affix mezuzot to their doors and light the khanukiot - ALL rabbinic!
3) to be accused of being "to Jewish," elitist, unbiblical, unloving and killing with the letter of the Law - not being lead of the Spirit If the Jewish person dares to suggest that tzitzit are not worn on belt loops, or little smokies and beans are not appropriate for oneg, or doing the Dance of the seven Worship Scarves before the Ark is inappropriate - especially when the dancer ends the dance on her knees and face with her [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] up in the air toward the Ark, or that women in the congregation should not touch the Torah when processed and are only called for aliyot to read from the K'tuvi Shalialhim.

All I can say to my fellow Gentiles is, we should repent! Messianic Judaism IS Jewish! We Gentiles have some thousand variations of Christianity in which to find a community, the Jews only one.
WHY, must we insist AGAIN on making their one, one like ours? Why must we take theirs away from them again? Didn't we shame ourselves badly enough some 2000 years ago? Haven't we barred the Jew from serving his Messiah AS a Jew, the way that selfsame Messiah and His disciples all did, for too many centuries?

Being different, having a different calling IS NOT BEING INFERIOR!!!! Being a woman instead of a man, being a slave/employee instead of a Master/Employer, being a Gentile instead of a Jew - none are superior OR inferior, merely different, but definitely different!
 
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NealOFA

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Yes we, gentiles must repent or do teshuvah (turn back to Adonai). We need to start obeying Adonai, and stop being lukewarm towards Him. Lukewarm people blindly believe whatever teachings their pastors instruct them and never verify against the Scriptures whether what their pastors are saying.
 
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etZion

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I'm goy. I've been in MJism nearly 30 years. In not a few congregations lead by leadership in the movement.

Sad to say but in the numerous congregations to which we have belonged the Gentiles DO try to change or control, they certainly complain and campaign lamenting that the synagogue is "too Jewish."

It is a rerun of what happened 2000 years ago. They want to decide what parts of Judaism they like and what parts are just too difficult or inconvenient.

What I have seen is Messianic Jews in this movement, leadership and laity, who have welcomed Gentiles into their congregations, only to have these Gentiles insist that they too are really Jews because they are "not second class citizens," refusing to "take a back seat" to the Jews in the congregation. BUT...

The only "second class citizens" or "taking a back seat" was in the minds of the Gentiles. No, they were warmly embraced by their Jewish brothers. But constant are the claims from Gentiles that they are ostracized in these congregations, kept from being "full members." And why? Because they insist that they be allowed to participate in services and Judaica usage in a way that no intelligent Gentile would ask of a non-Messianic synagogue.

Even so, most congregations took such criticism to heart and tried to teach the Gentiles how to use the Judaica and how to participate in Torah services. All this at the very real (and sadly proven true) risk of the Jewish members losing all creditability with and therefore the platform to bring the Jewish Messiah to their families and the Jewish community because Gentiles wear talitot, handle the Torah and are counted in the minion in their synagogues.

To what avail?
1) to have the Gentiles tell them they are doing it wrong
2) to be berated and belittled by these Gentiles for following the Oral Torah: for keeping kosher and Shabbat - all the while as the Gentiles wear talitot and kippot, while they affix mezuzot to their doors and light the khanukiot - ALL rabbinic!
3) to be accused of being "to Jewish," elitist, unbiblical, unloving and killing with the letter of the Law - not being lead of the Spirit If the Jewish person dares to suggest that tzitzit are not worn on belt loops, or little smokies and beans are not appropriate for oneg, or doing the Dance of the seven Worship Scarves before the Ark is inappropriate - especially when the dancer ends the dance on her knees and face with her [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] up in the air toward the Ark, or that women in the congregation should not touch the Torah when processed and are only called for aliyot to read from the K'tuvi Shalialhim.

All I can say to my fellow Gentiles is, we should repent! Messianic Judaism IS Jewish! We Gentiles have some thousand variations of Christianity in which to find a community, the Jews only one.
WHY, must we insist AGAIN on making their one, one like ours? Why must we take theirs away from them again? Didn't we shame ourselves badly enough some 2000 years ago? Haven't we barred the Jew from serving his Messiah AS a Jew, the way that selfsame Messiah and His disciples all did, for too many centuries?

Being different, having a different calling IS NOT BEING INFERIOR!!!! Being a woman instead of a man, being a slave/employee instead of a Master/Employer, being a Gentile instead of a Jew - none are superior OR inferior, merely different, but definitely different!

From a cultural stand point, I completely agree... gentiles should not disrespect the Jewish culture, and should not seek to change it, especially within groups of Messianic congregations that want to adhere to those traditions, however deep they want to take them, but reality is no one should be trying to change anyone's cultural desires, whether Jewish, Hispanic, Chinese, etc, all should respect those issues.

The problem though cannot simply be pinned on culture, although I do know exactly of what you are talking about, people who hate others culture and desire to replace it with their own, especially gentiles who ignorantly fight against tradition as if it is 'all of the devil'... I don't ignore that some traditions can be harmful and I also am not ignoring the fact that Jews have a history and reason to be careful with gentiles, lol, the history has not proven well, and yes there should be repentance.

