Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment for unbelievers?

[elopez]

Do you not believe that the lake of fire will consume the soul? How then is it considered death if the soul never dies?

In a metaphorical way. Death is usually never referred to as an end of existence indefinitely.

The Greek for "death" is thanatos and means to exist in separation of God's presence after biological life.

 

[Timothew]

Its the same word exchange is what I was pointing out in both, as I pointed out the same on another thread we were both on. And the quote of Paul comes from the OT (Hebrew) where the NT (Greek) comparison can be made even though the words are different.

But we can just call it "candyland" for now (just so words dont get in the way).

The dead are shown in both the sea (which delivered up) and the dead are shown in both death and in hades (lets call it candyland) which delivered up the dead "in them" as well.

But John (you) dont believe is speaking literally that the dead are in hades (you say confirm as Sheol literally so ) but he cannot be speaking literally, although you confirm its literally Sheol?

See what I mean?

What might you be proposing? You must correct me if I am wrong but it sounds as close to saying Jesus (Who iwe know is the truth) is basically speaking a bunch of nonsense myths. One of which contains the place of this torment we'll call "candyland" (in contrast to) the comfort of Lazarus in (lets say) "wonderland", but this is really just for the fun of it? They would then amount to nothing more then Christ blowing no more then hot air in the gospels in form of a parables just because He could. See what I mean? Both died, one comforted the other tormented but the parable should basically seen as BS? There is absolutely no point to the parable (or any of the parables) even though he expounded to his disciples these very parables in private?

Catch how I am trying to hear what you are saying but what I catching how you might be adressing it?

Not trying to be argumentive (at all) you should know by now Im pretty reasonable and I dont want you to understand my post as a desire to argue with you. I might ask someone something once or twice and if I dont get an understandable response I will pretty much leave off of the conversation and not contend, I just dont have a clear understanding of what you mean, and how that could be perceived perhaps.

God bless you

Jesus was using the stories of the time to make his own point. He wisely used the pharisees own common stories and gave them new meaning. I could tell a story using the character of Gramma Nut, but that doesn't mean that I really believe there is a literal Gumdrop Mountain.

(Someone else asked, how could this be a parable since it has a proper name. 1st, why not? 2nd, This was probably why Jesus named Lazarus in the parable, because the Pharisees wouldn't believe even after Jesus raised Lazarus of Bethany.)

 

[Timothew]

Well, I'd disagree.
One has to actually believe in the ressurection to be a christian.

The topic is a train wreck though.
"Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment for unbelievers?"

You can read through Revelations for that answer. Whether you believe or not, that's where faith comes in. To have a relationship with God and trust Him for every word.

Well, I do believe in the resurrection, and in eternal life in Christ. I also believe that there is ONLY eternal life in Christ and nowhere else. That means that there can't be eternal life in torment in hell.

I trust God for every word. I trust that you will understand if I don't believe everything you say. Perhaps you could do a little reading of your own, try Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death. Notice that Paul did not say "the wages of sin is to be roasted alive forever in hell." There are hundreds of similar passages in the bible stating that the lost perish or are destroyed.
I'm done with reading the bible from a medieval POV that includes a torture-pit hell. If you read the actual words of the bible without wanting to find hell there, you find that there is no hell of torment in the bible.

 

[Timothew]

Right, so according to this logic the word for "eternal" in relation to life also means to "cut off," since it is the same exact word used to describe both life and punishment. They are not two separate words. It is the same word eternal, just as you wouldn't say that the word "eternal" in relation to God in Romans 16:26 doesn't mean to cut off.

No, the greek word for "eternal" doesn't mean cutoff. (Are you even trying to understand?) The greek word for cut-off means to cut off. kolos. kolasin.

Being dead forever is not even a type of punishment, let alone a "temporary" one. Punishment can only be afflicted upon something that exists, and as the soul ceases to exist after death, one could not experience punishment as a result of simply being dead.

