Easy G (G²);58930577 said:
The diversity is there indeed, though I was not aware of how Chosen people were against practincing things that're Jewish apart from Shabbat and the Holidays. If you have more reference for this, I'd appreciate it.
Perhaps we're thinking of two differing "Chosen People" ministries..
The only one I know is
Chosen People Ministries, founded in Brooklyn, New York in 1894 by Rabbi Leopold Cohn. They
used to go out of their way when you inquired, to make the distinction that they are "NOT Messianic Jews". Looks like the info has recently changed on their website. I find that rather interesting. Years back, any time I asked, I got "the look" and told no.
I had inquired about some of their monthly pamphlets, and had gotten a few before I moved to my new apartment, and most of it was pretty much like J4J. Very Dispensational, Pre-Trib, you name it, it has it.. They were kind of like reading a J4J Monthly letter meets Zola Levitt Letter.
The congregational umbrella for MJ here in Germany is
Beit Sar Shalom. If there is a congregation here, they know of it. Most are Russian based in the East, with a few here in the West that are also Russian-based. The two closest to us only have services in Russian. When I looked into attending and asked if services were also in German, I was informed that they only speak Russian there, and it would be "uncomfortable" to add German. How in G-d's earth did we find them, since they're attending in a church in the next city? (well duh, we asked - that's how!) It was
very strange.
When we had asked prior as to where they stood on doctrine/how the services were done etc - It was explained it was pentecostal with a tendency towards Reform Judaism. I thought "ok, well.. I guess we will just have to see how that would be.." and kept an open mind about checking them out. That's when we got the cold shoulder.
The closest one that offers German services, and is said to be somewhere between Reform and Conservative in practice, but more like a Baptist congregation (and mostly older folks) is south of us by almost 3 hours. If we went, we'd spend the entire weekend with family (an hr away from there), but it couldn't be a regular thing. Gas is at over 9$ a gallon, and I can't see making a 2 day trip with preschoolers, diapers, and food on hand for a trip there and back plus the entire day.
Easy G (G²);58930577 said:
The ways that MJ is expressed around the world, as opposed to within North America, is very much a pertinent point to consider when it comes to trying to examine what specific problems happen on a large scale---and showing whether it's isolated..and if so, why that may be the case.
See, that's kind of what I am thinking as well.
Easy G (G²);58930577 said:
If you could give more clarity on what it is that you meant by the Prohibition documentary relating to the discussion here, that'd be helpful (IMHO)--as I've heard of it and wasn't certain as to what it was that you meant in regards to discussing all of the variations that're allowed to flourish within MJ Headings and that take on much of the baggage (good and bad) of the organizations that are essentially host organizations which they grow up or out from.
Some of it has to do with the temperance movement, some of it has to do with WASP-type beliefs. It tends to be broken down some as to whichever congregation the MJ core group came out of or is sponsored by. Which is why in many groups, you find basic Baptist beliefs, including pre tribulational rapture, pre-wrath, anti-liturgy/anti-tradition (other than Baptist), anti-Judaism, dispensational, covenental, Calvanistic (
Three,
four and
five point) theology, OSAS/OSNAS... There's a range between SBC and IBC thought in that group. - then you have those coming out of the Methodist groups, which tend to lean more Arminian (though sometimes leaning more Calvanist), traditionalist, holding to sacremental theology and also liturgy - open (though not always) to the ideas and avenues of Rabbinic thought as it relates to practice of MJ.
My experience with Hebrew Catholics has been limited, but those I have known equally hold Messianic Beliefs along with tenants of Catholicism and see no difference or "split" in the two belief systems. One friend kept wholly kosher to the 9s, while the other disagreed on the concept of cheese and meat - not sure if that was due to his Sephardic stint on things or not.
Where I was going with the issue brought forward about the Prohibition - is that most the congregations born out of the WASP group, tend to believe in the morality of legislating morality, pushing political leanings and thoughts from the pulpit or classroom, and if you aren't of their leaning, somehow something's wrong with you or you're less American or less religious or "whatever".
That everything's cut and dry, white and black - no shades of gray.. Using the term "biblical" is really meaning "Our understanding of what is Biblical based on our understanding of the KJV 1611 AV and our doctrine and dogma - if you believe differently than us, you're a heretic." The whole "only we are the true church, everyone else is in hell" -- the classic jokes about how you'll see one denomination in the liquor store, and the other one will be only coming in at hours no one who knows them will see them purchasing... Heavy on outreach to non-WASP groups, to "save them from their cultural ills" - that kind of thing.
Easy G (G²);58930577 said:
Right there with ya..especially on what you noted on Two House theory, as the leader of the fellowship I attend doesn't support it nor do many others due to the extreme variations that seemed to be demonstrated in those who did hold to it---though I personally believe that it is not inaccurate on all points...and I appreciate others such as John McKee of TNN who has gone through into much detail covering the issue/trying to be as balanced as possible. His variation is the one I'd hold to the most, even though I may not agree with him on all points of what he believes either...and the same goes for other organizations, such as the ones you listed.
Ultimately, the only person I agree with 100% is myself--and even then, that's debatable in light of how there's constant reformation/development of views.
haha. I really like John and Mark Huey. Met them quite a few times when I was still in Alabama. They and Tony Robinson were frequent features at our congregation. I don't believe the same as him and Mark on a few points, but I find that probably comes from our different stems of theological backgrounds, and probably also the difference in our cultural upbringing.
For me, I find two house interesting, but not in the MIA way of making everyone who ever is saved and not genetically Jewish = of the two houses (basically WWCOG theology lite) - I believe that the people are out there, and will be found, or are out there and have been re-absorbed into the general Jewish population at large. I allow a bit of variation in that, as history just unfolds itself.
Easy G (G²);58930637 said:
By the "H" word I'm assuming you mean either "herectic" or "hell" really, correct?
I meant heretic. Hell's bandied about a lot. That's not one that'd shock me. Even being told I'm going there is no more a shocker. It's how easily "heretic" is bandied about that does.
Easy G (G²);58930637 said:
Regardless, I can see where it is that you're coming from since many times people not fully aware of what it means to be Jewish can have ALOT of negative reactions when seeing what Jews take seriously..though they may have no issue if someone says that other Jews are reaching out to Jewish people and they're not aware of what it looks like since they may have the mindset that outreach looks essentially like how they'd either prefer...or how it occurred with them. In many ways, being either covert or wise with how one presents a situation is very necessary when allowing Jewish ministries to flourish within Gentile churches...and amazingly so, the same goes for not letting OTHER Messianic fellowships know what the other does since some already feel that others are in error for even letting Gentiles have significant impact in decisions in mixed congregations---thus, leading them to go on crusades against other fellowships via gossip or "whisper campaigns" where they try to poison the well for anyone considering going to a differing fellowship.
Exactly. It's kind of sad actually. You can't let the right hand know what the left hand's doing or a cancer will break out and attack both hands.
I think you get me.