On the other hand, this is a doctrinal problem, I will use an example of what you said above:

We Gentiles have some thousand variations of Christianity in which to find a community, the Jews only one.

Although that sounds good, the reality is for gentiles and jews who adhere to a Torah observant life style, Christianity is not the answer for either, in fact, in many ways it is opposed... Thus communities if you will, on the outskirts of Christianity are formed to fit the need of what many of us believe to be what God intended as a proper biblical body... If you don't believe me, look at Messianic Judaism, why did they not simply create a Jewish church within the confines of Christianity, like Hispanics have done, maintaining Hispanic culture? The difference is there are doctrinal problems that cause them to separate, its bigger than simply some cultural differences, for example: replacement theology, or Jews who believed they did not need to abandon Judaism in order to follow the Messiah, well Christianity teaches otherwise, thus doctrinal problems arose, and thus a separate entity had to be created, which should not be the case, the Apostles never taught such, they saw one community, if for some reason the community does not meet the needs of believers for some reason there is a problem... And even more so if it does not meet the needs of our Jewish brethren, who are the originals, the reality is not to separate and keep gentiles in one place and jews in another, that is a dysfunctional family, the Apostles had communities of Jews and Gentiles together, they did not create separate communities, what we have today and if we have to continue this way, we are failing to implement what they fought so hard for.

Lets be honest, the faith Gentiles were coming to was Jewish in every way, the Messiah is Jewish in every way, He was not gentile, and neither did He teach gentile ways. He taught the ways of God, and upheld the Torah, and taught His disciples to carry everything He taught them to the nations, not to form a religion for gentiles, but for gentiles to come into a already existing religion. Not to become Jews, but to adopt God's ways... People mistakenly apply a ethnic cultural emphasis on the Torah, when the Torah is the word of God, the Torah is not Jewish, as if it is an invention of the Jews.

That is a brief summary with few examples, that barely even touches the surface...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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We Gentiles have some thousand variations of Christianity in which to find a community, the Jews only one.

Although that sounds good, the reality is for gentiles and jews who adhere to a Torah observant life style, Christianity is not the answer for either, in fact, in many ways it is opposed... Thus communities if you will, on the outskirts of Christianity are formed to fit the need of what many of us believe to be what God intended as a proper biblical body... If you don't believe me, look at Messianic Judaism, why did they not simply create a Jewish church within the confines of Christianity, like Hispanics have done, maintaining Hispanic culture? The difference is there are doctrinal problems that cause them to separate, its bigger than simply some cultural differences, for example: replacement theology, or Jews who believed they did not need to abandon Judaism in order to follow the Messiah, well Christianity teaches otherwise, thus doctrinal problems arose, and thus a separate entity had to be created, which should not be the case, the Apostles never taught such, they saw one community, if for some reason the community does not meet the needs of believers for some reason there is a problem... And even more so if it does not meet the needs of our Jewish brethren, who are the originals, the reality is not to separate and keep gentiles in one place and jews in another, that is a dysfunctional family, the Apostles had communities of Jews and Gentiles together, they did not create separate communities, what we have today and if we have to continue this way, we are failing to implement what they fought so hard for.

Lets be honest, the faith Gentiles were coming to was Jewish in every way, the Messiah is Jewish in every way, He was not gentile, and neither did He teach gentile ways...

Not really accurate, IMHO.




One cannot bring up the example of Messianic Judaism being a sign that Jews were not in the church/Christianity since many NEVER LEFT where they were and noted the reasons why was because it accurately reflected what it was that they saw within the early church and Jewish CHristianity. Not every church or camp within Christianity was for Replacement Theology or against Jewish practices--and it's not historically accurate to claim such. For there's a reason why many who are Jewish believers have come into the Messianic movement.....and later LEFT it when it seemed there was alot more hype on what was really "Jewish" within the camp. Some of this has been shared before here. Some has also been discussed by other Jewish believers involved in the Church, as shared if one chooses to go here or here....or here in #16 , #18, #21 , #133, #140 and#218


As it concerns Yeshua in his works with Gentiles, the Messiah was one who got into ALOT of trouble for his working with Gentiles....be it with the Samaritan woman and others in John 4 and Luke 9 /Luke 10:25-39 (on the "Good Samaritan" being approved of the Lord rather than Jews who thought they kept the Law)...or the Woman whose daughter was possessed by a demon in Matthew 15, or his referencing of the Widow in Sidon being provided for by Elijah...and Naaman the Syrian being healed by the prophet during his day.

G
Luke 4:12

Jesus Rejected at Nazareth

14Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised him. 16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."[]

20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."



22All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. "Isn't this Joseph's son?" they asked.
23Jesus said to them, "Surely you will quote this proverb to me: 'Physician, heal yourself! Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.' "



24"I tell you the truth," he continued, "no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah's time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27And there were many in Israel with leprosy[] in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian."