Until you understand that a punishment of death is actually punishment, and that it lasts forever so it is an eternal punishment, you will not understand or accept my point. So there is no use in talking to you or you talking to me until you understand this. Go away and think about it. When you understand that death is actually a punishment, then we can talk again.

 

[Montalban]

Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment in store for unbelievers?

According to Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.

According to 2 Thessalonians 1:9, The penalty to be paid is destruction, not eternal torment.

According to the book of revelation, the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal torment.

According to John 3:16, the fate of those who reject Christ is to perish, not suffer eternal torment.

According to Ezekiel, the soul who sins will die, not suffer eternal torment.

According to Jesus Christ, the road is wide that leads to destruction. He said destruction, not eternal torment.

According to God (recorded in Genesis) the result of sin is death and being returned to dust, not eternal torment.

According to the bible, there is no hell of eternal torment, there is only life in Christ or death without Christ.

When the OT was translated into Greek those scholars chose the Greek word Hades

Hades was chosen (as opposed to 'pit' or 'slumber' or some other word denoting rest/oblivion) because hades denotes an after-life in which the person in it experiences it.

Mark 9:48
47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[a]

49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

 

[Timothew]

When the OT was translated into Greek those scholars chose the Greek word Hades

Hades was chosen (as opposed to 'pit' or 'slumber' or some other word denoting rest/oblivion) because hades denotes an after-life in which the person in it experiences it.

Mark 9:48
47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[a]

49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

No doubt the greeks believed in a shadowy underworld where the dead live. They had a term for that, Hades. When the greeks saw the hebrew term Sheol, naturally they would translate it using their term, Hades.
As a Christian, I believe the ancient greeks were wrong about Hades. Christ said the day is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice, and they will come out of their graves to live. As a christian, I believe Christ over Homer.

I am confused about your Mark reference. This was about γέεννα, not Hades. It can't make your point about Hades, because Jesus said Gehenna is where the worms do not die. In case you are using Mark 9 to try to prove that the dead live forever in torment being eaten alive by immortal worms, you should know that Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66, where clearly the worms were eating corpses, not the living-dead conscious people.

 

[Tariki]

Maybe it could be time for Christians to accept that IF the Bible is the word of God, He never actually intended it to tell us the fate of the "unredeemed"?

Surely that is the only conclusion to this debate?

So perhaps time to start asking "why not"?

As an outsider looking in, ( ) I have always seen much wisdom in the thought mooted by someone that the door of hell is always locked from the inside. I would also add the thought, drawn from my own experience, that this would involve the paradox that though such be so, it can only be unlocked by Grace/God/Reality-as-is/from the outside. This because often I have been happy enough at a certain time, yet looking back, one would not like to go back and be THERE again. Which often makes me wonder exactly where I am now. At which point I normally retire back to the Pure Land......

Whether I am falling to hell
Or bound for the Pure Land,
I have no knowledge:
All is left to Amida's Vow.
"Namu-amida-butsu!"

Reflecting upon Christian notions of perfection, it seems strange that such is envisaged to consist of being happy in heaven when very many are at the same time being tormented in hell. This, the perfection of human beings
called upon to love others as themselves. (Which, at least for me, would involve sharing their suffering, and feeling it as our own. Simple empathy, though perhaps not so simple)

Well, I suppose those who are happy can console and justify themselves by claiming that the tormented had their fair share of "free will"; and we must not forget "justice" , must we?

From my own perspective, "salvation" will always have, and must always have, a communal dimension. The "inter-being" of all things demands it. The "salvation" of one demands the salvation of all......as we are all implicated in, and share in, each and every act.

Just the way I see it.

 

[elopez]

No, the greek word for "eternal" doesn't mean cutoff. (Are you even trying to understand?) The greek word for cut-off means to cut off. kolos. kolasin.

So what do you think the Greek for "eternal" is then and what does it mean?

