Are you part of Mainstream Messianic Judaism?

[Shimshon]

What part of Judaism do you observe as a Messianic Judaism member?

You want my papers vis? I can pdf them. How about reading my bio? Birth of a Messianic Jew. I don't hide anything.

I was born a Jew, not according to Orthodox standards. I was raised Reformed, and like my Conservative Jewish father spiritually wandered till I found Yeshua. Even then I did not consider myself Christian and never even considered 'Church'. Then, I married a Christian. LOL And tried to embrace some form of denominational Church with her. We left shortly after and been Messianic ever since.

When I found Messianic Judaism I thought, how cool! A place where I'm going to find Jews like me, who came to faith in Yeshua the Messiah, Jesus the Christ. I ran in the doors, and amazingly realized that I was a minority in my own movement. In my own congregation, I was outnumbered by Gentiles who said they were saved by grace to follow the laws of God as given through Moshe to Yisrael.

I thought, this could not be! Where are all the Jews who came to faith in Messiah! (spoken in good yiddish fashion) I rarely run across them.

And please don't get me wrong and use the 'second class citizen' card. Gentiles are on equal footing with Jews when it comes to the grace and salvation given through Yeshua the Messiah. And I am not saying Gentiles are not called to worship with or among us. But they have NEVER been called to be 'under' the law to have been freed from it's observances. We observe because it's our identification. You should glorify our identification because it will glorify God in Heaven. As this is both our command to observe. Glorifying the King of Heaven. This is not done through works of the law, anymore than they could bring salvation. It is done through works of the Spirit through your very being. This is 'salvation'. This is the way he redeems his people. A work of God, a miracle right in front of our eyes.

Your all focusing on 3000 yrs ago when God is living and breathing from with in you! If you believe.

 

[yedida]

Yedida,
Here's the problem;

Some others have said or implied different messages.

The implication is "T.O." is the right way, some say the only way, some the preferred way. Some say it with a superior, enlightened tone. Some overtly condescending.

Any Jewish believer who claims not to be "TO" is deceived and dishonored. Scholarly non TO Jews are discounted in their statements. Never mind they have studied for years biblical languages and other literature from that era.

If you claim not to be TO, then you are for lawlessness, "free Grace" and somehow not on the right, genuine, path.

Some 21st century MJ's 2nd guess events described in the NT. Somehow they truly know what first century believers were going through, what they thought about- and anything that does not line up with their belief system was a Pagan added verse, Hellenist, Constantine, Roman etc.

Different weights and measures are applied to OT and NT scriptures.

When inconsistencies in TO beliefs and practices by MJ and or traditional Judaism today are brought, the MJ religious card is played. Only those commands that apply to us and we now apply it through the lens of Yeshua, covers it. Not all are priests, some apply to women/ men, in the land/outside the land. God never changes. Case closed.

Yes we are all saved by grace, no question about that. Always has been.

The implication is non TO practices and worship are displeasing to God and it's going to "catch up with you" especially if you know better.

Note, these same attitudes in General Theology are also expressed in polar opposite theologies. It bothers me very much also.

This is not a general rant on MJ and does not apply to all posters here. These same concerns have been voiced by card carrying MJ's on different internet sites.

I do not have it all neatly figured out either, there's plenty more to learn and meditate upon....
Getting late...

It just gets to be so much, so hard, when I believe that it was the Spirit who led me where I'm at now. I didn't know enough about anything when 7 years ago the scriptures began opening up to me. I had no idea what I was doing except I believed the Spirit was leading me and I didn't even know it had a name for over a year.
It just shouldn't be this hard. It really saddens me.

 

[xDenax]

It just gets to be so much, so hard, when I believe that it was the Spirit who led me where I'm at now.

What's hard?

 

[Shimshon]

It just gets to be so much, so hard, when I believe that it was the Spirit who led me where I'm at now. I didn't know enough about anything when 7 years ago the scriptures began opening up to me. I had no idea what I was doing except I believed the Spirit was leading me and I didn't even know it had a name for over a year.
It just shouldn't be this hard. It really saddens me.

