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Manischewitz Kosher 4 Gentiles?!?

Lulav

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Hmm, Russia is not represented by a bear. It's two headed eagle.
Not sure what your sources are JC, but there have been various representations of Russia through the years and the bear is a staple. The two headed eagle is used on a heraldry shield which also contains a white horse.

170px-As_Between_Friends_%28Punch_magazine%2C_13_December_1911%2C_detail%29.jpg


Russian bear, British Lion and Persian cat

The Russian bear is a common national personification for Russia (as well as the Soviet Union). The brown bear is also Germany's and Finland's national animal.

Germany has a single headed black eagle so does Poland-except it's white.
I didn't put anything for Germany, but the Eagle was noted under the US. Which can be found on our sea,l which is also on our money.





Canada's animal symbol is beaver, btw.

I posted
Eagle -- USA
Bear----Russia
Lion-----UK or England
Kangaroo---Australia
Beaver---Canada
 
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mishkan

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You are correct. The belief that keeping Kosher is mandatory, which is held in some Messianic synagogues is actually a fairly recent thing. Maybe only about 10 years old.

And the belief that there is One law, is even newer and generally not accepted in most Messianic Jewish synagogues.
I'm not sure where you've been hiding, but both views have been around for at least 20 years. Maybe you're saying I invented them? :thumbsup:
 
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Jerushabelle

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Animals and birds representing nations or peoples

Modern day

Eagle -- USA
Bear----Russia
Lion-----UK or England
Kangaroo---Australia
Beaver---Canada
Panda --China (or more anciently the Dragon)
Wolf --Italy (he sent them out as sheep among wolves)
Elephant-- Laos
Bull ----Spain
Kiwi----New Zealand

And the list goes on. These nations can be represented by trees as well. And we see trees representing people in the Bible as well.

Here are a few

Japan---Cherry Blossom
USA----Oak
England---Oak
Greece and Italy---Olive
Canada---Maple

Sister, this goes beyond broad interpretation as it's not even in Scripture. This stuff comes from man, not God.

Now in the Bible we see where this got it's start
It's quite clear where this got its start.

From Daniel 7

And what does this mean? Daniel asks

There are more examples but this should suffice for now, also refer to Rev 13

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Peter's vision or the context.

Wasn't the dream about going to other nations

I never said that Yeshua was in that vision. I was giving an example of animals representing men.

"Kill and eat".... Really???

And Peter didn't eat from it but he went and ate with those represented. But that doesn't mean he didn't eat Kosher.

Of course God's vision to Peter was about reaching out to other nations. It goes without saying that for Peter to just associate with a Gentile or visit Gentiles would make him unclean but it also goes without saying that he could not have done so repeatedly without partaking of what they placed before him. Even back then it would have been considered rude to turn it down or bring ones own salad from a Jewish cultural standpoint. How receptive do you think a Gentile would have been to Yeshua once he was insulted? Scripture certainly doesn't state that Peter ate Kosher. "Kill and eat" does not imply that Peter was being instructed to kill Gentiles and eat them. Think again of God's word to us through Mark, "in saying this Jesus declared all foods 'clean.'" There is no other way to take what God has said. I realize this is upsetting to you and I'm sorry but God's word is clear to me and I believe it.
 
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Jerushabelle

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You are correct. The belief that keeping Kosher is mandatory, which is held in some Messianic synagogues is actually a fairly recent thing. Maybe only about 10 years old.

And the belief that there is One law, is even newer and generally not accepted in most Messianic Jewish synagogues.

I'm not sure where you've been hiding, but both views have been around for at least 20 years. Maybe you're saying I invented them? :thumbsup:

I think you are right Brother Mishkan because my first attempt to fellowship in Messianism was well over 20 years ago and the tendency to bring all the baggage from Judaism that Yeshua and Paul warned about was there way back then. There are small congregations that believe as I do all over. We are not the majority and we know it.
 
