Just a quick question for law proponents.

[from scratch]

Ok, because the Genesis 26:5 discussion will cause to big an argument, we'll remove Abraham from the "saved by grace/kept Torah list"...let's turn then to David. Was David saved by grace through faith alone? (I'll answer for ya) ABSOLUTELY. Now after David was saved and placed "under grace" did David continue to keep the Torah of G-d? Did David sing it's praises? Did David say "blessed is the man who delights in the Torah of G-d? and blessed the man that walks in the Torah of G-d?"
Yes?
Why in the World would David continue to keep the Torah of G-d and observe it as a guide that teaches him to walk in G-d's ways, after he's already been imputed righteousness, and salvation??
Simple question. Simple answer - because the Torah of G-d teaches believers in G-d how to walk in His ways.

Doesn't the Scripture show David was saved (righteous) inspite of his sin (violation of the law)? This isn't keeping the law nor is it salvation through or being maintained by keeping the law. No I'm not promoting sin.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Interesting, isn't it?

I never heard Jesus refer to the "gentile dogs" as being of the devil....but I could be wrong

http://www.christianforums.com/t7613523/
We Gentiles are dogs ??

 

[tzadik]

Doesn't the Scripture show David was saved (righteous) inspite of his sin (violation of the law)? This isn't keeping the law nor is it salvation through or being maintained by keeping the law. No I'm not promoting sin.

Are you seriously proving that David wasn't saved by keeping the Torah?
I don't know how else to explain this to you....
David was saved WITHOUT having to keep a single commandment. Are we clear on that? ok. DAVID=SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH ALONE.

Alrighty NOW---David (the same David who is saved by grace and imputed righteousness from now until ETERNITY) that same David, AFTER salvation continue to KEEP the Torah of G-d. That same David said blessed is the man that delights in the Torah of G-d. Psalm 1:2. Blessed is the man who walks in the Torah of G-d. Psalm 119:1
Do you see...after he was "under grace" David continued keeping the Torah of G-d.

 

[tzadik]

But then if not following the law had no bearing salvation, or on the fact that they were more righteous than the followers of the law (would like an explanation on how that is), why do we need it?

The Torah of G-d teaches the people of G-d how to walk in the Ways of G-d. That might be the simplest explanation for keeping Torah. (that I can give)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Torah of G-d teaches the people of G-d how to walk in the Ways of G-d. That might be the simplest explanation for keeping Torah. (that I can give)

Don't the RCs and Protestants keep the Torah? And what makes your sect so high and mighty compared to theirs?

 

[Nanopants]

Are you seriously proving that David wasn't saved by keeping the Torah?
I don't know how else to explain this to you....
David was saved WITHOUT having to keep a single commandment. Are we clear on that? ok. DAVID=SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH ALONE.

Alrighty NOW---David (the same David who is saved by grace and imputed righteousness from now until ETERNITY) that same David, AFTER salvation continue to KEEP the Torah of G-d. That same David said blessed is the man that delights in the Torah of G-d. Psalm 1:2. Blessed is the man who walks in the Torah of G-d. Psalm 119:1
Do you see...after he was "under grace" David continued keeping the Torah of G-d.

It's interesting to note that within the Masoretic text, the same word for "Torah" is used here in this verse:

"because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." (Gen 26:5)

And yet, the set of laws contained within the collection of books commonly referred to as the "Torah" were not yet given at this point.

Are we to assume that Abraham followed that same set of laws which he had no knowledge of, or is it more likely that the word "Torah" does not necessarily refer to the set of laws given through Moses? What's going on here?

 

[tzadik]

Don't the RCs and Protestants keep the Torah? And what makes your sect so high and mighty compared to theirs?

This is not about high and mighty. I am not one to judge who is righteous before G-d and who is "righteouser". My job is simply to speak the truth of G-d in love. The Scriptures have taught me that His Word abides forever. Scriptures have taught me that The Torah of G-d is the Word of G-d. I have seen throughout Scripture how His Torah has been and continues to be a guide for believers, showing them how to walk in G-d's ways. Scriptures have also shown me that there are many "separations" and "divisions" (i.e. "church", "Christians", "Church age", "NT, "OT", "OT believers", "NT believers", rapture of the "church" vs "gathering of Israel") that do not have a true Scriptural basis.
I believe in One G-d. One Faith. One Baptism. One Spirit. One body. One Word. One Torah. One Seed. G-d doesn't change. His Word doesn't change.