But how do you know the Spirit didn't lead you here, and now it's time to follow him farther? God meets us where we are at, and leads us through. He remains with us. I think you have climbed a mountain only to find out that now, because of the mountian you have climbed you can see even higher mountains! And eventually, God is leading you to the highest mountain of them all. Do you really think you will ascend it this side of heaven? This side of death?

Shalom to you

 

[pat34lee]

I am not saying Gentiles are not called to worship with or among us. But they have NEVER been called to be 'under' the law to have been freed from it's observances. We observe because it's our identification.

I disagree with you here. He did not say to Israel, "This law makes you Jews." He gave them the law and basically said "If you want to be my people, these are the rules." The same still applies today for anyone who wants to follow him.

 

[MessianicMommy]

You don't define what you mean by that. Judaism is a tradition. Judaism teaches that the Law is given both in writing and in oral tradition, and that the authority to define that tradition lies with the Rabbis.

Not picking on you CM, but I wanted to use your quote as a jumping off point. There are some Messianics that do not find too much controversy in that concept you raised - of the Oral Tradition hand in hand with Torah. SOME, not many, do allow for that - and SOME, not many - allow for the idea of that, while investigating those claims and seeing if it can be put to practice with Messianic theology.

Others however, find it antithetical and look at anything/everything rabbinic as suspect. Some others go further and look at anything outside of Church-related theology as "heretical" and you get the left foot of fellowship if they suspect you are doing anything "Jewish" besides keeping Shabbat and maybe the holidays. (Which is my experience with Chosen People and some J4J groups )

I have found very few posters here that say obedience to Torah is salvific. Beneficial, yes. For everyone, some.

I believe some of the division, confusion and upset is the vast difference between what is perceived as the Messianic movement in North America vs elsewhere, and how we came to be as a whole in the Americas being the bulk of the disagreement. Not "One Law", "Divine Invitation", "Two House" or any of the other smaller doctrinal differences... or even the different "umbrellas" of MJ.

Yesterday, while watching a history-related documentary about the Prohibition some of this discussion came to mind. Some of the very issues we're wrestling back and forth with, are the core issues that only are seen/handled in US congregations and the vastly different flavor we have from the rest of the world due to not only our world view, but the fact of where many of the congregations were began. Between the various Methodist, Baptist, Assemblies of G-d, Presbyterian and Catholic congregations that later encorporated Messianic services, or umbrella congregations, we have ethics, doctrines and dogma tagging along for the ride. This could be the difference between one's understanding of or allowance for liturgy, wine, more Jewish practice, mode of baptism and views on salvation/obedience/works. This would also mean a different understanding of involvement in the public/government sector as far as legislating morality.

Then you have also those "we're on our own" home group types that have a mishmash of everything up above...

Here in Europe and elsewhere, you find that the movement seems to be a little more solidified... not as many doctrinal differences, though different modes of worship, levels of kashrut, and percentage of Jew and Gentile worshiping together.

I have no problems meeting with someone from the MJAA, UCMJ or MIA or any other group. I find that at the core, we truly believe many of the same things. It's in practice, and some other doctrinal issues where we have some of the split hairs. Personally, I believe in two house, but not like the MIA teaches. I gain benefit from some of their teachers, but not all. I find benefit from both major camps of the MJ movement, but not in some avenues. I find major issue with the whole of the "Karaite" Messianic groups, and that I can't seem to get along with any of them because the issue of rabbinic authority always comes up, and they're right, we're wrong. I just get tired of it and move on.

Having been purchasing Messianic books as of late, I am finding a lot of the theology and doctrine being pushed is more like what I heard growing up, than what I had been hearing from either Messianic camp as of late, whether online, or in audio/video format & in person. As far as "outreach" goes - there's been little difference (at least in literature) in the MJ area from J4J or Chosen People. There's a lot of holes in the "plan" or "line" one throws out there, and the main goal is outreach to those in Reform or Conservative faith than Orthodox. While some of the info is helpful, I find other parts of it harmful. I do believe there are strides being made though, towards better outreach and honesty on both sides.

What I do hope for is that the slandering and bickering stop and everyone work towards getting along better and hammering out the issues without flouncing off like three and a half year olds, crying in their soup over whatever fight just happened. Perhaps something akin to what strides have been made in the Ecumenical movement here in Europe. There may be major theological differences, but the youth and adults can get together on good footing with the common things that everyone believes and get along well.