Until you understand that a punishment of death is actually punishment, and that it lasts forever so it is an eternal punishment, you will not understand or accept my point. So there is no use in talking to you or you talking to me until you understand this. Go away and think about it. When you understand that death is actually a punishment, then we can talk again.

Until you understand that I get your point but completely disagree with it for the reasons I stated and to which you did not refute, there is actually no point in talking. Maybe you should think about that.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Jesus was usingthe stories of the time to make his own point.

Which was?

But it says this of him...

Psalm 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

He wisely used the pharisees own common stories and gave them new meaning.

Again, what do you feel the new meaning was? Because opening his mouth in a parable relates to the dark sayings of old.

I could tell a story using the character of Gramma Nut, but that doesn't mean that I really believe there is a literal Gumdrop Mountain.

But we agree that hades is sheol though, or Sheol literally so (as you yourself agree). I was calling it candyland (not gumdrop Mountain) so as to not get caught up in wresting over the words. But you have stated you believe Sheol is literally so which does not allow the exclusion of the reality of Sheol (or Gumdrop Mountain as you might refer to it) contrarywise, you affirm it. Which is also what I keep trying to point out.

(Someone else asked, how could this be a parable since it has a proper name. 1st, why not? 2nd, This was probably why Jesus named Lazarus in the parable, because the Pharisees wouldn't believe even after Jesus raised Lazarus of Bethany.)

Yes, someone else asked that question, I didnt ask that one.

 

[Montalban]

No doubt the greeks believed in a shadowy underworld where the dead live. They had a term for that, Hades. When the greeks saw the hebrew term Sheol, naturally they would translate it using their term, Hades.

No. That's false. The JEWS translated it into Greek and used the word Hades

As a Christian, I believe the ancient greeks were wrong about Hades. Christ said the day is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice, and they will come out of their graves to live. As a christian, I believe Christ over Homer.

Then you're saying that there's no consequences for sin, and that there's no such thing as free will.

Free will is about real choices. IF no matter what I do, I'm still saved, then there's no real choice. There would be no difference between me treating my mum with dignity and respect and looking after her to killing her and trying to get an inheritance... because in your idea of the after-world I'd be with Christ.

I am confused about your Mark reference. This was about γέεννα, not Hades. It can't make your point about Hades, because Jesus said Gehenna is where the worms do not die. In case you are using Mark 9 to try to prove that the dead live forever in torment being eaten alive by immortal worms, you should know that Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66, where clearly the worms were eating corpses, not the living-dead conscious people.

What to you are the never ending flames?

 

[Montalban]

Maybe it could be time for Christians to accept that IF the Bible is the word of God, He never actually intended it to tell us the fate of the "unredeemed"?

Why wouldn't God tell us of the consequences of our actions?

 

[Tariki]

Why wouldn't God tell us of the consequences of our actions?

I was merely observing that, given this thread and the arguments between Christians themselves, He has NOT done so clearly i.e. not in the detail some seem to assert.

And I would say that the consequences of our actions are in fact all around us. We accept responsibility or not.

Adding further "consequences" that would appear to serve no purpose (at least to me, and in regard to some consequences that some Christians argue for) does very little - if anything - to help.

 

[oi_antz]

I was merely observing that, given this thread and the arguments between Christians themselves, He has NOT done so clearly i.e. not in the detail some seem to assert.

And I would say that the consequences of our actions are in fact all around us. We accept responsibility or not.

Adding further "consequences" that would appear to serve no purpose (at least to me, and in regard to some consequences that some Christians argue for) does very little - if anything - to help.

It's hardly important anyway. Jesus was all about promoting the Kingdom in here and now.

 

[Montalban]

I was merely observing that, given this thread and the arguments between Christians themselves, He has NOT done so clearly i.e. not in the detail some seem to assert.

That's not logical.

If I attended a lecture where they explained in detail quantum mechanics my inability to understand it doesn't mean that the lecture was not clear and in detail.

And I would say that the consequences of our actions are in fact all around us. We accept responsibility or not.

