Manischewitz Kosher 4 Gentiles?!?

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm not sure that is entirely true according to scripture.
Esau took bow/arrow to get venison for Yitzkakh.

Scripture actually tells us that we have to drain the blood and then cover the blood with earth when we hunt. That is more information than is given about domestic slaughter.


Bible Verses about Hunting


Genesis 27:3 ESV
Now then, take your weapons, your quiver and your bow, and go out to the field and hunt game for me,

Genesis 27:5 ESV
Now Rebekah was listening when Isaac spoke to his son Esau. So when Esau went to the field to hunt for game and bring it,

Genesis 27:33 ESV
Then Isaac trembled very violently and said, "Who was it then that hunted game and brought it to me, and I ate it all before you came, and I have blessed him? Yes, and he shall be blessed."


Genesis 10:9 ESV
He was a mighty hunter before the L-rd. Therefore it is said, "Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the L-rd."


Genesis 21:20 ESV
And G-d was with the boy (David), and he grew up. He lived in the wilderness and became an expert with the bow.


Leviticus 17:13 ESV
"Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth.


1 Timothy 4:1-5 ESV
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that G-d created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by G-d is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of G-d and prayer.

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I have worked with wild hoof stock. Are you aware that hunters are killed by them every year? Are you aware that it is their hooves that kill more than their antlers? It is like street fighting a fellow with four thrashing long sharp blades.
One can not safely "catch and slaughter without shooting." A frightened or defensive deer or elk or sheep or goat or buffalo is an extremely dangerous animal. You can't just walk to them and say "excuse me, but I'm going to cut your throat now."
Above are some scriptures that show that bow and arrow were used for hunting. Also the Leviticus 17 where G-d says what is done after you hunt your game.
Snares, nets, traps were used by the fowler to catch birds - see Psalms and Proverbs.
In this day and age very few Jewish people have to depend on wild game for there meat. And for many who want game meats there are now farmed deer and other hoof stock.
But when moving West in the 1800's or when for centuries they lived in wild unsettled areas - such as when living in the desert, Jewish people have hunted and they used weapons to hunt.

Thanks for the quotes.

BTW, I used to farm Elk, and while handling all livestock can be dangerous, Elk and Deer require very much more caution! Having worked with them, and being familiar with the meat packing industry here in Canada; it is doubtful that any of our Kosher kill facilities would be able to handle elk and deer.

MM,
You are right about current halakah on hunting.
I was merely point out that the halakah was different in the past due to circumstances.
Maybe today Jewish hunters could use tranquilizers to put the animal down safely and then slaughter... But that would make very sleepy dinner guests due to getting their dose from the meat
Perhaps halakah would be different for observant folk living where wild was their only source of good protein

I find this very confusing; does not the halakah on hunting contradict Scripture?

 

[Lulav]

I know of a Rabbi that hunts and while I don't like the practice and stay away from those kinds of things, I recall someone asking him about it. I think he said that you have to be very accurate so that the animal doesn't suffer. I don't remember where he said you had to shot it. I think you also have to dress it in the field and then take it and hang it to fully bleed out.

 

[pat34lee]

I find this very confusing; does not the halakah on hunting contradict Scripture?

Halakah often contradicts scripture.

 

[Lulav]

Halakah often contradicts scripture.

That's only because you don't understand it.

pat34lee, were you going to answer any of my questions in this post or am I waiting in vain?

 

[jcpro]

Thanks for the quotes.

BTW, I used to farm Elk, and while handling all livestock can be dangerous, Elk and Deer require very much more caution! Having worked with them, and being familiar with the meat packing industry here in Canada; it is doubtful that any of our Kosher kill facilities would be able to handle elk and deer.



I find this very confusing; does not the halakah on hunting contradict Scripture?

Simple and easy answer is that hunting kosher animals for food is not prohibited by neither Torah nor Talmud. Hunting for sport is a violation of both.

 

[pat34lee]

That's only because you don't understand it.

pat34lee, were you going to answer any of my questions in this post or am I waiting in vain?

I answered the post. If you mean am I going to go point by point, no. Most of the items you listed, I already knew. Most of the others don't apply as items I don't eat. I rarely eat fish other than tuna, whitefish or haddock, and occasionally, salmon.

Did you know that capsules for vitamins and both prescription and over the counter drugs are made from non-kosher gelatin?

No matter how careful you are in checking your food and other household products, there will be non-kosher ingredients in something. As long as we do our best to ensure that what we use is clean, the rest is covered by being forgiven for unintentional sins.