We have 30-40 years of solid MJ movement. By now I would have thought people'd figured out how to get along. I guess there'll always be those who just act like they're in kindergarten their entire lives though. Someone stole my crayons!! - She looked at me funny! - That boy there hit me! - My cars aren't where I left them!

We're all adults here, problem solve. No more finger pointing. Every time one's pointing out, three more are pointing back at us! With all the bickering in here as of late, it looks like we need mediation and everyone sent to their own corner to calm down before they're allowed to play again.

Couldn't help but mentioned how many seem to often get shocked at the very concept of a Messianic Jew in a Baptist Church (LOL )--similar to how it was for the leader of my fellowship whenever others hear of our congregation meeting within a Baptist church/having good connections with them. But that's what can happen when it seems the definition of what it means to be "Messianic Jewish" is made to be so narrow to really fit into what's reality for most Messianic Jews.

I find we do well, as long as they know it's us doing it and we're doing outreach to Jews - but when we're in the congregation and other people get interested in what we do, suddenly the H word gets tossed around and you get the left foot of fellowship. It becomes the next inquisition, minus torture. Instead you get shunning and badmouthing around town.

Without arguing with anyone/everyone - I find that there are many commonalities here, but that there are some who push and prod to create issue with those commonalities and just shout out how different we all are.
We don't need that here. I could easily see us being put in Unorthodox Theology for all the crap I've been seeing since I rejoined.

 

[yonah_mishael]

So, you really believe that one is saved by grace through faith, and sanctified by grace through the Spirit- without the works of the Law?

What then is basis for all the talk against the Christians being "lawless" which you so often bring up?

Remember that those who advocate for this type of position have reinterpreted "works of the Law" to mean "extra traditions implemented by the rabbis." We've got Stern to thank for that. You should rephrase and say something like "without doing anything written in the Torah." That would be clear.

 

[yonah_mishael]

When I found Messianic Judaism I thought, how cool! A place where I'm going to find Jews like me, who came to faith in Yeshua the Messiah, Jesus the Christ. I ran in the doors, and amazingly realized that I was a minority in my own movement. In my own congregation, I was outnumbered by Gentiles who said they were saved by grace to follow the laws of God as given through Moshe to Yisrael.

I thought, this could not be! Where are all the Jews who came to faith in Messiah! (spoken in good yiddish fashion) I rarely run across them.

I have to admit that that would be disappointing. Has this continued to be your experience?

 

[ContraMundum]

Yes, I quote Mat 5:17-19 to state that the law is not abolished, but the rest of the verses say that if one does and teaches the law they will be called great in the kingdom of heaven, those who do not obey and teach others not to obey will be called least in the kingdom of heaven - but either way, those who obey and those who do not will be in the kingdom of heaven if they are saved by the grace of our God.
It is the grace that has saved that gives the ability to even consider obeying. It's not something that can be done just with the flesh or mind - there is an anointing (for lack of a better word) that flows to obedience.

So, you don't actually believe in salvation by grace through faith apart from the works of the Law.

Rather, if I get what you stand for, you interpret Jesus as advocating a continuation of the whole Mosiac Law (or, should I say the 613 laws of the Torah) for Jew and Gentile alike- making Him neither a good rabbinic teacher or much of a Messiah. If "business as usual" was all it was meant to be Jesus serves no purpose at all. He's just another rabbi with His own spin on the Torah. He has no authority, but is rather under authority. He has no need of being Divine- because He changes and effects nothing.

Thank God He makes clear elsewhere that obedience to the Law is not salvation!

I really hate to say it, but it's this kind of isolation of texts that make people lose their faith in the Cross and place their faith on their own obedience to the Laws.

 

[ContraMundum]

Remember that those who advocate for this type of position have reinterpreted "works of the Law" to mean "extra traditions implemented by the rabbis." We've got Stern to thank for that. You should rephrase and say something like "without doing anything written in the Torah." That would be clear.

Yeah, it's getting weird out there.

