Are you part of Mainstream Messianic Judaism?

[Shimshon]

The fact that the Temple was torn down (Mt 24:2) says absolutely nothing about Elohim or Messiah taking away Torah.

Torah defined temple worship. Yeshua said the temple would be destroyed and the people scattered (not in the same breath, nor place in the writings). Hebrews refers to the change in the Torah as it regards the priesthood. There is no need for the earthly high priest or even the rest of the cohanim because Yeshua is serving in the Heavenly temple and ministering in our hearts.

If you take away the temple and scatter the people, how can you 'observe' Torah as 'commanded' THRU Moshe?

So, I ask again, where does it clearly say that Elohim has left His house desolate?

I have given you the witness and testimony, I am sorry we do not agree on it.

That is not an answer. Again I ask, is it acceptable for me to go worship idols now, and blaspheme His Name? As a Gentile not living in His physical land, it is not a sin for me to do either, right?

You can relate to both these things in regards to Yeshua's commands. Meaning he instructed how to relate to God in regards to these things 'without' a temple or observing them as the laws given THRU Moshe defines.

I apologize for not being clearer. What I was actually saying was that the presence of Elohim is still in His Land. His Land is Heaven and our Hearts.

So you do understand how Torah can 'change' in regards to how we now relate to God? Because Torah deals specifically with a physical Land and a physical people who lived IN said Land. You just stated different.

Where does it say that he was Jewish?

Oh please. An argument out of silence? Who said he was gentile? And what other 'proof text' can you provide that Yeshua taught 'clearly' that a gentile was supposed to observe the commands given THRU Moshe to inherit eternal life?

 

[ananda]

I have given you the witness and testimony, I am sorry we do not agree on it.

As I quoted many times before, this is my final conclusion to the matter: My witness, the Apostle John, says "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous" (1Jn 5:3). There is no evidence that John wrote only to Jewish believers.

My relationship with Elohim and Messiah is not about grace vs. works. It is about family, love, and obedience.

Oh please. An argument out of silence? Who said [the rich young ruler] was gentile?

I never said he was Gentile. I asked for your proof that he was Jewish, since that was what you claimed to support your idea that he was following Torah because he was Jewish.

 

[Shimshon]

As I quoted many times before, this is my final conclusion to the matter: My witness, the Apostle John, says "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous" (1Jn 5:3). There is no evidence that John wrote only to Jewish believers.

Your right, as there is no evidence that the word 'commandments' here even imply the Torah given Yisrael through Moshe.

Not sure if you consider this book, but I do.

1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. 24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.

23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

I spoke about this in detail here: Teach and Observe all that I Command you...

ALL are commanded to receive forgiveness & Spirit through Faith in Yeshua.

18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Teach all nations in the world as I have taught you.

Yeshua himself instructed the gentiles through the apostles to observe all that he had commanded.

1 In the first book, O 1Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began 2to do and teach, 2 until the day when 3he was taken up, after he 4had given commands 5through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

Yeshua gave commands through the Spirit to the to the apostles.

Here is what Peter stated Yeshua commanded him.

42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

He commanded the apostles to preach and testify that Yeshua is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead, he is God in the flesh.

My relationship with Elohim and Messiah is not about grace vs. works. It is about family, love, and obedience.

Same here, I do not have an either/or paradigm (vs.). Our works are his, as he lives and dwells in us. He, in this very place. His grace is worked out through our lives, as we forgive others, he forgives us. A work ONLY God can do. And we all have a lot of work to be accomplished in us!

 

[ContraMundum]

I have to agree with Shimshon. The word "commandments" are obviously not defined as the Mosaic law, due to the lack of a Temple, lack of Apostolic witness about keeping the laws of Moses and the fact that Jesus taught that all the law hangs on the moral commandments.

 

[visionary]

Torah defined temple worship. Yeshua said the temple would be destroyed and the people scattered (not in the same breath, nor place in the writings). Hebrews refers to the change in the Torah as it regards the priesthood. There is no need for the earthly high priest or even the rest of the cohanim because Yeshua is serving in the Heavenly temple and ministering in our hearts.

If you take away the temple and scatter the people, how can you 'observe' Torah as 'commanded' THRU Moshe?

I have given you the witness and testimony, I am sorry we do not agree on it.

You can relate to both these things in regards to Yeshua's commands. Meaning he instructed how to relate to God in regards to these things 'without' a temple or observing them as the laws given THRU Moshe defines.

So you do understand how Torah can 'change' in regards to how we now relate to God? Because Torah deals specifically with a physical Land and a physical people who lived IN said Land. You just stated different.