28All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him down the cliff. 30But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.

Jesus was quoting from Isaiah 61/Isaiah 61:1 , which pictures the deliverance of Israel from exile in Babylon as a Year of Jubilee when all debts are cancelled, all slaves are freed and all property is returned to its original owner (Leviticus 25/Leviticus 25:36 )....but the release from Babylonian exile had not brought the fufillment that the people had expected since they were still conquered...meaning Isaiah was a Messianic text---with the quoting if by Jesus to show that He was the One who'd bring the good news to pass...and in a way beyond what any of the people had been able to grasp---for the salvation in Zion was also going to go to others who were non-Jewish since it was a gift for all.

However, when Jesus quoted the text as all Jewish students do in synagouge, , the people did not believe him---and Jesus went further in enraging the people because He went on to say that God sometimes chose to reach the Gentiles rather than the Jews, implying that his hearers were indeed without faith because they were as unbelieving as the citizens of the Northern Kingdom of Israel in the days of Elisha and Elijah---a time notorious for its great wickedness.....and the continual actions of seeing God's Power/Works and yet using them for selfish gain rather than being inspired to change.

Not surprisingly, the Jews LITERALLY wanted to kill him after praising Gentiles (like Naaman the Syrian or the Widow who the prophet fed) in Luke 4/Matthew 4...as they felt that only Jews could have truth faith...but this was apart of prophecy


Alot is often forgotten whenever it comes to claims of supporting Jewish ideology and yet ignoring where the Torah itself already made clear Gentiles were never held to the same things as the Jews---and for those who read the book of Acts and see other Jewish Christians saying Gentiles HAD to keep the Law, the focus seems to always be on what was occurring then/assuming the way things were reflected how they were meant to be.

No one stops to think on how perhaps it was the case that there were many cultural assumptions about Gentiles that were never meant to be accepted....

The same thing occurred with the Lord himself. With Christ, others were threatened...and thus, his background was often used against him in POLITICAL ways more often than not. The leaders tried to trap him multiple times and get him in trouble with the government, as seen in Matthew 22 when came to their questioning Him.

But his upbringing is where they seemed to have the most issue.



Recall John 7:
John 7:37-53

Still others asked, “How can the Messiah come from Galilee? 42 Does not Scripture say that the Messiah will come from David’s descendants and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?” 43 Thus the people were divided because of Jesus. 44 Some wanted to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him.

Unbelief of the Jewish Leaders
45 Finally the temple guards went back to the chief priests and the Pharisees, who asked them, “Why didn’t you bring him in?”
46 “No one ever spoke the way this man does,” the guards replied.

47 “You mean he has deceived you also?” the Pharisees retorted. 48 “Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? 49 No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law—there is a curse on them.”

50 Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus earlier and who was one of their own number, asked, 51 “Does our law condemn a man without first hearing him to find out what he has been doing?”

52 They replied, “Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet does not come out of Galilee.”

[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]

53 Then they all went home,



The Pharisees that Jesus came against, often noted to be apart of the School of Shemi, were not accepting of Gentiles....and this is not surprising since the School of Shemai taught such. Thus, using their authorities, they often tried to silence anything that was supportative of Gentile praise. Its one of the reasons they came in conflict with Christ---as with him being more in line with the School of Hilel, he would have been very much opposed to Him. Though they could claim nothing good came out of Nazareth/Galilee, they could only reinforce that thought if they skipped over what the Prophets had already said.


As said of Galilee by Isaiah:
Isaiah 9: 1
Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress.
In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan.
What the Pharisees did not tell the people was that yes in the past God did humble the land of Zebulun but in the future God will honour Galilee of the Gentiles.....and the future had arrived, as the Messiah was from Galilee---The One place that many Ethocentric Jews just could not stand.


For as much as the Pharisees (minus the godly ones, such as Nicodemus---a secret follower of Christ) and Saducess would say Christ was illegitimate due to his upbringing, they had no real basis...and their desire to kill Jesus was birthed out of how he was really challenging their biases/prejudices toward certain groups. When they said "Examine the Scriptures.....you will see that out of Galilee there ariseth no prophet!!!!", it was a reflection of something that often happens in history when certain groups deliberately leave out the stories of where other groups have made contributions---and then all precedding generations afterward believe the lie. For the Pharisees were simply false in their claims (as were others agasinst Galilee) since Jonah was of Gathheper, in Galilee ( 2 Kings 14:25, compared with Joshua 19:13). As said before, Jonah was a prophet from Galilee (Gath-hepher) who counseled Jeroboam II in his successful conflict with the Syrians...making our date for the prophet Jonah to be that of 786-746 B.C.E. During Jeroboam II's reign, the boundaries of Israel reached the former limits of David's kingdom. And a new threat arose in the move of Assyria as it expanded and swalloed up kingdoms. Jonah came from Galilee to prophesy during expansion of Israel under Jeroboam II. ..and as the story of Jonah shows, God responded compassionately to Israel

