Just a quick question for law proponents.

[from scratch]

As far as this goes, I can agree, and I believe that it is the law which Abraham followed, not having the written ordinances given through Moses, and the same law which Paul spoke of:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2)

...to those [who are] without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those [who are] without law; (1 Cr 9:21)

Which is why:

...if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Gal 5:18)

That is, the written law, not that there is no law for a believer.

Great preaching!

 

[tzadik]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7613900-12/#post59207437

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Look at what Ezekiel 36:26-27 says about the Spirit/Torah relationship...

Yeshua came to show the spirit of the Torah.

May we all be carried away by the spirit

http://www.christianforums.com/t7588850/
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

NKJV) Ezekiel 8:3 He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven,
and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the north gate of the inner [court,] where the seat of the image of jealousy [was,] which provokes to jealousy.

Reve 17:3 And he carries me away into a wilderness in spirit,
and I saw a Woman sitting on a beast, scarlet, being replete of names of blasphemy having heads, seven, and horns, ten. [Ezekiel 8:3]

 

[from scratch]

Interesting points. I agree with most of your argument...cept for the last one--
So what you're saying is that G-d had two different "walks" for believers...
One in obedience to His Instructions (Torah) as David did and spoke highly of throughout Psalms, as Moses did, as Zechariah and Elizabeth did (in Luke 1:6), and a different walk --without having to follow and obey the Instructions of G-d ----after His death...(because now we no longer have to "consciously keep Torah" because we do it "spiritually" by walking in the Spirit?)

No there are 2 different covenats with different jurisdictions.

And the word believer(s) strictly applies to Christians unless the context states otherwise. One can't be of the devil and a believer at the same time. LLoJ (bless his heart) already said that Jesus called Torah observing Jews children of the devil.

 

[from scratch]

Again I never said that I maintain my salvation with keeping Torah. (and that if I didn't keep this next Sabbath holy..i'd lose my salvation)

And you are saying that when John (a believer) tells the believers in his letter that "sin is the transgression of the Law" he doesn't actually mean that sin is the violation of the law but something else....
Paul i believe also confirms this when he says...as a believer that he wouldn't know what "coveting" was if it wasn't for the Law of G-d showing him what is wrong and right.

Did you even read that post? I highlighted the word also in my quote which you leave out. Why? I ask you as Paul does do you not hear the law? How about Deut 28:1? I don't even need Paul to show this. Do you also throw Moses?

 

[tzadik]

No there are 2 different covenats with different jurisdictions.

And the word believer(s) strictly applies to Christians unless the context states otherwise. One can't be of the devil and a believer at the same time. LLoJ (bless his heart) already said that Jesus called Torah observing Jews children of the devil.

Oh brother. Do the covenants change the way G-d wants us to walk in His ways?
"the word believers strictly applies to Christians unless the context states otherwise."
Was Abraham a believer?
Was David a believer?
Was John the Baptist a believer?
Were Zechariah and Elizabeth believers?
Was Moses a believer?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh brother.
"the word believers strictly applies to Christians unless the context states otherwise."
Was Abraham a believer?
Was David a believer?
Was John the Baptist a believer?
Were Zechariah and Elizabeth believers?
Was Moses a believer?

Don't forget our beloved Saul/Paul
Btw, isn't there some division within the MJ sect concerning Paul?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7589021-8/#post58443303
[REPORT FREE THREAD] staff/member(MJ members) discussion "Discrediting Paul"

 

[from scratch]

Starting with the fact that you wrongly translated the verse

I translated nothing in my post.

the Greek word "telos" does NOT mean end, but rather goal...as in Messiah is the goal of the Torah of righteousness to everyone that believes.

You don't understand word goal. When a goal is achieved it is the end of something achieved. In the case of the law it is over just as Luke stated in 16:16 which I quoted to you.

This complies with what Yeshua HIMSELF said in John 5:46-47

Yeshua is the GOAL of all of Torah. Even you agree with that statement.
Your statement disagrees not only with All of Scriptures and His own words, but also with Matthew 5:17.
Again..Yeshua is the GOAL of the Torah.