 

[ContraMundum]

Couldn't help but mentioned how many seem to often get shocked at the very concept of a Messianic Jew in a Baptist Church (LOL )--similar to how it was for the leader of my fellowship whenever others hear of our congregation meeting within a Baptist church/having good connections with them. But that's what can happen when it seems the definition of what it means to be "Messianic Jewish" is made to be so narrow to really fit into what's reality for most Messianic Jews.


All that aside, I've never heard of Martin Goldsmith before. Would love to check him out further----but till then, I definately respect what it is that he noted about genealogies and community in the Gospels and the Church.

To be honest I'm not sure you would get much about of Goldsmith. He writes with an audience in mind who do not yet appreciate the Jewish paradigm he brings to the table- a paradigm I think you are already aware of.

 

[yedida]

So, you don't actually believe in salvation by grace through faith apart from the works of the Law.

Rather, if I get what you stand for, you interpret Jesus as advocating a continuation of the whole Mosiac Law (or, should I say the 613 laws of the Torah) for Jew and Gentile alike- making Him neither a good rabbinic teacher or much of a Messiah. If "business as usual" was all it was meant to be Jesus serves no purpose at all. He's just another rabbi with His own spin on the Torah. He has no authority, but is rather under authority. He has no need of being Divine- because He changes and effects nothing.

Thank God He makes clear elsewhere that obedience to the Law is not salvation!

I really hate to say it, but it's this kind of isolation of texts that make people lose their faith in the Cross and place their faith on their own obedience to the Laws.

That's not what I said. But you go on ahead and misinterpret me. I'll not defend myself further since we seem to have a communications breakdown.

 

[Shimshon]

That's not what I said. But you go on ahead and misinterpret me. I'll not defend myself further since we seem to have a communications breakdown.

I don't see him making misrepresentations. If there is a communication breakdown it is because of your stated position. You state two opposing things at once.

Here you start by saying no, you don't believe you are saved 'to' follow the law. But then immediately start to explain how you are saved by his grace and the Spirit is anointing you to be pleasing and obedient. Of which you define as the law. You state you are now redeemed and anointed to observe God's holy standard of living, the law.

No, Shimshon, we are not saved "to" follow the law. We are saved because He loves us and wants good for us. In that saving grace, there is a grace,, an anointing to want to be pleasing and obedient - to do as He would have us to do.

I believe that the law was given to a redeemed people as God's standard of holy living and I don't believe it has ever changed. Now, I'm a redeemed people too, and it is still God's standard of a holy, set-apart people. We realize there are alot of things in the law that we cannot obey, shouldn't even if we could, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do the best that we can. And where we fail, God's grace will help us keep on keeping on.

It's as if my wife said, no I love you, let me prove it to you, and proceeds to do exactly the opposite of love. You bet I have a communication breakdown with statements such as this.

Your NOT saved 'to' follow the law. But your redeemed and anointed by the Spirit to obey the law the best you can. ???

 

[Shimshon]

I disagree with you here. He did not say to Israel, "This law makes you Jews." He gave them the law and basically said "If you want to be my people, these are the rules." The same still applies today for anyone who wants to follow him.

Basically the Torah was given to Yisrael to separate her apart from the other nations. What caused this separation, what made her so different from all the other nations around her? The relationship they had with God. God gave those instructions to Yisrael after our bondage in Egypt at Mt Sinai. They were instructions for living in the promised Land. They were given to identify Yisrael from the nations.

This is why the one law theology is so damning to so many things. The Gospel, and the very instructions of God. God gave Yisrael instructions on how to be God's chosen people in this world.

God has in this age spoken through Yeshua the Messiah, and has again instructed our people, like Moshe did from Egypt. Only Messiah did it from Mt. Tziyon, where Torah flowed out to the nations as a river of life.

Messiah has instructed us on how to live in the World, and how we will be identified as God's chosen people. And guess what, now you gentiles are included in the identification.....THE SPIRIT OF GOD LIVING IN AND THROUGH YOU!! This is how we know the children of God, by the Spirit given us. Those who love God above all things including their life and love others as themselves are living in the Spirit of God and are his children.

We no longer say 'Adonai who brought us out of the land of Egypt to be his people', but 'Adonai Yeshua who brought us out of all the nations of the world to be his chosen faithful. We no longer keep our eyes fixed on the ark of the covenant as it is paraded around in glory. We fix our eyes on our Hope and Glory, Yeshua the Messiah as he is raised up as a banner to the nations. --kapish?

