Are you part of Mainstream Messianic Judaism?

[Gxg (G²)]

The only scholars worth listening to, and who have done real studies are from mainstream MJism. The outsiders are rarely worth a pinch of salt in their scholarship. I'll take Jacob Prasch, Arnold Fructenbaum, David Stern, Alfred Edersheim and a whole array of similar names over the fringe element any day.

I'd add Dr.Michael Brown and Dan Juster, alongside some others to the list. And on the issue, I'd also think of those involved in the Messianic Movement who are very much connected with the scholars of the movement and yet bringing the Gospel to the streets via evangelism/discipleship. Hazakim definately does an excellent job of that, IMHO---if you recall where you and I had a mini-discussion on them in another thread when it came to discussing Jews/Regaee and Hip Hop culture (as seen here in #15 and from interview with their recording Label in the article entitled Lamp Mode Recordings » Hazakim Interview.):

Regen+Nation: Interview with Michael of Hazakim (@hazakim) - YouTube

The Chopping Block Discipleship - Lampmode recordings ​

I've loved following their stuff over the years--especially as it concerns their insights on the ways that Hebraic culture should impact the way you see the world. Seeing how they're very unashamed of their Messianic/Hebraic heritage, I've always been highly impressed with the ways in which they work with groups that may not agree with what they do fully. In example, I was able to find this in regarss to the record label they're with and some of the dialouges they've had with others co-workers who may disagree with them when it comes to their theological viewpoints.

The Chopping Block Reformed Theology - Lampmode recordings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SkgMh2oGm0&feature=related​

​

It seemed very beneficial as it concerns demonstrating how others can disagree agreeably when it comes to sharing one's Messianic views in circles that are not Messianic since their record label ( Lamp Mode Records ) has others on it who are Reformed--yet they're all united together in spreading the Gospel to others (via the avenue of Hip Hop and Urban culture) and seeing the ways that the Lord works throughout all aspects of the church/its people. I really enjoyed the ways that Hazakim handled themselves when sharing their perspective and discussing how some things are simply mysteries rather than meant to be placed within a forumla.


As it concerns the original post, with where I'm at, I'd consider myself as apart of the Messianic movement and I've talked with enough Jewish individuals who feel likewise to no longer be uncomfortable with saying such in certain settings. #68

I voted that I wish we could get back to the days right after the assention in Jerusalem--and to be clear, I didn't do that because I don't consider myself Messianic. Rather, I did that because I think that debating over what is or isn't "Messianic" and if you're "in the club" often seems fultile...and it'd be interesting to see what both Jews/Gentiles in the early church had to say so that there could be clarity on all sides on what positions are to be FULLY upheld. It would also give much perspective if being able to go back/examine how the church operated by talking to people from that time....and seeing whether or not they'd actually be humored (or saddened) by what is being done in the name of being "Jewish" or "Torah Observant." Concerning my own experiences with considering this, I've been very thankful for the privelage of being able to attend Congregation Mishkan David in Marietta, GA..as well as the small group that they have on Thursday Nights, known as Mivdad Shem Kodesh. It has been enjoyable over the past 4 years being able to study the Torah and see differing aspects of Judaism played out when it comes to faith in Yeshua . even though there are some things about the fellowship that're a bit "unorthodox" when it comes to how relationships can develop. And to be clear, by "UnOrthodox" I don't mean in the sense of "error"--but rather, I mean it in the sense of being different than what I've heard about ALOT of places within Messianic Judaism. The leader of the fellowship, who grew up Messianic Jewish (Sephardic Jew, to be specific) and at one point was involved in the Eastern Orthodox church, has wanted the fellowship to be intentionally set up in a way that'd make us distinct since many of the things occurring in the name of the MJ movement are often RADICALLY opposed to what it means to be a disciple of the Lord....just as you've noted many times when it comes to the divergent opinions that can come up and yet not really be connected to anything remotely Jewish or reflecting how Hebraic thought expressed itself over the centuries. If interested, one can go online/listen to the sermons that've been taught in our fellowship here. There was actually one point where we had what was known as "MLS 101- Messianic Lifestyle and Spirituality Class", as seen here at Congregation Mishkan David - Lifestyle & Spirituality. It was 5 teachings covering the basics of Messianic Jewish Lifestyle and Spirituality. And there the leaders discuss Hebraic Christian history, theology, and practice to better understand what it means to live a Biblical lifestyle influenced from the Jewish spiritual path. We learned what it means to practice Hebraic Christian prayer and spirituality from a practical and meaningful perspective