Outside of Jonah, other prophets came from the "Ghetto" of Israel. In example, the Prophet Nahum was also a Galilean ( (Na 1:1) ), for he was of the tribe of Simeon. And some suppose that Malachi was of the same place. If that wasn't enough, the greatest of the prophets was Elijah the Tishbite (1 Kings 17:1)---and even HE was of Galilee. Either they were unaware of scripture as they were teaching--or they were BLANTANTLY putting up a BOLD Front due to desiring to maintain the "color line" in the Jewish world when it came to hating to admit any of the contributions other ethnic/cultural groups in the Jewish world could bring.....no more different than today if saying two sub-groups in a larger culture are fighting (i.e. West Indian Blacks and Black Hispanics of the Americas and African Blacks) and one side has power....but refuses to publish where another group has made significant impact in the world.

Others may disagree...but I think there's enough room within the Word to show where Gentiles were not only included within Yeshua's teachings--but told they were beautiful to the Lord WITHOUT it being the case that they had to become Jewish in order to have acceptance.
 
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visionary

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Yes we, gentiles must repent or do teshuvah (turn back to Adonai). We need to start obeying Adonai, and stop being lukewarm towards Him. Lukewarm people blindly believe whatever teachings their pastors instruct them and never verify against the Scriptures whether what their pastors are saying.
:clap: amen
 
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visionary

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From a cultural stand point, I completely agree... gentiles should not disrespect the Jewish culture, and should not seek to change it, especially within groups of Messianic congregations that want to adhere to those traditions, however deep they want to take them, but reality is no one should be trying to change anyone's cultural desires, whether Jewish, Hispanic, Chinese, etc, all should respect those issues.

The problem though cannot simply be pinned on culture, although I do know exactly of what you are talking about, people who hate others culture and desire to replace it with their own, especially gentiles who ignorantly fight against tradition as if it is 'all of the devil'... I don't ignore that some traditions can be harmful and I also am not ignoring the fact that Jews have a history and reason to be careful with gentiles, lol, the history has not proven well, and yes there should be repentance.

On the other hand, this is a doctrinal problem, I will use an example of what you said above:

We Gentiles have some thousand variations of Christianity in which to find a community, the Jews only one.

Although that sounds good, the reality is for gentiles and jews who adhere to a Torah observant life style, Christianity is not the answer for either, in fact, in many ways it is opposed... Thus communities if you will, on the outskirts of Christianity are formed to fit the need of what many of us believe to be what God intended as a proper biblical body... If you don't believe me, look at Messianic Judaism, why did they not simply create a Jewish church within the confines of Christianity, like Hispanics have done, maintaining Hispanic culture? The difference is there are doctrinal problems that cause them to separate, its bigger than simply some cultural differences, for example: replacement theology, or Jews who believed they did not need to abandon Judaism in order to follow the Messiah, well Christianity teaches otherwise, thus doctrinal problems arose, and thus a separate entity had to be created, which should not be the case, the Apostles never taught such, they saw one community, if for some reason the community does not meet the needs of believers for some reason there is a problem... And even more so if it does not meet the needs of our Jewish brethren, who are the originals, the reality is not to separate and keep gentiles in one place and jews in another, that is a dysfunctional family, the Apostles had communities of Jews and Gentiles together, they did not create separate communities, what we have today and if we have to continue this way, we are failing to implement what they fought so hard for.

Lets be honest, the faith Gentiles were coming to was Jewish in every way, the Messiah is Jewish in every way, He was not gentile, and neither did He teach gentile ways. He taught the ways of God, and upheld the Torah, and taught His disciples to carry everything He taught them to the nations, not to form a religion for gentiles, but for gentiles to come into a already existing religion. Not to become Jews, but to adopt God's ways... People mistakenly apply a ethnic cultural emphasis on the Torah, when the Torah is the word of God, the Torah is not Jewish, as if it is an invention of the Jews.

That is a brief summary with few examples, that barely even touches the surface...
With a word of caution for both sides [Jewish or Gentile traditions] no tradition should void the Word of God... I am all for keeping traditions, and expect to see it reflected in His kingdom, which will be reflected in the different parts of the world that the Lord gives the different bodies of people. It will make for an interesting world to visit as we visit the different nations in His Kingdom. What will be basic for all nations will be His Order of things, His Way prevailing through out all nations, His Laws permeating through the lives of all nations, and yet the individuality can be reflected in their area, in the clothing, in the instruments they play, some of the songs and dance they come up with.

They will all come to Jerusalem :bow::bow::bow::clap::clap::clap::amen::amen::amen:for the Feasts and Sabbaths, they will all eat Kosher,
and come to worship Him. :bow::bow::bow::clap::clap::clap::amen::amen::amen:
 
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Qnts2

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From a cultural stand point, I completely agree... gentiles should not disrespect the Jewish culture, and should not seek to change it, especially within groups of Messianic congregations that want to adhere to those traditions, however deep they want to take them, but reality is no one should be trying to change anyone's cultural desires, whether Jewish, Hispanic, Chinese, etc, all should respect those issues.