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yedida

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Sister, this goes beyond broad interpretation as it's not even in Scripture. This stuff comes from man, not God.

It's quite clear where this got its start.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Peter's vision or the context.

"Kill and eat".... Really???

Of course God's vision to Peter was about reaching out to other nations. It goes without saying that for Peter to just associate with a Gentile or visit Gentiles would make him unclean but it also goes without saying that he could not have done so repeatedly without partaking of what they placed before him. Even back then it would have been considered rude to turn it down or bring ones own salad from a Jewish cultural standpoint. How receptive do you think a Gentile would have been to Yeshua once he was insulted? Scripture certainly doesn't state that Peter ate Kosher. "Kill and eat" does not imply that Peter was being instructed to kill Gentiles and eat them. Think again of God's word to us through Mark, "in saying this Jesus declared all foods 'clean.'" There is no other way to take what God has said. I realize this is upsetting to you and I'm sorry but God's word is clear to me and I believe it.

Peter was at the home of Cornelius, a God-fearer. He was what is known today as B'nei Noach, he kept kosher.
If you believe that the redaction is permission for you to disregard God's word, that's fine....But do notice that those words (Thus Jesus declared all foods clean) are in parentheses and they are black, not read. It is a comment, a thought of some scribe copying the gospel. It isn't even in all the different versions.
 
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Not to mention, Peter himself clarified the vision, as to what it meant:

28 Peter told them, “You know it is against our laws for a Jewish man to enter a Gentile home like this or to associate with you. But God has shown me that I should no longer think of anyone as impure or unclean. 29 So I came without objection as soon as I was sent for. Now tell me why you sent for me.”

34 Then Peter replied, “I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism. 35 In every nation he accepts those who fear him and do what is right...
 
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Jerushabelle

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Peter was at the home of Cornelius, a God-fearer. He was what is known today as B'nei Noach, he kept kosher.
If you believe that the redaction is permission for you to disregard God's word, that's fine....But do notice that those words (Thus Jesus declared all foods clean) are in parentheses and they are black, not read. It is a comment, a thought of some scribe copying the gospel. It isn't even in all the different versions.


Sister Yedida, can you show me where in Scripture it says that Peter kept Kosher after Yeshua declared all foods clean?

I'm aware that what is in parenthesis is not in red however, Mark is considered God breathed Scripture en toto so it's not a thought of some scribe copying the gospel.
Here is a brief list of the versions, that I have, that it is in:
ESV
GW
NIV
MESSAGE (which I don't care for)
NAB
PHILLIPS
GNT
NKJV
RECOVERY
YLT
CEV
AMPLIFIED
NLT
HCSB
NASB
DARBY
This is interesting....ERV--Arabic
Even more interesting...ALA --That's the Arabic Life Application Bible
I could probably get you some more if you'd like.
The AENT, the official Messianic NT, states "which purifies all foods". I accept this.

Oops, here's another...my Reina-Valera translation which is Spanish.
 
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mfaust

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Yeshua was speaking to Jews
Yeshua was speaking about Torah vs Tradition
Yeshua was upholding his Fathers laws
Yeshua was showing the right way to interpret them
Yeshua never disobeyed the law
Yeshua never taught anyone else to disobey it
Yeshua, like his Father, did not change his mind or the Law

Admittedly this is my understanding as well. I have no problem considering there are still both Jew and Gentile. I am a Gentile but that does not mean anything bad afaik.
 
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Jerushabelle

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I know many Messianic Jews who don't agree with what you have put forth. I disagree with your assessment of me. Is there a set Messianic doctrine that you have the right to make such a declaration about me? Do you have the wisdom or right to tell me where I belong?
 
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Jerushabelle

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Somehow I missed that, but hey, it always bears repeating. His word never returns void. :)


:thumbsup:



yes. And I believe there is discussion within different denominational circles about what additions are from translators and not scribes, and often they are talked about in footnotes of our bibles. Not always are they in electronic versions such as E-sword, but they do sometimes come up in the commentaries. Very few who have understanding of the situation with a Hebraic mindset say that this passage had anything to do with reversal of Kashrut.