I point you to the explanation Jesus provides after His resurrection - 44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me. LK 24

 

[visionary]

Don't forget our beloved Saul/Paul
Btw, isn't there some division within the MJ sect concerning Paul?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7589021-8/#post58443303
[REPORT FREE THREAD] staff/member(MJ members) discussion "Discrediting Paul"

Is the faith of all the believers in scripture up for question? Like the question asked...

Is Abraham a believer?
Is Moses a believer?
Is Isaiah a believer?
Is Daniel a believer?
Is Yeshua a believer?
Is Nicodemus a believer?
Is Timothy a believer?
Is Paul a believer?

 

[tzadik]

Starting with the fact that you wrongly translated the verse I translated nothing in my post.You don't understand word goal. When a goal is achieved it is the end of something achieved. In the case of the law it is over just as Luke stated in 16:16 which I quoted to you.I point you to the explanation Jesus provides after His resurrection - 44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me. LK 24

Luke 16:16? What about Luke 16:17 which tells us clearly that the Torah of G-d is DEFINITELY not over. If the Torah of G-d is actually over, why did they continue keeping it? why did they continue to talk about it? Do you realize that MUCH of what was prophesied in "Law and the Prophets" have not yet been fulfilled? Yes the first coming of the Messiah was fulfilled, but that was not the ONLY thing "CONCERNING the Messiah" that was written in the Torah...or do you think that His first coming fulfilled EVERYTHING written in the law and the prophets? I hope not.
So you see the Torah of G-d can not be over and done with, for there are still many shadows of wonderful things to come that we are still waiting on.
So even in it's prophetic facet alone, the Torah is FAR from being over and done. (EVEN concerning the Messiah Himself!!)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Is the faith of all the believers in scripture up for question? Like the question asked...

Is Abraham a believer?
Is Moses a believer?
Is Isaiah a believer?
Is Daniel a believer?
Is Yeshua a believer?
Is Nicodemus a believer?
Is Timothy a believer?
Is Paul a believer?

Even the demons believe, just don't bow down to them

Young) James 2:19 thou--thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons/daimonia <1140> believe and they shudder!

Young) Revelation 9:20 and the rest of men, who were not killed in these plagues, neither did reform from the works of their hands, that they may not bow before the demons/daimonia <1140>, and idols, those of gold, and those of silver, and those of brass, and those of stone, and those of wood, that are neither able to see, nor to hear, nor to walk,

 

[visionary]

Even the demons believe, just don't bow down to them

Young) James 2:19 thou--thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons/daimonia <1140> believe and they shudder!

Young) Revelation 9:20 and the rest of men, who were not killed in these plagues, neither did reform from the works of their hands, that they may not bow before the demons/daimonia <1140>, and idols, those of gold, and those of silver, and those of brass, and those of stone, and those of wood, that are neither able to see, nor to hear, nor to walk,

There is one thing to believe and live in fear for sins committed. It is quite another to be a believer and live in Him.

 

[from scratch]

You're missing my point in all of what I wrote...my point is that if Scripture says PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS --that must mean..that there is more than one explanation or definition of righteousness...UNLESS the Word is instructing us to practice salvation--which in that case makes sense, because keeping of Torah is putting our faith in action. Work your salvation with fear and trembling. Faith without works of faith is dead.

What does Gal 5 say about the life style of the righteous Christian? It says there is no law. It clearly says the life style is not one of sin or wickeness. What does I Tim 1:8-10 say about life styles and who the law applies to? If you demand that the law applies to the Christian, who then is the righteous? If yo claim that the law applies to you what is your confession according to I Tim 1:9-10? How can one be both? I would think that having a lifestyle of but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; is against the law.

 

[tzadik]

What does Gal 5 say about the life style of the righteous Christian? It says there is no law. It clearly says the life style is not one of sin or wickeness. What does I Tim 1:8-10 say about life styles and who the law applies to? If you demand that the law applies to the Christian, who then is the righteous? If yo claim that the law applies to you what is your confession according to I Tim 1:9-10? How can one be both? I would think that having a lifestyle of but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; is against the law.

