Manischewitz Kosher 4 Gentiles?!?

[yedida]

Context? Matt.15 only refers to unwashed hands not to kosher and not kosher food, does it not(15:20)? The 72 were sent to Jews, no? So, the food reference is to quality and amount, not kosher or not kosher. Why do I think that? Christians are united in the dogma that Jesus was perfect when it came to the Torah observance. That's the line, ain't it?

Thank you. Those who wish to be disobedient have that option. But to chose to not obey Torah and to teach others to not obey carries with it the disapproval of Yeshus (Mat. 5:19).

 

[jcpro]

Thank you. Those who wish to be disobedient have that option. But to chose to not obey Torah and to teach others to not obey carries with it the disapproval of Yeshus (Mat. 5:19).

This is pretty basic and Jesus was not the first nor is the last Jew to disagree with the finer points of the halakha.

 

[yedida]

This is pretty basic and Jesus was not the first nor is the last Jew to disagree with the finer points of the halakha.

But he never broke what the Law actually said. And he even told his disciples to do whatever the leaders told them to do, just to not do as the leaders who demanded much of the laity but did little themselves.

 

[Lulav]

Just pull the mouse out and clean him up, he'll be fine.

The FDA has acceptable levels of contaminants in many items including fruits and spices. There is a list here: Defect Levels Handbook

You do realize you are jesting about one of G-ds commandments?

Help me understand please.

Halakhah are the traditions and rulings of the rabbis contained in the talmud. Some define it as all laws that Jews follow, both in the talmud and Tanakh.

And so that's one view Mark, Halakah means the way to walk and that is why we have been given the Torah so we know how to walk uprightly before our maker. But not every little thing was written down back then, I doubt we would be able to carry it around! Certain things were handed down through the priests from father to son. They were later written down because of the separation, the dispersion, so that they wouldn't be lost. The 'schools' of thought or interpretation of what is written down were common in Jesus' day. He even uses many of the sayings by the 'Rabbi's that would be understood. The 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' is not something that Jesus originated, but rather the father of the head of the Sanhedrin at that time, Hillel. It is not well known but he may have been a family member of Jesus' family.

That saying comes from this: "What is hateful to thee, do not unto thy fellow man: this is the whole Law; the rest is mere commentary"

Yeshua's way of saying it is:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’


All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

[Lulav]

Did Peter bring a salad to Cornelius' house? He couldn't even use the house salad dressing by that reasoning! I don't mean to demean with these comments but I can't think of anything more wrong than asking to bring a salad to a dinner invitation, showing up with said salad and not eating any of the food offerings of the host. This compulsion for a Messianic to be sooooo correct regarding dietary law is not observant of the freedom found in Yeshua. In fact, it goes against Yeshua and it goes against God's gift to us in Yeshua..

Well I guess in your eyes it is wrong, but is that what counts? Are we to put a human beings 'feeling's before those Commands of our creator?

So with this logic that would mean that if the person whose house you were visiting, the husband asked you to sleep with him, you would not decline as that would 'hurt his feelings'? I don't think you would, would you? But what objection would you use? Your beliefs, right? and they come from G-ds commandments do they not?

Pollution is pollution, be it from sexual contact or from ingestion of unclean.

What are we called to do?...we are called to be His disciples, to reach out to those who do not know Him, to be His representatives.

Do you understand what a disciple truly is? It is one that imitates the master. Yeshua ate Kosher, should we not do the same? If you can show me one passage where he did not, even after the resurrection then I will believe he annulled his Father's rules, but if not then........

Yeshua told His disciples, "If a town welcomes you, eat whatever is set before you and heal the sick." He also said when He sent out His disciples, "Don't take along any money, or a traveler's bag, or even an extra pair of sandals."

Yes, and they were sent to Israel. Do you think that they were all eating meats sacrificed to idols? Or having pig roasts?

I pretty much hear Yeshua adding that salad to His list especially since He said, "When you enter a town, don't move around from home to home. Stay in one place, eating and drinking what they provide you." How can we be Yeshua's representatives to the world when we are so consumed with dietary correctness? It's not salvific. Yeshua said "You are not defiled by what you eat but by what you say and do." And if Yeshua said that, we will not be confronted by God as to our failure to keep Kosher.