I agree

Adding further "consequences" that would appear to serve no purpose (at least to me, and in regard to some consequences that some Christians argue for) does very little - if anything - to help.

What 'further consequences' are you talking about?

 

[Tariki]

That's not logical.

If I attended a lecture where they explained in detail quantum mechanics my inability to understand it doesn't mean that the lecture was not clear and in detail

Irrespective of "logic".........the FACT is that Christians here, on THIS forum, ARE disputing exactly what the consequences are.

OK, so YOU apparently think the Bible is clear and that your own understanding of it is the "right" one.

I suggest your argument is with your fellow Christians, not with me.

Edit: Sorry, thought you were responding to "auzer". The further consequences? What this thread is about of course, or are we at cross purposes?

 

[Tariki]

It's hardly important anyway. Jesus was all about promoting the Kingdom in here and now.

Antz, So the eternal fate of billions, whether annihilation, endless torment or - indeed - final felicity, is "hardly important"?

As I said before, there may well be a case made for WHY it has not been made clear. But to claim it is "hardly important" seems wide of the mark, at least to me.

 

[Montalban]

Irrespective of "logic".........the FACT is that Christians here, on THIS forum, ARE disputing exactly what the consequences are.

Absolutely. That's a truism. So what?

OK, so YOU apparently think the Bible is clear and that your own understanding of it is the "right" one.

I made no such claim. For one thing my 'version' of Christianity doesn't rely solely on the Bible. So I wouldn't go near to saying that.

I suggest your argument is with your fellow Christians, not with me.

Yet you're the one disputing

 

[Montalban]

Antz, So the eternal fate of billions, whether annihilation, endless torment or - indeed - final felicity, is "hardly important"?

This I agree with you Tariki

 

[spirit1st]

Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


You know Jesus Suffered before the foundation of the earth was made!
Foundation of the earth is the planets that hold us in place!
He saw it all!He hates sin!Yet allowed it all to take place to gain a family !

He suffered seeing all this evil that was going to take place!All the suffering on earth!
not counted when He came into the flesh.Living a lonely sad life! With no one to talk with who understood! Plus being tortured ,have his beard torn out !Taking 39 hits on His back! being spit on and slapped around!
Then being nailed to the Cross All for You and me! Thank YOU LORD JESUS!

HE LOVES US MORE! Than we love ourselves!

Heb_12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:


I have no fear of hell! I know He keeps me .I Do Not keep my self! Thank you LORD JESUS!

 

[Timothew]

No. That's false. The JEWS translated it into Greek and used the word Hades

That's true, Greek-Speaking Jews translated Sheol into Hades. They were influenced by Greece enough to be speaking greek. They would have been influenced by Greece literature as well. They knew of Hades, so they had to have heard the Greek Myths.

Then you're saying that there's no consequences for sin, and that there's no such thing as free will.

No sir, I'm not saying that there is no consequence for sin. I have always said that there is a very severe consequence for sin. The wages (or consequences) of sin is death. I quoted Romans 6:23 on the very first post in this thread.
Why do you think I'm saying that there is no such thing as free will? I can't see where you would get the idea that I think that.

Free will is about real choices. IF no matter what I do, I'm still saved, then there's no real choice. There would be no difference between me treating my mum with dignity and respect and looking after her to killing her and trying to get an inheritance... because in your idea of the after-world I'd be with Christ.

I don't think that a person is saved no matter what they do. I've said before that the wages of sin is death, not eternal life with Christ. If you reject Christ, you would not be with him in the resurrection.

What to you are the never ending flames?

Again, refer to Isaiah 66. These flames are burning corpses, not tormenting living people. Also, they are not "never ending flames", they are unquenchable flames. They will not be quenched, but they can still end when they have consumed all of the fuel.
Isaiah 66:24
Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.
Isaiah specifically says that the fire will slay many, He definitely does NOT say that the fire torments conscious living dead people.