So he said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" Mark 7:18-20 NKJV

Notice, no parentheses.

They were getting all bent out of shape over Y'shua's disciples not washing their hands before they ate. It should also be noted that in the entire context of this debate between them, the subject matter at hand was food of any kind, not just meat, being defiled by unwashed hands. The question isn't about the Torah, but about a tradition. Second, its not a question about what may be eaten. It's about whether one may eat at all without a ritual handwashing.

It goes deeper than our translation, into the Greek and what words Peter used in the passage quoted from Acts as to "common" and "unclean".

Biblically Clean Foods - Here a little, there a little - Commentary


:thumbsup: Exactly.

While Paul says there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female - he is not negating status that is there, is always there and will be there until the end of the age; he is saying that G-d doesn't have favorites or deal differently with anyone because of their social standing or whether they're a man or woman. We're all humans and G-d relates to us on that angle. :sorry:

So you are setting Jews or those with a Hebraic mindset over other believers?

"When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Either we accept Jesus/Yeshua and His words or we don't.
In regard to your statement "Notice no parentheses" you are correct. Some translations have incorporated into the verse the declaration making all foods clean. Some translations even have the parenthetical in red.
 
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yonah_mishael

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Peter was at the home of Cornelius, a God-fearer. He was what is known today as B'nei Noach, he kept kosher.
If you believe that the redaction is permission for you to disregard God's word, that's fine....But do notice that those words (Thus Jesus declared all foods clean) are in parentheses and they are black, not read. It is a comment, a thought of some scribe copying the gospel. It isn't even in all the different versions.

I think we've had this discussion before. Whereas the words certainly are not written as coming out of the mouth of Jesus (which the translators often illustrate by not making them red and placing them in parenthesis), they are not the work of some nameless scribe any more than the rest of the gospel itself isn't the work of a nameless scribe (through, really all of the gospels are anonymous works). What I mean is that, the same person who wrote the narrative portions (non-dialog portions) of the gospel wrote these words. If you believe in the inspiration of the narratives regarding Jesus' resurrection, then you should accept this comment also as Scripture – it's written by the same author.

There are no major textual problems with this text, such as having this phrase not appear in any manuscript. The major difference among the manuscripts is whether to read it as καθαρίζων (meaning that he purified all foods) or as καθαρίζον (meaning that what he said purified all foods). Not one manuscript is just missing this phrase, which means that it shouldn't be seen as the work of a random scribe but as original to the text – and the work of the writer himself. There are no parentheses in the Greek text. It's the translator's way of saying that these are the words of the gospel writer rather than of Jesus himself.
 
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yedida

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Yes, I understand that. The gospels were most likely not written by the original disciples whose names they bear. But the words, whether in the original or not, do not purify all foods. Food wasn't what was being discussed. It was about ritual handwashing, not about eating unclean edibles.
 
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Jerushabelle

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Yes, I understand that. The gospels were most likely not written by the original disciples whose names they bear. But the words, whether in the original or not, do not purify all foods. Food wasn't what was being discussed. It was about ritual handwashing, not about eating unclean edibles.

"Kill and eat" is about handwashing, eh?
It's Yeshua Himself who approves the words of Mark, "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?"
 
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yonah_mishael

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"Kill and eat" is about handwashing, eh?
It's Yeshua Himself who approves the words of Mark, "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?"

I agree, which is not saying "no food can make a man impure" but "nothing that goes into the mouth can make a man impure." Those are two very different statements. You know?
 
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Henaynei

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MarkRohfrietsch said:
I think this may be Kosher:

It certainly is - though for some reason we can't get it any longer :(
DH enjoyed it.
 
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Henaynei

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Jerushabelle said:
Interesting Mark. Kind of a blasphemic brew ain't it?
Well.....it was conceived in San Francisco................

LOL
what is possibly blasphemous about that? :confused:
 
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