The problem though cannot simply be pinned on culture, although I do know exactly of what you are talking about, people who hate others culture and desire to replace it with their own, especially gentiles who ignorantly fight against tradition as if it is 'all of the devil'... I don't ignore that some traditions can be harmful and I also am not ignoring the fact that Jews have a history and reason to be careful with gentiles, lol, the history has not proven well, and yes there should be repentance.

On the other hand, this is a doctrinal problem, I will use an example of what you said above:

We Gentiles have some thousand variations of Christianity in which to find a community, the Jews only one.

Although that sounds good, the reality is for gentiles and jews who adhere to a Torah observant life style, Christianity is not the answer for either, in fact, in many ways it is opposed... Thus communities if you will, on the outskirts of Christianity are formed to fit the need of what many of us believe to be what God intended as a proper biblical body... If you don't believe me, look at Messianic Judaism, why did they not simply create a Jewish church within the confines of Christianity, like Hispanics have done, maintaining Hispanic culture? The difference is there are doctrinal problems that cause them to separate, its bigger than simply some cultural differences, for example: replacement theology, or Jews who believed they did not need to abandon Judaism in order to follow the Messiah, well Christianity teaches otherwise, thus doctrinal problems arose, and thus a separate entity had to be created, which should not be the case, the Apostles never taught such, they saw one community, if for some reason the community does not meet the needs of believers for some reason there is a problem... And even more so if it does not meet the needs of our Jewish brethren, who are the originals, the reality is not to separate and keep gentiles in one place and jews in another, that is a dysfunctional family, the Apostles had communities of Jews and Gentiles together, they did not create separate communities, what we have today and if we have to continue this way, we are failing to implement what they fought so hard for.

Lets be honest, the faith Gentiles were coming to was Jewish in every way, the Messiah is Jewish in every way, He was not gentile, and neither did He teach gentile ways. He taught the ways of God, and upheld the Torah, and taught His disciples to carry everything He taught them to the nations, not to form a religion for gentiles, but for gentiles to come into a already existing religion. Not to become Jews, but to adopt God's ways... People mistakenly apply a ethnic cultural emphasis on the Torah, when the Torah is the word of God, the Torah is not Jewish, as if it is an invention of the Jews.

That is a brief summary with few examples, that barely even touches the surface...

Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the Mosaic law.

Why is Messianic Judaism not called Christianity?

That starts out and remains mainly cultural. Anti-semitic Gentiles often call the Jewish, Christ killers. When I was young, and wondered outside of the Jewish neighborhood, and a Gentile came up to me and asked if I was a Jew, if I said yes, the next words usually contained the term Christ killer, and sometimes it got worse and physical.

In Nazi Germany, the Jews were killed while the Nazis yelled Christ killer.

So, to many Jewish people, the term Christ is a term which is definitely not viewed positively. It has become a curse word in Jewish culture. Christ actually means the same as Messiah, and the term Messiah is a Jewish term, and has positive meaning and specific meaning. So when people say Jesus Christ, it sounds bad to me, but when someone says Jesus the Messiah, that not only has meaning, but is full of prophesy, and good news.

Also, Jewish people in Christian churches also have issues sometimes. When I first attended a church, and was going to celebrate Passover, I was challenged that I was keeping the law. That is also cultural, as the Christian church is fashioned after Gentile culture. Easter is the Gentile way to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus. Passover and first fruits wave offering is the Jewish way to celebrate and remember the death and resurrection of Jesus. While some might object to Easter, I don't have that issue. Easter to me is not pagan, just foreign.

So, Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law. Many Messianic Judaism congregations do not keep the law, but they do meet on Shabbat, and celebrate the High Holy days. And do worship in a fashion familiar to most Jewish people and Jewish culture.
 
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visionary

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Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the Mosaic law.

Why is Messianic Judaism not called Christianity?

That starts out and remains mainly cultural. Anti-semitic Gentiles often call the Jewish, Christ killers. When I was young, and wondered outside of the Jewish neighborhood, and a Gentile came up to me and asked if I was a Jew, if I said yes, the next words usually contained the term Christ killer, and sometimes it got worse and physical.

In Nazi Germany, the Jews were killed while the Nazis yelled Christ killer.

So, to many Jewish people, the term Christ is a term which is definitely not viewed positively. It has become a curse word in Jewish culture. Christ actually means the same as Messiah, and the term Messiah is a Jewish term, and has positive meaning and specific meaning. So when people say Jesus Christ, it sounds bad to me, but when someone says Jesus the Messiah, that not only has meaning, but is full of prophesy, and good news.

Also, Jewish people in Christian churches also have issues sometimes. When I first attended a church, and was going to celebrate Passover, I was challenged that I was keeping the law. That is also cultural, as the Christian church is fashioned after Gentile culture. Easter is the Gentile way to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus. Passover and first fruits wave offering is the Jewish way to celebrate and remember the death and resurrection of Jesus. While some might object to Easter, I don't have that issue. Easter to me is not pagan, just foreign.

So, Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law. Many Messianic Judaism congregations do not keep the law, but they do meet on Shabbat, and celebrate the High Holy days. And do worship in a fashion familiar to most Jewish people and Jewish culture.
Amen... in a fashion familiar...
 
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I'm goy. I've been in MJism nearly 30 years. In not a few congregations lead by leadership in the movement.

Sad to say but in the numerous congregations to which we have belonged the Gentiles DO try to change or control, they certainly complain and campaign lamenting that the synagogue is "too Jewish."

It is a rerun of what happened 2000 years ago. They want to decide what parts of Judaism they like and what parts are just too difficult or inconvenient.

What I have seen is Messianic Jews in this movement, leadership and laity, who have welcomed Gentiles into their congregations, only to have these Gentiles insist that they too are really Jews because they are "not second class citizens," refusing to "take a back seat" to the Jews in the congregation. BUT...

The only "second class citizens" or "taking a back seat" was in the minds of the Gentiles. No, they were warmly embraced by their Jewish brothers. But constant are the claims from Gentiles that they are ostracized in these congregations, kept from being "full members." And why? Because they insist that they be allowed to participate in services and Judaica usage in a way that no intelligent Gentile would ask of a non-Messianic synagogue.

Even so, most congregations took such criticism to heart and tried to teach the Gentiles how to use the Judaica and how to participate in Torah services. All this at the very real (and sadly proven true) risk of the Jewish members losing all creditability with and therefore the platform to bring the Jewish Messiah to their families and the Jewish community because Gentiles wear talitot, handle the Torah and are counted in the minion in their synagogues.

To what avail?
1) to have the Gentiles tell them they are doing it wrong
2) to be berated and belittled by these Gentiles for following the Oral Torah: for keeping kosher and Shabbat - all the while as the Gentiles wear talitot and kippot, while they affix mezuzot to their doors and light the khanukiot - ALL rabbinic!
3) to be accused of being "to Jewish," elitist, unbiblical, unloving and killing with the letter of the Law - not being lead of the Spirit If the Jewish person dares to suggest that tzitzit are not worn on belt loops, or little smokies and beans are not appropriate for oneg, or doing the Dance of the seven Worship Scarves before the Ark is inappropriate - especially when the dancer ends the dance on her knees and face with her [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] up in the air toward the Ark, or that women in the congregation should not touch the Torah when processed and are only called for aliyot to read from the K'tuvi Shalialhim.

All I can say to my fellow Gentiles is, we should repent! Messianic Judaism IS Jewish! We Gentiles have some thousand variations of Christianity in which to find a community, the Jews only one.
WHY, must we insist AGAIN on making their one, one like ours? Why must we take theirs away from them again? Didn't we shame ourselves badly enough some 2000 years ago? Haven't we barred the Jew from serving his Messiah AS a Jew, the way that selfsame Messiah and His disciples all did, for too many centuries?

Being different, having a different calling IS NOT BEING INFERIOR!!!! Being a woman instead of a man, being a slave/employee instead of a Master/Employer, being a Gentile instead of a Jew - none are superior OR inferior, merely different, but definitely different!

Very well said!!!!!!!!!
 
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etZion said:
From a cultural stand point, I completely agree... gentiles should not disrespect the Jewish culture, and should not seek to change it, especially within groups of Messianic congregations that want to adhere to those traditions, however deep they want to take them, but reality is no one should be trying to change anyone's cultural desires, whether Jewish, Hispanic, Chinese, etc, all should respect those issues.

The problem though cannot simply be pinned on culture, although I do know exactly of what you are talking about, people who hate others culture and desire to replace it with their own, especially gentiles who ignorantly fight against tradition as if it is 'all of the devil'... I don't ignore that some traditions can be harmful and I also am not ignoring the fact that Jews have a history and reason to be careful with gentiles, lol, the history has not proven well, and yes there should be repentance.

On the other hand, this is a doctrinal problem, I will use an example of what you said above:

We Gentiles have some thousand variations of Christianity in which to find a community, the Jews only one.

Although that sounds good, the reality is for gentiles and jews who adhere to a Torah observant life style, Christianity is not the answer for either, in fact, in many ways it is opposed... Thus communities if you will, on the outskirts of Christianity are formed to fit the need of what many of us believe to be what God intended as a proper biblical body... If you don't believe me, look at Messianic Judaism, why did they not simply create a Jewish church within the confines of Christianity, like Hispanics have done, maintaining Hispanic culture? The difference is there are doctrinal problems that cause them to separate, its bigger than simply some cultural differences, for example: replacement theology, or Jews who believed they did not need to abandon Judaism in order to follow the Messiah, well Christianity teaches otherwise, thus doctrinal problems arose, and thus a separate entity had to be created, which should not be the case, the Apostles never taught such, they saw one community, if for some reason the community does not meet the needs of believers for some reason there is a problem... And even more so if it does not meet the needs of our Jewish brethren, who are the originals, the reality is not to separate and keep gentiles in one place and jews in another, that is a dysfunctional family, the Apostles had communities of Jews and Gentiles together, they did not create separate communities, what we have today and if we have to continue this way, we are failing to implement what they fought so hard for.