 

[Henaynei]

I depend on venison for a sizable portion of my family's protein.
Hunters in this area have a ministry called Hunters for the Hungry.
They have partnered with a local USDA butcher and families in need can get venison for about $1.00/lb that covers the cost of butchering, packaging and storing.
True, I don't know how it has been handled before it got to the butcher but kosher meat of any kind is unavailable in this area. At least this is local and I personally know the butcher. Meat from the megamart in of unknown origin, unknown handling, unknown age and if ground of unknown composition, AND is much more expensive.
When we lived in Florida I traveled an hour to our kosher store, happily. We kept strictly kosher and got all our meat fresh, from there.{ I miss my butcher!}
Where we live now it is a 6+ hour round trip to the only kosher store in North Carolina and their frozen meats are over double what they were in Florida.
With my current income of less than $600/month getting kosher meat shipped to us at $8.00/lb plus shipping is totally out of reach.

 

[Lulav]

I answered the post. If you mean am I going to go point by point, no. Most of the items you listed, I already knew. Most of the others don't apply as items I don't eat. I rarely eat fish other than tuna, whitefish or haddock, and occasionally, salmon.

Did you know that capsules for vitamins and both prescription and over the counter drugs are made from non-kosher gelatin?

No matter how careful you are in checking your food and other household products, there will be non-kosher ingredients in something. As long as we do our best to ensure that what we use is clean, the rest is covered by being forgiven for unintentional sins.

Well since you only mentioned fish, I am assuming your tuna is in a can? How do you know it is tuna? that is had scales and fins? Some fish can mimic others. How do you consider it being unintentional when it is possible for you to be sure?

As far as vitamins I get all my vitamins at KosherVitamins.com. The glocosamine my husband takes is not from shellfish. Any capsules are kosher gelatin (vegetable). You can find what is kosher for OTC here.

I only take Bayer children's aspirin as I can't take many other OTC's because I have Celiac disease.

I have to know the ingredients in everything I put in my mouth either by intention or not, such as shampoo even. If I can take this kind of precaution to guard my health, why not my allegiance and love towards G-d?


I mean can you imagine, you get before the throne and He says to you, 'So you can take hours and hours to study up on what is healthy to eat, and what your body can take for good health, but you can't make sure what you put into your mouth is Kosher?'

An unintentional food sin to me is riding in a boat, motorcycle, open vehicle and talking and having a bug fly into your mouth and swallow before you can spit it out.

 

[yonah_mishael]

That's only because you don't understand it.

+1

 

[pat34lee]

Well since you only mentioned fish, I am assuming your tuna is in a can? How do you know it is tuna? that is had scales and fins? Some fish can mimic others. How do you consider it being unintentional when it is possible for you to be sure?

I just checked the cans, and all the tuna is kosher. Barring that, it's hard to mimic having fins and scales if they don't have them.

If I can take this kind of precaution to guard my health, why not my allegiance and love towards G-d?

Because he didn't ask us to keep kosher; only to eat clean foods which he listed for us.

I mean can you imagine, you get before the throne and He says to you, 'So you can take hours and hours to study up on what is healthy to eat, and what your body can take for good health, but you can't make sure what you put into your mouth is Kosher?'

An unintentional food sin to me is riding in a boat, motorcycle, open vehicle and talking and having a bug fly into your mouth and swallow before you can spit it out.

As I said, it's up to us to determine whether a food is clean to the best of our ability, but it is not always possible or practical (as when eating out or at another's house). You cannot even breathe without inhaling some dust, along with particles of everything around you.

 

[yedida]

I just checked the cans, and all the tuna is kosher. Barring that, it's hard to mimic having fins and scales if they don't have them.



Because he didn't ask us to keep kosher; only to eat clean foods which he listed for us.



As I said, it's up to us to determine whether a food is clean to the best of our ability, but it is not always possible or practical (as when eating out or at another's house). You cannot even breathe without inhaling some dust, along with particles of everything around you.

Why is it not possible when eating out either at a restaurant or a friend's? I do both, I ask questions at the restaurant and my friend's don't find it difficult for that one night to avoid the things that I wouldn't use at home (as far as being Biblically kosher only goes).

 

[pat34lee]

Why is it not possible when eating out either at a restaurant or a friend's? I do both, I ask questions at the restaurant and my friend's don't find it difficult for that one night to avoid the things that I wouldn't use at home (as far as being Biblically kosher only goes).

What I meant is that you can't read labels and check how food is prepared when you don't make it. You have to take someone else's word what is in the food.

 

[Lulav]

I just checked the cans, and all the tuna is kosher. Barring that, it's hard to mimic having fins and scales if they don't have them.

Most all the major brands of tuna have kosher certification, but your store brands and off brands may not. The point I was making is not that you can mimic fins and scales but if you buy fish that has been filleted and skinned and you only have the flesh it is difficult to tell. Or worse yet a fish cake could contain all kinds of things.

Because he didn't ask us to keep kosher; only to eat clean foods which he listed for us.