You seem to be having trouble with my salad, but he isn't saying that they should eat something that they shouldn't if they were offered it, he is basically saying to not move around from house to house. Actually by doing this they would be more familiar with that families practices to observe.

Let me ask you , how can we be representatives if we don't keep his commandments?

Sister, the conversation has already been started.

Perhaps I should reiterate that I don't disagree with Torah observance. I've gone on record here and elsewhere at CF to that effect. We are wrong, however, to allow dietary observance to be all consuming to the point that we put stumbling blocks before each other, a wall of separation between the Brothers and Sisters and become offensive to those whom we have been called to witness to but most importantly, to the point that we become disobedient to Yeshua who, at all times, was/is obedient to the Father.

The reason that it is spoken of so much is that it is something that we do on a daily basis, some three times a day. This is the perfect example for using as a non spoken witnessing tool. It is not a stumbling block at all, He designated plenty of things we can eat. And it does not put up a wall of separation, G-d put that wall there and we are not to be part of this world, as we are not to do as the nations do. There is a definate separation.

Think of this observant Jews and muslims honor G-d by not eating pork, yet Christians not only eat it but elevate it over other clean meats. I can't tell you how many Churches I've seen, especially of late, that have Ham Dinners or Pork Roasts. And it does not bring to mind a people obeying and loving the true G-d, but it brings to mind what the heathen anti-christ Antiochus Epiphanes IV did when he went into The only place called the House of G-d and slaughterd and offered a pig on the altar, to Zeus.

Food allergies aren't what's being discussed here although it would certainly be understandable to anyone if host food were declined on that basis.

Yes, they were being discussed and I brought it up. I have Celiac as does MMommy. It is not an allergy, it is a genetic disease. We absolutely cannot eat gluten or we can die a slow death.

It is funny that you think it is OK to decline to eat something, anything that you are offered on this basis, or what if you said, 'no I can't have any, I'm on a diet'? That would be acceptable but to decline because G-d said so is not? How backwards is that?

An allergy or a disease diet is above G-ds diet?

No, If I were to eat at someone's house that could not prepare something 'safe' for me to eat then I would only have the choice of either not eating with them or bringing my own food. If they want my company they should understand.

I think it is a very bad witness to put their 'feelings' over My G-d, and is in essence breaking the first commandment and the Shema. He comes first.

 

[xDenax]

I think it is a very bad witness to put their 'feelings' over My G-d, and is in essence breaking the first commandment and the Shema. He comes first.

I look at it a different way. We do sometimes need to consider another persons feelings, not to embarass them, etc. Surely taking care of God's creatures is a good way to serve him. That's my thought anyway.

 

[Lulav]

No. God didn't put examples of people in the sheet. He put examples of food on the sheet and told Peter to "kill and eat". While I understand what you are trying to say, it doesn't mesh with "kill and eat". Additionally, what did Peter then go and do?...he ate non-Kosher in Cornelius' house. That, too, does not mesh with your interpretation.

Dietary law is not mandatory. It's not salvific. Obedience to dietary law is honoring of God but in Yeshua, we don't need to be overly consumed by the Jewish tradition of it and we certainly aren't under rabbinical dietary additives.

No, read the prophets, the nations, the Goyim are represented by animals and birds, and even Yeshua is represented as a lion. Those weren't menu options. If this was food, then why didn't Peter eat from it?

Daniel especially gives a great example of the nations being represented by animals, it's called allegory.

You have nothing to say what Peter ate in Cornelius' house. And Cornelius was not a heathen. True he was a Gentile but he was a G-d fearer and they knew of the right and wrong ways. I doubt he was sacrificing pigs to roman gods and then offered this to Peter.

Did you know that over 1/3 of the Commandments given in the Torah are food related? I'd say that G-d is very concerned on food and what we do with it and what we eat and how we eat it.

 

[Lulav]

I look at it a different way. We do sometimes need to consider another persons feelings, not to embarass them, etc. Surely taking care of God's creatures is a good way to serve him. That's my thought anyway.