 

[from scratch]

You don't get it. Torah is a guideline that teaches you how to walk in His ways. There was only one person who could keep the Torah perfectly without mistakes, and that's Yeshua. The Torah provides proper consequences, steps to correct and repent from the sin committed.
You need to really study Torah out a bit before you throw around fluff statements that you don't know anything about.
Sin is when you transgress the Torah- whether it's before or after salvation. When you sin (not IF you sin), His Word teaches you and shows you what steps you must take to repent and restore with your brother.
Catching someone sinning isn't enough to throw away the Torah of G-d. For it's the human being that has messed up. It's the human that has failed TOrah. The Torah itself is perfect! G-d's word is perfect!

Is sin only the violation of the law? How?

13For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom 5

16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. LK 16:16

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. I John 3

For comparison please read sin is also lack of faith -

23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Rom 14

Not only do we have the promise of God given through Jeremiah we also have -

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Gal 3

We are delivered from the law -

6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom 7

And we are told to throw the law out -

30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

We have a choice -

4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Gal 5

 

[Nanopants]

The Torah of G-d teaches the people of G-d how to walk in the Ways of G-d. That might be the simplest explanation for keeping Torah. (that I can give)

But Jesus said:

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (John 14:26)

So if the Mosaic law is supposed to teach us, why did Jesus make no mention of this, where He said the Spirit is our teacher? Furthermore, if that is its only purpose, but we have a better teacher, why do we need the Mosaic law?

 

[tzadik]

It's interesting to note that within the Masoretic text, the same word for "Torah" is used here in this verse:

"because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." (Gen 26:5)

And yet, the set of laws contained within the collection of books commonly referred to as the "Torah" were not yet given at this point.

Are we to assume that Abraham followed that same set of laws which he had no knowledge of, or is it more likely that the word "Torah" does not necessarily refer to the set of laws given through Moses? What's going on here?

Thank you! Finally someone else who sees that Torah does not automatically = LAW OF MOSES. The Word Torah itself is better defined from the Hebrew word as "teachings or instructions". The Torah of G-d is the Instructions of G-d. Do you see now how just that one tweak, CORRECT tweak changes so much??

Look at Exodus 16:28 for instance.

"Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?"

The word Torah here is correctly translated "instructions"

For many the Word Torah always means LAW of MOSES. This misconception produces even greater damage to the Word of G-d, when the Hebrew word Torah is translated to the greek "nomos" and this word nomos is ALWAYS translated as law in the "NT". So who knows if the word nomos (law) means instructions, law of moses, law of sin, law of death, gentile law, king's law...
yet everywhere many see the word "Law" they automatically assume it means Torah. This leads to grievous mistranslations, misinterpretations and twisting of the Word of G-d.

 

[Sieben]

love = fulfillment of the law

not living in love will make you die.

you arent justified by the law

you are justified by faith

now add in theology

 

[from scratch]

Scratch, I never said that people found grace through or by the law. My point is that though they were "under grace" they continued to keep the Torah of G-d. That point is indisputable.
You call them opposing forces because you are not seeing the Torah of G-d in the right light, as David, Moses, Paul and believers in the Scriptures saw it: as a guide, teaching them to walk in His ways. A guide for correction, reproof, instruction.

This is why David in Psalm 19:11 says "Moreover, by them Your servant is warned; In keeping them there is great reward." But the rest is up to us, with the help of His Spirit within us, whether or not we will listen, whether or not we walk in His ways (Psalm 119:1). David messed up, he knew it was wrong to covet, lie, heck David broke all 10 of the commandments when he sinned with Bathseba, the Torah showed --"warned him", yet he followed after his flesh and sinned. (broke the Torah) And with that came consequences. But the same Torah also taught Him how to restore His relationship with G-d.

You are desperatley trying to justify and prove obligation to the law for the Christian. We aren't under that covenant as testified to by Jesus (God) in Matthew, Mark and Luke and talked about in Hebrews as built on better promises which show a further difference between the covenants.

Your position is that of a renewed covenant not supported by Scripture.

You choose to ignore Gal 3:1-3 in you above statement.

 

[tzadik]

But Jesus said:

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (John 14:26)

So if the Mosaic law is supposed to teach us, why did Jesus make no mention of this, where He said the Spirit is our teacher? Furthermore, if that is its only purpose, but we have a better teacher, why do we need the Mosaic law?