Since you didn't respond on it and are talking AGAIN about 1 Tim 1:8-10:

All your arguments stem from your interpretation of the word "nomos" to mean the Torah of G-d, without actually knowing (contextually) if it actually is talking about the Instructions of G-d, or the Law of G-d, or the 10 commandments, or the Psalms, or the entire "OT" or the law of sin, or the law of death, or the punishments in the Law of G-d. Just a couple of meanings behind the word "nomos" off the top of my head.
Of course if you want to substitute the word "law" here to mean "Torah of G-d", that is between you and G-d.
It doesn't agree with the rest of Scriptures, say for instance David (Psalm 1) talking about the Torah of G-d and saying "blessed is the man who does not walk by the wicked, or stand with the wicked or sit with the wicked." BUT....DELIGHTS in the Torah of G-d. (Righteous man delights in the Torah of G-d and meditates in His Torah day and night)
hmmm I thought the Torah of G-d is only for the wicked...
see how flawed "Torah of G-d is only for the wicked" argument is?

 

[from scratch]

You're missing my point in all of what I wrote...my point is that if Scripture says PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS --that must mean..that there is more than one explanation or definition of righteousness...UNLESS the Word is instructing us to practice salvation--which in that case makes sense, because keeping of Torah is putting our faith in action. Work your salvation with fear and trembling. Faith without works of faith is dead.

Are you not still demanding obedience to the defunct law?

 

[from scratch]

I don't know if I quite follow...
example.
David as a Torah-observant believer, physically kept the feasts of G-d.
Are you saying that a believer (Jewish or Gentile) in Yeshua, after His death, no longer has to physically keep the feasts of G-d?

Or Yeshua himself saying that "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" and "the Sabbath was made for man" (before His death). Are you saying that Jewish and Gentile believers after His death, no longer have to do good on the Sabbath or keep the Sabbath?

That would be correct. The covenants have changed.

You make reference to Mk 2:27 as all pro law people do and take it out of context. Jesus also said He is the sabbath to those who can understand Mat 11:28-30.

 

[tzadik]

That would be correct. The covenants have changed.

You make reference to Mk 2:27 as all pro law people do and take it out of context. Jesus also said He is the sabbath to those who can understand Mat 11:28-30.

Lol you mean Yeshua did away with His Father's Holy day with that statement (which already is the son doing something on his own against his father's command)...yet continued to keep the Sabbath Himself? (Matthew 12) Not to mention, all of the believers continued keeping Sabbath and meeting on the Sabbath to hear the word of G-d. It's quite amazing how easy Scriptures are at pointing truth. We must be however ready to drop our own thoughts our own traditions, our flawed human understanding and submit to His Word.

 

[from scratch]

We're taking this one step at a time Scratch. Step 1 -JEWS. So are you now admitting that a Jewish believer needs to continue to keep the Torah of G-d, like David continued, AFTER he was saved by grace through faith??

NO! The covenants have changed. There is no obligation for any to the defunct and superceded covenant. Can the Jews continue in their ethnic heritage? Yes! Is it a requirement? No! Galatian 3:28 shows this written by a hardline Pharisee Paul. The is also backed up by Acts 15.

I am very sorry if you think I'm yelling. I'm just trying to get you to read what I said in a way you can't miss it. You have missed what I have said or ignoring it.

 

[tzadik]

NO! The covenants have changed. There is no obligation for any to the defunct and superceded covenant. Can the Jews continue in their ethnic heritage? Yes! Is it a requirement? No! Galatian 3:28 shows this written by a hardline Pharisee Paul. The is also backed up by Acts 15.

Galatians and Acts 15 tell the JEWISH believer that the perpetual, forever, everlasting Instructions and signs between G-d and Israel are no longer applicable because Yeshua died?
As in...Yes G-d commanded that they'd be kept FOREVER, throughout all their generations (of believers), but it didn't actually mean forever but rather stopped when the Messiah died?

What about

"So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God."

Definitely written after Yeshua's death.

 

[from scratch]

what happened to grace for the believers then? If the Christian is wicked wouldn't they need more grace, just as the law abounds more, so should grace. 70 x 7.. I believe there is salvation for even a wicked repentant Christian...

Grace and the law aren't the same thing. I never said that grace is dismissed. Read Romans 11:32 for the express purpose of the law. This is different from the reason of the law - Rom 4:15. The reason for the law is to legally charge and punish allowing for the purpose of the law - grace to exist.