I did not mean to imply that we shouldn't take other's feeling into consideration, as the second it like the first but it shouldn't take priority over the first. Taking care of all creatures shows your love but it shouldn't be at the expense of what he thinks first.

That's why we have the Shema & V'ahavtah and then we have V'ahavta l'rei'acha kamocha.

 

[yedida]

Todah rabbah, Lulav!!

 

[ChavaK]

:o He didn't? What do you think that Kosher means? The word is Yiddish but it's meaning is that it is fit to eat according to G-d's standards.

Interestingly enough, the word "kosher" is found only once in the Tanach in
Esther 8:5....and it's actually not related to food:

ה וַתֹּאמֶר אִם-עַל-הַמֶּלֶךְ טוֹב וְאִם-מָצָאתִי חֵן לְפָנָיו, וְכָשֵׁר הַדָּבָר לִפְנֵי הַמֶּלֶךְ, וְטוֹבָה אֲנִי, בְּעֵינָיו--יִכָּתֵב לְהָשִׁיב אֶת-הַסְּפָרִים, מַחֲשֶׁבֶת הָמָן בֶּן-הַמְּדָתָא הָאֲגָגִי, אֲשֶׁר כָּתַב לְאַבֵּד אֶת-הַיְּהוּדִים, אֲשֶׁר בְּכָל-מְדִינוֹת הַמֶּלֶךְ

5. And she said, "If it please the king, and if I have found favor before him, and the matter is proper before the king, and I am good in his sight, let it be written to rescind the letters, the device of Haman the son of Hammedatha, the Agagite, which he wrote to destroy the Jews who are in all the king's provinces.

 

[ChavaK]

Sister, the conversation has already been started.

Perhaps I should reiterate that I don't disagree with Torah observance. I've gone on record here and elsewhere at CF to that effect. We are wrong, however, to allow dietary observance to be all consuming to the point that we put stumbling blocks before each other, a wall of separation between the Brothers and Sisters and become offensive to those whom we have been called to witness to but most importantly, to the point that we become disobedient to Yeshua who, at all times, was/is obedient to the Father.

I agree with you for Gentiles.....there is no need for them to follow the
kashrut standards of Jews.

 

[Lulav]

Interestingly enough, the word "kosher" is found only once in the Tanach in
Esther 8:5....and it's actually not related to food:

Yup, tis true, but the meaning of it used today is that it is something fit to eat according to the kashrut laws. And Kosher is an English word anyway so it wouldn't be found there necessarily. It also has other meanings and has become a word accepted into the English language with an even broader meaning of something that is correct or not. Close to the phrase of' something is rotten in the state of Denmark'. Of something not' up to code' or 'up to snuff'.

 

[Henaynei]

Interestingly enough, the word "kosher" is found only once in the Tanach in
Esther 8:5....and it's actually not related to food:

Yup, tis true, but the meaning of it used today is that it is something fit to eat according to the kashrut laws. And Kosher is an English word anyway so it wouldn't be found there necessarily. It also has other meanings and has become a word accepted into the English language with an even broader meaning of something that is correct or not. Close to the phrase of' something is rotten in the state of Denmark'. Of something not' up to code' or 'up to snuff'.

Point of order - the word is kasher, and it is found 3 times (still none are about food)
Translated: direct (1)
Ecclesiastes 10:10

Translated: prosper (1)
Ecclesiastes 11:6

Translated: right (1)
Esther 8:5
In connection with food the most oft used word is tahor/clean.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Well I guess in your eyes it is wrong, but is that what counts? Are we to put a human beings 'feeling's before those Commands of our creator?

Absolutely not, however, I don't think Yeshua was disobedient to God's commands, do you?
"Then he called the crowd again and said to them, ‘Listen to me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a person that by going in can defile, but the things that come out are what defile.’ When he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about the parable. He said to them, ‘Then do you also fail to understand? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile, since it enters, not the heart but the stomach, and goes out into the sewer?’ (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, ‘It is what comes out of a person that defiles. For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.’ " Mark 7:14-23

So with this logic that would mean that if the person whose house you were visiting, the husband asked you to sleep with him, you would not decline as that would 'hurt his feelings'? I don't think you would, would you? But what objection would you use? Your beliefs, right? and they come from G-ds commandments do they not?
Pollution is pollution, be it from sexual contact or from ingestion of unclean.