Oh please. An argument out of silence? Who said he was gentile? And what other 'proof text' can you provide that Yeshua taught 'clearly' that a gentile was supposed to observe the commands given THRU Moshe to inherit eternal life?

What part of Judaism do you observe as a Messianic Judaism member?

 

[ContraMundum]

What part of Judaism do you observe as a Messianic Judaism member?

I can't speak for Shimshon, but I know from experience that many Messianic Jews who do not attend Messianic styled congregations do not change their Jewish private life much in many respects. What they observed before faith in Christ that may or may not change. I know of one guy who got more interested in his Jewish heritage after he got saved, but he still doesn't rail on about "Torah" like the One Law gentiles do. He attends Jewish events, and I have taught him to lay tefillin.

I meet a few times a year with a group of Jewish Christian clergymen. We have a blast and it is a lot of laughs. But we all have different approaches to living out our Jewish heritage. I am one of the more traditional Jews so yiddishkeit it is a bit more obvious in my life than some of the others, but we all have something it seems that we treasure in our lives.

The one thing that has come out of our discussions is that we are unanimous that One Law theology is obviously goyish and not Jewish in any way shape or form. We are also pretty unanimous that to "observe" any ritual or rite or ceremony as a law that one must keep in order to be saved or sanctified is a works theology. Therefore we are all pretty much in agreement that observing rituals, rites, ceremonies and so forth are done out of free will and love and does not dispense extra grace to us. For the record, we come from a whole array of churches, and two of us are leaders in Messianic congregations.

Do you not find it interesting that a) Jewish believers generally reject One Law theology, b) Messianic leaders get along just fine with Church leaders and c) there are a few Jews in leadership in the Church, each maintaining his own personal degree of Judaism and not condemning or judging the others path and d) we all regard each other as Messianic Jews?

This is why when I come to this forum, I wonder what planet this is. It certainly doesn't look like the earth I abide in.

 

[visionary]

I can't speak for Shimshon, but I know from experience that many Messianic Jews who do not attend Messianic styled congregations do not change their Jewish private life much in many respects. What they observed before faith in Christ that may or may not change. I know of one guy who got more interested in his Jewish heritage after he got saved, but he still doesn't rail on about "Torah" like the One Law gentiles do. He attends Jewish events, and I have taught him to lay tefillin.

I meet a few times a year with a group of Jewish Christian clergymen. We have a blast and it is a lot of laughs. But we all have different approaches to living out our Jewish heritage. I am one of the more traditional Jews so yiddishkeit it is a bit more obvious in my life than some of the others, but we all have something it seems that we treasure in our lives.

The one thing that has come out of our discussions is that we are unanimous that One Law theology is obviously goyish and not Jewish in any way shape or form. We are also pretty unanimous that to "observe" any ritual or rite or ceremony as a law that one must keep in order to be saved or sanctified is a works theology. Therefore we are all pretty much in agreement that observing rituals, rites, ceremonies and so forth are done out of free will and love and does not dispense extra grace to us. For the record, we come from a whole array of churches, and two of us are leaders in Messianic congregations.

Do you not find it interesting that a) Jewish believers generally reject One Law theology, b) Messianic leaders get along just fine with Church leaders and c) there are a few Jews in leadership in the Church, each maintaining his own personal degree of Judaism and not condemning or judging the others path and d) we all regard each other as Messianic Jews?

This is why when I come to this forum, I wonder what planet this is. It certainly doesn't look like the earth I abide in.

Never asked about Jewish heritages or traditions, I asked about Judaism as the biblical obedience that God requires.

 

[ContraMundum]

Interesting you noted as you did, as Brother Ravi Zacharias noted similar dynamics in a book he did entitled "Walking from East to West: God in the Shadows"...as he discussed how the mindset of those in the East is very collective whereas the Western mindset is indeed more individualistic---and in the Eastern context where scriptures were written, one would naturally have not seen the individuals as seperate from the legacy of those who went before them. Ravi Zacharias, who is originally from India, says that we in the West sometimes miss the Eastern undercurrent of the biblical narratives. For instance, he writes, “Most people I have met who have grown up in a Western culture don’t seem to be nearly as aware of their ancestry as those from the East.” This connection to ancestry “is a tendency that has both a good and bad side, for in the East history and ancestry never die.” Family ties are of utmost importance for many cultures. And in many ways, as we in the West lack familiarity with things such as sovereignty, monarchy, and lordship.... so also we’ve long lost the idea of familial hierarchy. Yet each of these things come in to play when we talk of Jesus being the Son of God and the Mission He had. IMHO, this is why it is important to view the title “Son of God” in its Eastern, Jewish, biblical context....for as Matthew 1 and Luke 3:23-37 discuss, the subject of understanding one's past/ancestry was key in understanding the very nature of what the Messiah was going to be. There's a reason the scriptures place so much high importance on geneologies when it comes to showing who a person is fully.