Lets be honest, the faith Gentiles were coming to was Jewish in every way, the Messiah is Jewish in every way, He was not gentile, and neither did He teach gentile ways. He taught the ways of God, and upheld the Torah, and taught His disciples to carry everything He taught them to the nations, not to form a religion for gentiles, but for gentiles to come into a already existing religion. Not to become Jews, but to adopt God's ways... People mistakenly apply a ethnic cultural emphasis on the Torah, when the Torah is the word of God, the Torah is not Jewish, as if it is an invention of the Jews.

That is a brief summary with few examples, that barely even touches the surface...

It is much more than just culture. And I don't agree that Jewish congregations need to adjust to accommodate Gentile members.
Gentiles should not handle the Torah scroll, no woman should touch a Torah scroll, Gentiles should not be counted in a minion and no Jewish congregation should have to make excuses for scrutinizing and being strict about food brought to gatherings because some Gentiles refuse to abide by even p'[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] kashrut, etc.

Neither should there be any conflict or resistance, rather teachability, humility and repentance, when Jewish members point out that certain Judaica are being misused or should not be used by Gentiles.

True, we are supposed to be one community with our brother Christians. True, MJism should and does welcome those Gentiles who are humbly teachable and take on the mantle of Torah and halakah. This what R Sha'ul envisioned when he said that "they will hear Torah taught every Shabbat."

Gentiles who feel they have a scriptural mandate to observe Torah differently than their Jewish brothers and/or reject Oral Torah should NOT do so within a Jewish congregation - they would not do that in a non-Messianic Jewish congregations, WHY is it ok to do so in Messianic ones? They either need to accept the limitations in a Jewish congregation because they are Gentiles or create congregations where they can practice their convictions.

Again... Limitations do NOT mean second class! Different roles and rules do NOT mean second class. Men and women mutually have limitations, they also have different roles and rules. That does NOT mean either one is better/lesser, superior/second class.
 
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I'm goy. I've been in MJism nearly 30 years. In not a few congregations lead by leadership in the movement.

Sad to say but in the numerous congregations to which we have belonged the Gentiles DO try to change or control, they certainly complain and campaign lamenting that the synagogue is "too Jewish."

It is a rerun of what happened 2000 years ago. They want to decide what parts of Judaism they like and what parts are just too difficult or inconvenient.

What I have seen is Messianic Jews in this movement, leadership and laity, who have welcomed Gentiles into their congregations, only to have these Gentiles insist that they too are really Jews because they are "not second class citizens," refusing to "take a back seat" to the Jews in the congregation. BUT...

The only "second class citizens" or "taking a back seat" was in the minds of the Gentiles. No, they were warmly embraced by their Jewish brothers. But constant are the claims from Gentiles that they are ostracized in these congregations, kept from being "full members." And why? Because they insist that they be allowed to participate in services and Judaica usage in a way that no intelligent Gentile would ask of a non-Messianic synagogue.

Even so, most congregations took such criticism to heart and tried to teach the Gentiles how to use the Judaica and how to participate in Torah services. All this at the very real (and sadly proven true) risk of the Jewish members losing all creditability with and therefore the platform to bring the Jewish Messiah to their families and the Jewish community because Gentiles wear talitot, handle the Torah and are counted in the minion in their synagogues.

To what avail?
1) to have the Gentiles tell them they are doing it wrong
2) to be berated and belittled by these Gentiles for following the Oral Torah: for keeping kosher and Shabbat - all the while as the Gentiles wear talitot and kippot, while they affix mezuzot to their doors and light the khanukiot - ALL rabbinic!
3) to be accused of being "to Jewish," elitist, unbiblical, unloving and killing with the letter of the Law - not being lead of the Spirit If the Jewish person dares to suggest that tzitzit are not worn on belt loops, or little smokies and beans are not appropriate for oneg, or doing the Dance of the seven Worship Scarves before the Ark is inappropriate - especially when the dancer ends the dance on her knees and face with her [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] up in the air toward the Ark, or that women in the congregation should not touch the Torah when processed and are only called for aliyot to read from the K'tuvi Shalialhim.

All I can say to my fellow Gentiles is, we should repent! Messianic Judaism IS Jewish! We Gentiles have some thousand variations of Christianity in which to find a community, the Jews only one.
WHY, must we insist AGAIN on making their one, one like ours? Why must we take theirs away from them again? Didn't we shame ourselves badly enough some 2000 years ago? Haven't we barred the Jew from serving his Messiah AS a Jew, the way that selfsame Messiah and His disciples all did, for too many centuries?

Being different, having a different calling IS NOT BEING INFERIOR!!!! Being a woman instead of a man, being a slave/employee instead of a Master/Employer, being a Gentile instead of a Jew - none are superior OR inferior, merely different, but definitely different!