I'll let the Lord reiterate here: "It is what comes out of a person that defiles. For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

Do you understand what a disciple truly is? It is one that imitates the master. Yeshua ate Kosher, should we not do the same? If you can show me one passage where he did not, even after the resurrection then I will believe he annulled his Father's rules, but if not then........

Do you think Yeshua would have sent out His disciples to do what He would not have? I don't. And then there is the Scripture as found in Mark. It's quite clear.

Yes, and they were sent to Israel. Do you think that they were all eating meats sacrificed to idols? Or having pig roasts?

Really? You think Samaria was part of Israel? We know for a fact that Yeshua went there and Scripture states that He sent the seventy-two out to every city and place He was going to and that He was sending them as lambs among wolves which meant they weren't going to just the Israelites.

You seem to be having trouble with my salad, but he isn't saying that they should eat something that they shouldn't if they were offered it, he is basically saying to not move around from house to house. Actually by doing this they would be more familiar with that families practices to observe.

Let's try this again: "Into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat the things that are set before you."

Let me ask you , how can we be representatives if we don't keep his commandments?

Mark 7:14-23????????

The reason that it is spoken of so much is that it is something that we do on a daily basis, some three times a day. This is the perfect example for using as a non spoken witnessing tool. It is not a stumbling block at all, He designated plenty of things we can eat. And it does not put up a wall of separation, G-d put that wall there and we are not to be part of this world, as we are not to do as the nations do. There is a definite separation.

Obedience is a great witness tool however, the dietary law is no longer still in effect, per Yeshua and obedience to it for the sake of salvation is wrong. Are you implying that it isn't? There are Christians, Jews and pagans. In Yeshua there is no wall of separation, however, I agree that there is God's call for believers to be separate from unbelievers. That has nothing to do with the dietary law.

Think of this observant Jews and muslims honor G-d by not eating pork, yet Christians not only eat it but elevate it over other clean meats. I can't tell you how many Churches I've seen, especially of late, that have Ham Dinners or Pork Roasts. And it does not bring to mind a people obeying and loving the true G-d, but it brings to mind what the heathen anti-christ Antiochus Epiphanes IV did when he went into The only place called the House of G-d and slaughterd and offered a pig on the altar, to Zeus.

Who cares what Muslims do? Pagan dietary law is of no concern to us and should certainly have no impact on the Jewish community as the Muslim god is not the One True God.

Observant Jews?....they had better be observant if they are still counting on obedience to the law for their salvation as opposed to accepting Yeshua HaMessiach. Considering Yeshua's words as found in Mark, those churches you find so disobedient, aren't. In Yeshua there is no Jew or Gentile; there's only Christians and they are one. Those people you are likening to the heathen anti-Christ Antiochus Epiphanes IV are your Brothers and Sisters in the Body of Yeshua. Romans 14:17-23 "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by me. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

Yes, they were being discussed and I brought it up. I have Celiac as does MMommy. It is not an allergy, it is a genetic disease. We absolutely cannot eat gluten or we can die a slow death.

I meant the Kosher dietary law. I also meant no disparagement toward anyone with food allergies; anaphylactic, hereditary/genetic etc. and I think that was clear.

It is funny that you think it is OK to decline to eat something, anything that you are offered on this basis, or what if you said, 'no I can't have any, I'm on a diet'? That would be acceptable but to decline because G-d said so is not? How backwards is that?

Not backwards at all if you accept God's word as found in Scripture.

An allergy or a disease diet is above G-ds diet?

There is no God mandated diet anymore in Yeshua. You can choose to be obedient to God's dietary law if you want to but it has no bearing on your salvation whatsoever per Yeshua.

No, If I were to eat at someone's house that could not prepare something 'safe' for me to eat then I would only have the choice of either not eating with them or bringing my own food. If they want my company they should understand.

Again, I was referring to dietary laws, not food allergies, hereditary or otherwise.

I think it is a very bad witness to put their 'feelings' over My G-d, and is in essence breaking the first commandment and the Shema. He comes first.