The passage of Hebrews 11-12 comes immediately mind, especially when the author encourages the people to not give up on their faith in light of the fact that they were "surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses."...numerous others who went before them who had to experience the same. It wasn't to singular individuals alone that the author of Hebrews was talking to---and the people wouldn't have understood what it meant to be a believer apart from seeing the extensive ways in which people walked out their faiths...many of them seperated by centuries of time, unaware of others coming after them....

Good work Easy! I've read a number of similar sentiments from western authors too in recent times. One was from Baptist (Messianic Jew) missionary Martin Goldsmith in his book "Matthew and Mission- the Gospel through Jewish eyes" where he states that people in the east really "get" the importance of genealogies and community in the Gospels and the Church.

 

[ContraMundum]

Never asked about Jewish heritages or traditions, I asked about Judaism as the biblical obedience that God requires.

You don't define what you mean by that. Judaism is a tradition. Judaism teaches that the Law is given both in writing and in oral tradition, and that the authority to define that tradition lies with the Rabbis.

This is why you make little sense to the Jews here. You talk about "obedience" as if one is saved by it, and yet you deny that one is saved by it, and do not tell us precisely what you think people are to obey when it comes to your understanding of Torah (which is not a Jewish understanding as far as I can tell).

According to you, what must one obey and observe to be saved?

 

[yedida]

We are also pretty unanimous that to "observe" any ritual or rite or ceremony as a law that one must keep in order to be saved or sanctified is a works theology. Therefore we are all pretty much in agreement that observing rituals, rites, ceremonies and so forth are done out of free will and love and does not dispense extra grace to us.

Ain't it funny, we think so too.
I challenge you to name one "regular" gentile member here who thinks that to be saved, or to earn merit we must observe these rites or rituals.
Why do you guys keep trying to say that is what we are doing?
We have always stated that it is the grace God gives us that allows us to see Him in these celebrations, and we too, celebrate and observe because He saved us, to show our gratitude for His kindness and mercy toward us.

 

[ContraMundum]

Ain't it funny, we think so too.

Some of you. Others talk about "observance" and "obedience" to Feasts and other rites, rituals and ceremonies.

I challenge you to name one "regular" gentile member here who thinks that to be saved, or to earn merit we must observe these rites or rituals.

Some people here are unaware about what they really teach. I think there are most definitely works-salvation and works-righteousness teachers on this forum. If I turned the heat up on the matter, it would be revealed, but it would change nothing.

Why do you guys keep trying to say that is what we are doing?
We have always stated that it is the grace God gives us that allows us to see Him in these celebrations, and we too, celebrate and observe because He saved us, to show our gratitude for His kindness and mercy toward us.

No nonononono....you have recently stated that one is saved by grace etc.....but others here just say the phrase but in reality teach the opposite.

Think about it- do you really think one is saved by grace, justified by faith, and sanctified by the Spirit apart from the Law?

 

[yedida]

Some of you. Others talk about "observance" and "obedience" to Feasts and other rites, rituals and ceremonies.



Some people here are unaware about what they really teach. I think there are most definitely works-salvation and works-righteousness teachers on this forum. If I turned the heat up on the matter, it would be revealed, but it would change nothing.



No nonononono....you have recently stated that one is saved by grace etc.....but others here just say the phrase but in reality teach the opposite.

Think about it- do you really think one is saved by grace, justified by faith, and sanctified by the Spirit apart from the Law?

Yes. Yeshua said so Himself.

 

[ContraMundum]

Yes. Yeshua said so Himself.

So, you really believe that one is saved by grace through faith, and sanctified by grace through the Spirit- without the works of the Law?

What then is basis for all the talk against the Christians being "lawless" which you so often bring up?

 

[rsduncan]

Some of you. Others talk about "observance" and "obedience" to Feasts and other rites, rituals and ceremonies.



Some people here are unaware about what they really teach. I think there are most definitely works-salvation and works-righteousness teachers on this forum. If I turned the heat up on the matter, it would be revealed, but it would change nothing.



No nonononono....you have recently stated that one is saved by grace etc.....but others here just say the phrase but in reality teach the opposite.

Think about it- do you really think one is saved by grace, justified by faith, and sanctified by the Spirit apart from the Law?

yedida's been saying that we are saved by grace ever since I got here, CM...