For more:

MLS Part 1:​

Messianic_Living_Pt1.mp3​

MLS Part 2:
Messianic_Living_Pt2.mp3​

MLS Part 3:
Messianic_Living_Pt3.mp3​

MLS Part 4:
Messianic_Living_Pt4.mp3​

MLS Part 5:
Messianic_Living_Pt5.mp3​

Our fellowship is very connected with specific organizations within the Messianci Jewish movement---most notably, Ariel Ministries with Arnold Fructenbaum..as he came to our fellowship for a conference we sponsored (as seen here and here). As the leader of my fellowship is an avid scholar in Eastern Christianity and Jewish history, that same passion that he has had is something which has essentially shaped me in the way I tend to see things....and as a Black Hispanic/West Indian with a love for studying differing cultures and seeing the ways that the Hebraic impacts the worlds of Blacks, there are times when I can feel very different from others. I've learned how to be comfortable in that over the years---though it's still difficult---and the leader at my fellowship have discussed many times on how it's not about studying differing customs as much as it is about seeing what one's heritage is....and making up your own mind on it. I'd never want to be "trapped" within ONE movement alone after traveling in so many camps over the years....and thus, when it comes to being MESSIANIC, I tend to see it in terms of being connected to it rather than defined SOLELY by it.




The freedom I've been able to walk in in shaping my own views when it comes to what it means to be "Messianic" is something I'll forever be thankful for with how my MESSIANIC Congregation operates----and though I may develop further over the years, I'm glad for how I've been able to develop/reform on things. As it concerns myself, where I stand is with those within Messianic Judaism that are very much charismatic in practice (as seen here in #1 ) and who are deeply connected with those parts of the church that're liturgical in nature (as discussed here ). I'd also tend to stand with those within Messianic Judaism who are very much about recognizing the extensive ways in which the Lord has revealed himself to all camps within Christendom and the Body---having the mindset that the Lord desires for His people to be a living Mosaic (as discussed here in #30 ). I appreciate those with the mindset that doesn't have be a Jew in order to be "Messianic"---and in my view, there are many differing ways in which one can be Messianic and express one's Jewish heritage when considering all that has occurred within Church history with Jewish people in multicultural settings ( as discussed here, here , here, here and here in #68 / #208 ).



But ultimately, what matters for me is whether the name of Yeshua is truly being glorified and honored above all names. Preaching the Gospel UNCUT and RAW..and ensuring that others know that Jesus/Yeshua was truly their Passover Lamb as Hazakim said best:

Hazakim - Uncut and Raw​

Hazakim - Passover Lamb ​

Hazakim's "Evangelism" ​

 

[SGM4HIM]

I would probably attend a mainstream MJ group if I was not firmly rooted in current church leadership and worship team in our small community. I do listen to podcasts from the MJ group in Jacksonville Fl., and have taken my pastor to MJ group for a few services. Their worship dancers have come to our church a couple times with Ted Pearce.

Each fall we collect offerings and have made it possible for over 10 Jewish Soviet families to move to Israel.

The NT is full of examples of communal assemblies from many diverse lands. The very early church was all about structure and organization. This is the model given in Acts. Everybody did not agree with everyone else 100%! We see examples thee Holy Spirit moving profoundly through these groups.

If folks think so called MJ or Christian mainstream churches are full of people not seeking "deeper truth", perhaps you haven't experienced the right one lately, or maybe it's just you.......