Look at what Ezekiel 36:26-27 says about the Spirit/Torah relationship...

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God."

Yeshua came to show the spirit of the Torah.

 

[Nanopants]

Look at what Ezekiel 36:26-27 says about the Spirit/Torah relationship...

Yeshua came to show the spirit of the Torah.

As far as this goes, I can agree, and I believe that it is the law which Abraham followed, not having the written ordinances given through Moses, and the same law which Paul spoke of:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2)

...to those [who are] without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those [who are] without law; (1 Cr 9:21)

Which is why:

...if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Gal 5:18)

That is, the written law, not that there is no law for a believer.

 

[from scratch]

Frogster--i think i've proved ENOUGH times that this isn't about "coming into faith" or becoming saved, or anything like that. I don't understand why you continue to act like I'm claiming that anyone needs to do any work, commandment, or keep the Torah in order to "be saved" - "get under grace" etc.

And again you use your interpretation of Scripture and build your entire theology on this wrong interpretation.
Are you really saying that the Torah of G-d is not His righteousness?

No but you are to retain salvation which really is salvation by the law (works) and not faith.

I think the real problem is your view of sin being only the violation of the law. You fail to see and understand that sin is dealt with differently under grace (the NT). I suggest close attention to Gal 5 especially 19-21 on this point.

 

[tzadik]

As far as this goes, I can agree, and I believe that it is the law which Abraham followed, not having the written ordinances given through Moses, and the same law which Paul spoke of:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2)

...to those [who are] without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those [who are] without law; (1 Cr 9:21)

Which is why:

...if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Gal 5:18)

That is, the written law, not that there is no law for a believer.

Interesting points. I agree with most of your argument...cept for the last one--
So what you're saying is that G-d had two different "walks" for believers...
One in obedience to His Instructions (Torah) as David did and spoke highly of throughout Psalms, as Moses did, as Zechariah and Elizabeth did (in Luke 1:6), and a different walk --without having to follow and obey the Instructions of G-d ----after His death...(because now we no longer have to "consciously keep Torah" because we do it "spiritually" by walking in the Spirit?)

 

[from scratch]

This is my interpretation:
G-d is righteousness. G-d's Word is righteousness. G-d's Torah is righteousness.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:4
There is quite a bit in that short statement.

 

[tzadik]

No but you are to retain salvation which really is salvation by the law (works) and not faith.

I think the real problem is your view of sin being only the violation of the law. You fail to see and understand that sin is dealt with differently under grace (the NT). I suggest close attention to Gal 5 especially 19-21 on this point.

Again I never said that I maintain my salvation with keeping Torah. (and that if I didn't keep this next Sabbath holy..i'd lose my salvation)

And you are saying that when John (a believer) tells the believers in his letter that "sin is the transgression of the Law" he doesn't actually mean that sin is the violation of the law but something else....
Paul i believe also confirms this when he says...as a believer that he wouldn't know what "coveting" was if it wasn't for the Law of G-d showing him what is wrong and right.

 

[from scratch]

See that's where we part ways Scratch. You purport that salvation = righteousness and righteous=salvation.
So when you read verses like
Psalm 106:3 "How blessed are those who keep justice, Who practice righteousness at all times!"
Ezekiel 18:5, 22 "But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness...All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live."
Ezekiel 45:9 `Thus says the Lord GOD, "Enough, you princes of Israel; put away violence and destruction, and practice justice and righteousness. Stop your expropriations from My people," declares the Lord GOD."
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Romans 10:5 "For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness."
Matthew 6:1 "Practice not your righteousness before men"
1 John 2:29 "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him."
1 John 3:7, 10 "Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

When you read these do you consider the task at hand is to PRACTICE SALVATION...or something else?

Who then needs grace or Jesus?

 

[tzadik]

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:4
There is quite a bit in that short statement.

Starting with the fact that you wrongly translated the verse

the Greek word "telos" does NOT mean end, but rather goal...as in Messiah is the goal of the Torah of righteousness to everyone that believes.

This complies with what Yeshua HIMSELF said in John 5:46-47

"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Yeshua is the GOAL of all of Torah. Even you agree with that statement.
Your statement disagrees not only with All of Scriptures and His own words, but also with Matthew 5:17.
Again..Yeshua is the GOAL of the Torah.