So your post was really about the dietary law then and not your food allergies, hereditary or otherwise? I would think that diminishing or just flat not believing the words of Yeshua would be more along the lines of breaking the first commandment. As far as the Shema is concerned, I have only ever stated there is One True God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Jerushabelle]

No, read the prophets, the nations, the Goyim are represented by animals and birds, and even Yeshua is represented as a lion. Those weren't menu options. If this was food, then why didn't Peter eat from it?

Where in Scripture are Gentiles represented by or equated to animals and birds? And certainly in the context of Peter's vision, "kill and eat" would not have applied to Gentiles. Yeshua wasn't represented as a lion in that vision. Peter didn't eat from it because it was a vision.

Daniel especially gives a great example of the nations being represented by animals, it's called allegory.

Context in Scripture is everything.

You have nothing to say what Peter ate in Cornelius' house. And Cornelius was not a heathen. True he was a Gentile but he was a G-d fearer and they knew of the right and wrong ways. I doubt he was sacrificing pigs to roman gods and then offered this to Peter.

Cornelius and his family were not saved until they received Yeshua as Messiach.

Did you know that over 1/3 of the Commandments given in the Torah are food related? I'd say that G-d is very concerned on food and what we do with it and what we eat and how we eat it.

Not since Yeshua, at least not for those who believe in Him.

 

[aniello]

Where in Scripture are Gentiles represented by or equated to animals and birds? And certainly in the context of Peter's vision, "kill and eat" would not have applied to Gentiles. Yeshua wasn't represented as a lion in that vision. Peter didn't eat from it because it was a vision.




Context in Scripture is everything.



Cornelius and his family were not saved until they received Yeshua as Messiach.



Not since Yeshua, at least not for those who believe in Him.

May wish to refer to the SoF and SoP regarding debating and teaching in this forum as to who may and who may not debate and/or teach.

 

[Jerushabelle]

May wish to refer to the SoF and SoP regarding debating and teaching in this forum as to who may and who may not debate and/or teach.

I did, long before I started posting here.
I have made it known that I am a First Century (Messianic) Christian.
I have not violated the SoF or the SoP.
You are upset with me for what reason?...putting forth God's word just as it is and accepting it or for looking to Yeshua for my salvation as opposed to dietary law? We either believe what Yeshua said or we don't.

 

[jcpro]

...putting forth God's word just as it is and accepting it or for looking to Yeshua for my salvation as opposed to dietary law? We either believe what Yeshua said or we don't.

I'm not a MJ, but even I can see a false choice being offered by you. As far as I understand, the essence of MJ is following of both-the Torah and the Christian Messiah.

 

[Lulav]

Point of order - the word is kasher, and it is found 3 times (still none are about food)
Translated: direct (1)
Ecclesiastes 10:10

Translated: prosper (1)
Ecclesiastes 11:6

Translated: right (1)
Esther 8:5
In connection with food the most oft used word is tahor/clean.

I realize what the word is, I really don't want to get into a debate about it though.

 

[Lulav]

I did, long before I started posting here.
I have made it known that I am a First Century (Messianic) Christian.
I have not violated the SoF or the SoP.
You are upset with me for what reason?...putting forth God's word just as it is and accepting it or for looking to Yeshua for my salvation as opposed to dietary law? We either believe what Yeshua said or we don't.

The main problem here Jerushabelle, is that we don't hold (at least most MJ's don't) that Jesus made all foods (including pork) clean to eat.

The reasons being

1. This is a redaction, it was added, meaning he did not say that , but this is someone's (most likely a Gentiles) interpretation of what he was talking about. This is an interpretation and theology that makes him a Gentile god and not the Jewish Messiah.

2. If he did indeed say this, it would be in violation of Torah, and the Pharissees would have been all over him for it. As in that scenario he was speaking to the Pharisees which were zealous to keep G-ds commandments.

3. If He did indeed say this then he could not be the Messiah, but rather a false messiah, and also would be contradicting his own self as he gave a very strong admonishment (which many choose to ignore) that he did not come to do away with the Torah, not the smallest amount!

4. You are carrying a cross icon which is a Christian icon and not Messianic. There are no Christian Messianics here, besides that would be redundant linguistically, it is not an established denomination.