:o He didn't? What do you think that Kosher means? The word is Yiddish but it's meaning is that it is fit to eat according to G-d's standards. You seem to think there is only a list to follow and nothing about related things such as for vegetables or grain, not to be grown in a mixed field. When you can harvest and when you can eat from them. Other things such as what to do if a mouse falls in your cooking pot or dough bowl. Some things you are not supposed to eat end up naturally and by man's intervention in your food. Such as hot dogs for instance did you know that according to the FDA it is considered permissible for them to contain, not only pork but various insects (including roaches) rat feces, and parts I just don't want to talk about.

As I said, it's up to us to determine whether a food is clean to the best of our ability, but it is not always possible or practical (as when eating out or at another's house). You cannot even breathe without inhaling some dust, along with particles of everything around you.

That is why you eat at a kosher resturant. As far as eating at anothers home, just like if you had any other special diet you should proceed accordingly. If your host is making nothing but seafood(shellfish) and pork then ask if you can bring a salad and eat that. I'm sure you won't starve (if you are afraid you will then eat something before you leave to go there).

 

[pat34lee]

Other things such as what to do if a mouse falls in your cooking pot or dough bowl. Some things you are not supposed to eat end up naturally and by man's intervention in your food. Such as hot dogs for instance did you know that according to the FDA it is considered permissible for them to contain, not only pork but various insects (including roaches) rat feces, and parts I just don't want to talk about.

Just pull the mouse out and clean him up, he'll be fine.

The FDA has acceptable levels of contaminants in many items including fruits and spices. There is a list here: Defect Levels Handbook

 

[Henaynei]

From the very beginning, from the giving of the Law at Sinai, interpretations have been needed. Below is the beginning of "the men of the Great Assembly," aka eventually the Sanhedrin and "the rabbis."

Exodus 18:13 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening. 14 And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even? 15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to inquire of G-d: 16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do rmake them know the statutes of G-d, and his laws. 17 And Moses' father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good. 18 Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone. 19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and G-d shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to G-d-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto G-d: 20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do. 21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear G-d, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: 22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee. 23 If thou shalt do this thing, and G-d command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace. 24 So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said. 25 And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens. 26 And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Halakah often contradicts scripture.

That's only because you don't understand it.

Help me understand please.

 

[pat34lee]

Help me understand please.

Halakhah are the traditions and rulings of the rabbis contained in the talmud. Some define it as all laws that Jews follow, both in the talmud and Tanakh.

 

[MessianicMommy]

What I meant is that you can't read labels and check how food is prepared when you don't make it. You have to take someone else's word what is in the food.

Why is it not possible when eating out either at a restaurant or a friend's? I do both, I ask questions at the restaurant and my friend's don't find it difficult for that one night to avoid the things that I wouldn't use at home (as far as being Biblically kosher only goes).

Actually, one CAN read labels and check how the food's prepared when you don't make it. You NEVER have to take someone else's word on what is in the food.

As a Celiac, if we go out to eat I have to ask constant questions, and if I am uncomfortable - we do not eat there. I can't afford to be sick from little particles people can't even see. (Cross contamination or accidental contamination)

While we do not have kosher labeling on our food, I can check behind it and see where and how it's made, and whether or not it is acceptable thanks to a handy-dandy list we were given which lists what additives (which MUST be declared) are and are not ok.

I do not generally as a rule eat at other people's homes, because they do not know how to take care of our issues. I have had only one friend who did, and we brought our own pots/pans and utensils to cook with.

Even before going gluten free, I was able to ask at restaurants what ingredients were in things and ask to see the label or speak with the chef. There aren't a whole lot of kosher restaurants in certain parts of North America, so that means every person must make their own determination if they can or cannot eat out at x restaurant.

I will say however, in no way shape or manner is Waffle House ever acceptable. Lard goes on everything touching their grills.

 

[Henaynei]

Yes, but...
Due to patent laws there is always "spices", "flavorings", and "other" ingredients. All of which remain unspecified to protect manufacturers formulas and recipes.

 

[MessianicMommy]

It depends on the country and laws though.

With food allergies being really big in the EU, and better understanding of celiac related issues, and Halal/Kosher issues - things like that must be declared if someone has a need to know. Gelatin says if it is pork, fish (what kind), or beef. It's required due to the BSE outbreak over 15 years ago. Certain food items are made vastly differently than back in the US due to the complicated food laws here. And if it doesn't say explicitely on the package in German, it usually does in Arabic. (I've checked behind a few brands of marshmallows before that are from the US but did not have English descriptions with much information on them - they did in Arabic though!!)