 

[visionary]

I don't see him making misrepresentations. If there is a communication breakdown it is because of your stated position. You state two opposing things at once.

Here you start by saying no, you don't believe you are saved 'to' follow the law. But then immediately start to explain how you are saved by his grace and the Spirit is anointing you to be pleasing and obedient. Of which you define as the law. You state you are now redeemed and anointed to observe God's holy standard of living, the law.

It's as if my wife said, no I love you, let me prove it to you, and proceeds to do exactly the opposite of love. You bet I have a communication breakdown with statements such as this.

Your NOT saved 'to' follow the law. But your redeemed and anointed by the Spirit to obey the law the best you can. ???

Let us be clear here... When a person jumps in and saves you from drowning it has nothing to do with the law of the land, but has to do with compassion, mercy and grace which includes the forgiveness of making the mistake of getting yourself in such a position in the first place. The Law of the Land stands and is the way of good citizens in the land.

 

[Shimshon]

I have to admit that that would be disappointing. Has this continued to be your experience?

Sadly yes. I really miss my small congregation back in the NW. I recently moved to the SW, and am desperately trying to get back home.... This small congregation was more a family fellowship. But we were mostly Jewish, with only about 5% being gentile. One of the gentile families became our best friends. My wife and her are inseparable even over 1500mi away. Thank God for facebook. lol

We observed together, worshiped together and learned together. Each being equal in the group. We rented a Church to gather in, as our orthodox community would never agree to a Messianic group of Jewish families worshiping in their sanctuary. We were small but we were family.

We actually had split from another congregation. That congregation was more typical of the Messianic 'Jewish' congregation in that they observed not only Torah observance but mixed in oral Torah as well, as Messianic Mom does. I think she would love that congregation.

Needless to say; the group of us, one being the Rabbi's own son-in-law, a sabra from Yisrael, started to gather outside of his fathers congregation. And formed our own. We did not agree with the oral Torah and the way his parents were including it as equal to the Gospel message. Our congregation (which had it's own Torah scroll) worshiped without rabbinical teachings, but did not exclude rabbinicalism wholesale. Because it was what all of our parents had been raised in. We still observed some oral Torah rituals, but we did not teach that they were binding upon all the congregation. Only a way to relate to our heritage we were called from.

Same reason I observe hanukkah, because I grew up observing it. Did I light my candles from right to left, sure. Do I now, yep. Do I think it's God's command? lol no. I do it because I was raised doing it.

Here in the SW however, is another story all together. There are only 2 MJ congregations in my area, and both are dead to the wind. I'm so sick of being the token Jew, even in a Messianic Jewish congregation. I have no fellowship at the moment. First time in a long time. But God will get me through even this....amen

 

[Shimshon]

Let us be clear here... When a person jumps in and saves you from drowning it has nothing to do with the law of the land, but has to do with compassion, mercy and grace which includes the forgiveness of making the mistake of getting yourself in such a position in the first place. The Law of the Land stands and is the way of good citizens in the land.

.

 

[ContraMundum]

That's not what I said. But you go on ahead and misinterpret me. I'll not defend myself further since we seem to have a communications breakdown.

No, Shim is right about this. You are making contradictory statements here. It's not a misinterpretation. If you feel are not understood, please don't blame the reader, just clarify.

 

[ContraMundum]

Let us be clear here... When a person jumps in and saves you from drowning it has nothing to do with the law of the land, but has to do with compassion, mercy and grace which includes the forgiveness of making the mistake of getting yourself in such a position in the first place. The Law of the Land stands and is the way of good citizens in the land.

Makes no sense. Sorry Vis. You are not being clear again. You are a very difficult person to understand when you speak in anecdotes that say nothing about what you think people are obligated to observe etc.

 

[yedida]

No, Shim is right about this. You are making contradictory statements here. It's not a misinterpretation. If you feel are not understood, please don't blame the reader, just clarify.

One last time. Perhaps I just can't figure the words to use. I believe in salvation by grace through faith. This salvation stands whether or not one is TO or not.
Nope, the words won't come, but that's okay I don't have to have your approval I've got God's, and that's good enough for me.