Good Word...and many thanks for sharing it :)
 
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Anti-semitic Gentiles often call the Jewish, Christ killers. When I was young, and wondered outside of the Jewish neighborhood, and a Gentile came up to me and asked if I was a Jew, if I said yes, the next words usually contained the term Christ killer, and sometimes it got worse and physical.

In Nazi Germany, the Jews were killed while the Nazis yelled Christ killer.

.

To see the ways that the term "Christ" was hijacked to do evil in Germany is a tragedy---but just as cars should not be used anymore due to drunk drivers messing it up, so it is (IMHO) with the term "Christ" instead of Messiah. To many Jews, they often have used both and I've been told by others I've talked to that the actions of others should not be the basis for what our reactions are.

In Germany, while there are many saying the Jews were "Christ Killers", others did not take the stance that the term "Christ" was not to be utilized anymore. Of course, many of the churches in Germany did great error in aiding the Nazi regime and viewing the Jews wrongly...and the consequences are still here today. The Messianic Jewish brothers at Rosh Pina Project did a great job of addressing the ways that the CHurch should have responded...seen here:

 
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etZion

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Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the Mosaic law.

No, it is not, no religion is simply about keeping Law... on the other hand, for Jews and Gentiles who want to maintain a Torah observant life style, Christianity did and does not offer that type of a community, in fact I would argue Christianity is against such, for these doctrinal reasons, there are such communities that are separated.

Why is Messianic Judaism not called Christianity?

Take for example Jews 4 Jesus, they still claim to be a Christian organization, they do not claim Messianic Judaism... they agree with the core doctrines and teachings of Christianity and sustain that within Christianity.

So, Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law. Many Messianic Judaism congregations do not keep the law, but they do meet on Shabbat, and celebrate the High Holy days. And do worship in a fashion familiar to most Jewish people and Jewish culture.

Keeping Shabbat or observing the high holy days, is generally considered Torah observance, no matter how deep that observance goes... this would be a doctrinal issue, even more so for those who adhere to a more strict adherence, something which they could not get in a Christian community...
 
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Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the Mosaic law.

Why is Messianic Judaism not called Christianity?

That starts out and remains mainly cultural. Anti-semitic Gentiles often call the Jewish, Christ killers. When I was young, and wondered outside of the Jewish neighborhood, and a Gentile came up to me and asked if I was a Jew, if I said yes, the next words usually contained the term Christ killer, and sometimes it got worse and physical.

In Nazi Germany, the Jews were killed while the Nazis yelled Christ killer.

So, to many Jewish people, the term Christ is a term which is definitely not viewed positively. It has become a curse word in Jewish culture. Christ actually means the same as Messiah, and the term Messiah is a Jewish term, and has positive meaning and specific meaning. So when people say Jesus Christ, it sounds bad to me, but when someone says Jesus the Messiah, that not only has meaning, but is full of prophesy, and good news.

Also, Jewish people in Christian churches also have issues sometimes. When I first attended a church, and was going to celebrate Passover, I was challenged that I was keeping the law. That is also cultural, as the Christian church is fashioned after Gentile culture. Easter is the Gentile way to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus. Passover and first fruits wave offering is the Jewish way to celebrate and remember the death and resurrection of Jesus. While some might object to Easter, I don't have that issue. Easter to me is not pagan, just foreign.

So, Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law. Many Messianic Judaism congregations do not keep the law, but they do meet on Shabbat, and celebrate the High Holy days. And do worship in a fashion familiar to most Jewish people and Jewish culture.

We are of a different brand. Very very few of us even use the term christ!! And the same number rarely use the term jesus (only when talking to those who don't know "the" Yeshua that we have come to know). We gentile Messianics are as far removed from the christian churches as we can be and still retain Yeshua in our lives. Outside of Messianic Judaism there is no place for us. Dear one, Jews are not the only ones who are having to find a home!
But in your looking you are overlooking and pushing out a group that is to your benefit. Sure we have done some stupid things, and will continue to do so if our elder brethren prefer to push us out rather than act like the big brothers and sisters that you should be. You should be shielding your little, younger siblings and helping us to grow as Yeshua is shielding and training us up.
 
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etZion

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Easy G (G²);59882585 said:
Not every church or camp within Christianity was for Replacement Theology or against Jewish practices--and it's not historically accurate to claim such. For there's a reason why many who are Jewish believers have come into the Messianic movement.....and later LEFT it when it seemed there was alot more hype on what was really "Jewish" within the camp.

Sure, what I said above was only a scratch on the surface, it is true that not all of Christianity has or does teach replacement theology, the only reason I pointed this out was to show that this is not simply a cultural discussion as many are erroneously trying to make it. On the other hand, it is true that if a person believed that keeping Torah as the Apostles did and believe that the communities the Apostles were maintaining as it was then from their point of view, then Christianity does not offer a place for such, thus this is not simply a cultural point of view, but a doctrinal point of view. And thus a need for separate communities, both scriptural and traditional.
 
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