 

[ContraMundum]

yedida's been saying that we are saved by grace ever since I got here, CM...

I think we need some clarification as to what yedida means by that before I can comment. I have heard many things that I would interpret to mean a denial of salvation by grace from many posters here who claim to believe it.

But, you are correct I think on reflection. I do think yedida is pretty on the level.

 

[yedida]

So, you really believe that one is saved by grace through faith, and sanctified by grace through the Spirit- without the works of the Law?

What then is basis for all the talk against the Christians being "lawless" which you so often bring up?

Yes, I quote Mat 5:17-19 to state that the law is not abolished, but the rest of the verses say that if one does and teaches the law they will be called great in the kingdom of heaven, those who do not obey and teach others not to obey will be called least in the kingdom of heaven - but either way, those who obey and those who do not will be in the kingdom of heaven if they are saved by the grace of our God.
It is the grace that has saved that gives the ability to even consider obeying. It's not something that can be done just with the flesh or mind - there is an anointing (for lack of a better word) that flows to obedience.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Good work Easy! I've read a number of similar sentiments from western authors too in recent times. One was from Baptist (Messianic Jew) missionary Martin Goldsmith in his book "Matthew and Mission- the Gospel through Jewish eyes" where he states that people in the east really "get" the importance of genealogies and community in the Gospels and the Church.

Couldn't help but mentioned how many seem to often get shocked at the very concept of a Messianic Jew in a Baptist Church (LOL )--similar to how it was for the leader of my fellowship whenever others hear of our congregation meeting within a Baptist church/having good connections with them. But that's what can happen when it seems the definition of what it means to be "Messianic Jewish" is made to be so narrow to really fit into what's reality for most Messianic Jews.


All that aside, I've never heard of Martin Goldsmith before. Would love to check him out further----but till then, I definately respect what it is that he noted about genealogies and community in the Gospels and the Church.

 

[Shimshon]

It is the grace that has saved that gives the ability to even consider obeying. It's not something that can be done just with the flesh or mind - there is an anointing (for lack of a better word) that flows to obedience.

I will agree that most of the one law adherents here do not say they are saved 'by' following the law. They say as Yedida has pointed out here, that they are saved 'to' follow the law. That the grace of our God has given the gentiles the Spirit in order to observe and obey the commands given through Moshe to Yisrael.

 

[yedida]

I will agree that most of the one law adherents here do not say they are saved 'by' following the law. They say as Yedida has pointed out here, that they are saved 'to' follow the law. That the grace of our God has given the gentiles the Spirit in order to observe and obey the commands given through Moshe to Yisrael.

No, Shimshon, we are not saved "to" follow the law. We are saved because He loves us and wants good for us. In that saving grace, there is a grace,, an anointing to want to be pleasing and obedient - to do as He would have us to do.
I believe that the law was given to a redeemed people as God's standard of holy living and I don't believe it has ever changed. Now, I'm a redeemed people too, and it is still God's standard of a holy, set-apart people. We realize there are alot of things in the law that we cannot obey, shouldn't even if we could, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do the best that we can. And where we fail, God's grace will help us keep on keeping on.

 

[SGM4HIM]

Yedida,
Here's the problem;

Some others have said or implied different messages.

The implication is "T.O." is the right way, some say the only way, some the preferred way. Some say it with a superior, enlightened tone. Some overtly condescending.

Any Jewish believer who claims not to be "TO" is deceived and dishonored. Scholarly non TO Jews are discounted in their statements. Never mind they have studied for years biblical languages and other literature from that era.

If you claim not to be TO, then you are for lawlessness, "free Grace" and somehow not on the right, genuine, path.

Some 21st century MJ's 2nd guess events described in the NT. Somehow they truly know what first century believers were going through, what they thought about- and anything that does not line up with their belief system was a Pagan added verse, Hellenist, Constantine, Roman etc.

Different weights and measures are applied to OT and NT scriptures.

When inconsistencies in TO beliefs and practices by MJ and or traditional Judaism today are brought, the MJ religious card is played. Only those commands that apply to us and we now apply it through the lens of Yeshua, covers it. Not all are priests, some apply to women/ men, in the land/outside the land. God never changes. Case closed.

Yes we are all saved by grace, no question about that. Always has been.

The implication is non TO practices and worship are displeasing to God and it's going to "catch up with you" especially if you know better.

Note, these same attitudes in General Theology are also expressed in polar opposite theologies. It bothers me very much also.

This is not a general rant on MJ and does not apply to all posters here. These same concerns have been voiced by card carrying MJ's on different internet sites.

I do not have it all neatly figured out either, there's plenty more to learn and meditate upon....
Getting late...