Lobbys have a hold over the FDA and government when it comes to how food ingredients and other commercial ingredients are declared by companies, and it will take people pushing for change for it to happen, especially related to food allergies and religious/conscience based dietary requirements. (Halal, Kosher, Vegetarian/vegan)

Here, if it says "spices" it has to declare WHAT spices, and if they have mustard contamination (due to high allergies) If it says "Flavoring" it has to declare from what animal, whether it's smoked, and whether gluten is involved as far as anti-caking.

Due to the very high Muslim minority, most places cater towards food that is acceptable across culture, which means no pork, shellfish or other unclean (non-Kosher, non-halal) things in a variety of certain company products. They may not be listed as strictly halal, but the ingredients and how things are handled in their company are suitable for both dietary needs.

If certain fats are used, they have E-additive numbers that let you know if it is or is not kosher/halal. If certain food additive colors are used, that E number lets you know if it is carmine or some other icky bug in there. Basically if it has color added and does not say it is from plant only, it's not something we can have.

GF bread is generally dairy and egg free (not always, but mostly what the family and I like) and do not use any porcine or bug-related additives. They also are wheat starch free and don't rely on spices outside of yeast, baking powder/soda, guar/xanthan gum, psyllium or cream of tartar. They are all fit for Vegans (except those with the dairy) which gives an added assurance of no lard being used in the facilities that manufacture.

Same for cookies and such. Everything is very clearly labeled, and if it's organic - it says so very prominently.

Everything is non-GMO here unless stated otherwise (certain companies are semi-GMO here, but laws have been passed to cause that to end, and BASF just halted all operations involving plant life here last month) Between Greenpeace and similar conscientious groups, understanding of where food comes from and what happens to it before it ends up in your home is very high. Animals have their own "passport" from farm to slaughterhouse, and you can track their health and what they've had done to them prior to it ending up in your food supply.

It's not as easy as having heschers (maybe if we lived IN Frankfurt or München or Berlin this would be different), but it is easier than simply taking company word/line/email in the US and Canada.

Due to our needs, everything pre-packaged requires a call/email to the company for detailed information if it is not on the package, before it makes its way home. This involves a lot of time to do any shopping. Believe you me, after 7+ years of label reading, it's become an art in speed reading and quick reaction time.

There are many candies here that are off limits that are not back in the US (due to them having heschers and knowing they ARE kosher). Unless it's imported American candy with a hescher clearly on it, or it's made only with the stated ingredients and no additives, it's off-limits here. That means no M&Ms (carmine among other things), no Smarties (Carmine and other things), nothing with shellack (bug), and being very careful with anything else along those lines. I've pretty much decided if it's not Milka/Kraft and not Ferrero - we're making it at home. This also means that McDonald's ice cream is limited only to plain ice cream or that with chocolate sauce ONLY.
Besides 2 German brand ice creams, the only other acceptable brand is Ben and Jerry's which does have a hescher.

Anything medical wise is screened through our doctor and pharmacy. They can check labels and if need be, compound things themselves. No pills or liquid medicine have any gluten, pork, shellfish, shellack or carmine. And yes, we have to ask and make sure they read and we read after them if there is a question every time.

Restaurants are almost completely out of the question due to the high cross contamination and pork issue. Unless they are very GF friendly and use separate pots/utensils etc especially for us, it's a no-go. And yes, that can make social interactions strained, but it does not have to.

Since we make and take food already for almost everything, it's a fact of life for us to bring food to social interactions, family meetings and even a day out at the park. We cannot rely on catering, so for our kindergarten stint, I "cater" every meal for my children - which means I have to meet what is on their menu as best as possible. We aren't the only ones either. One Muslim family cuts short the hours so their children do not have lunch, and iirc, the other supplies meals as well. Other children with food allergies also bring food from home.

I am very thankful that after kindergarten, school does not require/have lunch and kids will be home in time for lunch as a family every day, until high school. It takes a lot of load of worry over food related matters off my shoulders.


What I'm trying to say though, is that it does not have to be difficult, but it does involve people being very aware of what and how they are eating, as well as what companies they purchase from, and how they budget their meal planning and social interactions.

I don't know a whole lot of Americans who do not have food-issues (Vegan, Vegetarian, Kosher, Halal, Celiac, food allergies/intolerance) that are willing to do that. Most figure the company is looking out for them and well, they prayed over it, so it's ok.

To say how the bulk of the family (those who refuse food allergy testing and a celiac test though they need to have it due to close relation to us) think about food and how it can or can't make a person sick, most my family back home think that my health issues are psychological. The mentality is that if a doctor doesn't say it, and it's not promoted by doctors on TV and in the newspapers, it's not credible. No one would have those issues, even though doctors have a list online of what symptoms a person can have (Typical and atypical) with the disease.

Kosher? Halal? Vegetarian? Vegan? G-d made everything fit to be eaten. You don't like it, don't come over when we have food.

And if you know anything about Southern Hospitality, you always go to someone's house and get fed. Always.