 

[visionary]

http://aechurch.2day.ws/ Sunday 23rd October 2011

We have had a fantastic weekend with Brian Gemmel as our teacher, speaking on the subject 'Preparing the Bride for Departure'. He spoke with compassion and a depth of study accompanied with real life experience. His teachings will be available on the site or you may obtain Cd's of the recordings by contacting us. We were pleased to welcome a lot of visitors on both days and our singing was worshipful and a match for any Welsh choir.

Friday 4th November we have the return visit of internationally renowned speaker Jacob Prasch, a man of integrity who works amongst the poor and persecuted around the world giving so much of himself so that others may understand more of God's Grace. He will be speaking on the theme 'The Bible in the Final Days' and be relevant to what is actually happening in these final days.

 

[visionary]

Arnold Fruchtenbaum was born in 1943 in Siberia, Russia after his Jewish father — falsely accused of being a Nazi spy when he fled Poland from Hitler — was released from a Communist prison. With the help of the Israeli underground in 1947, the Fruchtenbaum family escaped from behind the Iron Curtain to Germany, where they were confined to British Displaced Persons' camps. There, Arnold received Orthodox Jewish training from his father before the family finally immigrated to New York in 1951. Before their release, however, the family was befriended by a Lutheran minister; and it was this contact that eventually led Arnold and his mother to the New York headquarters of the American Board of Missions to the Jews (ABMJ). Five years later, this same meeting brought Arnold, at age 13, to saving knowledge of Jesus the Messiah.

His father strongly opposed Arnold's beliefs, and when the family moved to Los Angeles in 1958, Arnold was forbidden to read the Bible, attend Christian meetings or associate with Jewish- Christian groups. Under these difficult circumstances, Arnold continued as best he could to maintain contact with Jewish believers and to walk with the Lord.

Upon graduating from high school, Arnold was forced by his father to leave home because of his faith. In 1962, he began undergraduate education at Shelton College in New Jersey. Transferring to Ohio's Cedarville College, he graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Hebrew and Greek in 1966. He then moved to Israel, where he studied archaeology, ancient history, historical geography, and Hebrew at the American Institute of Holy Land Studies and the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. During this time, he witnessed the historic Six-Day War in 1967. Later that year, Arnold returned to the U.S. and entered Dallas Theological Seminary for studies in Hebrew and Old Testament. He also began working as a missionary with ABMJ (today, Chosen People Ministries).

Ariel Ministries: Biography of Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

 

[visionary]

Reverend Alfred Edersheim was the second minister of Free Church known then as Old Machar Free Church. After twelve years at Free Church, Alfred's health started failing, he resigned and moved to Torquay in the county of Devon, England. In 1861, he gathered a congregation and in 1862 they built St. Andrews Presbyterian Church in Torwood Gardens, Torquay. Because of deteriorating health problems he had to resign from St. Andrews and moved to Bournemouth a spa on the south coast. In 1875 he became an Episcopalian and ordained a deacon and priest in the Church of England. For a year he was the (unsalaried) curate of the Abbey Church, Christ Church, Hants, near Bournemouth. In 1876 he became vicar of Loders, Dorsetshire; resigning in 1883, moving to Oxford, where he was select preacher to the University from 1884-86.

Biography of Alfred Edersheim | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Doesn't that describe Yeshua as He began His "outsider" ministry? As He worked against the mainstream establishment dominated by the Pharisees and Sadducees?
.

If I may say, Yeshua was not fully an "outsider" in the ministry he did. It'd perhaps be most similar to someone saying that they have Republican views, even though that means they don't necessarily adopt all things done in the name of the Right Wing camp---nor do they stand against the fact that there are a variety of degrees to which one can be a "Republican" and being one doesnt' mean you cannot adhere to what another group holds to on certain levels...similar to those who are Bipartisan.

AS IT STANDS, John 7 shows clearly how the Pharisees were divided amongst themselves.....with some believing in Jesus as well/trying to defend Him rather than acting as some of those on a power-trip.

Of course, Jesus does call the Pharisees out quite often. the times Jesus gets angry with the Pharisees is when they elevate tradition above the Scripture (Mark 7, Matthew 15)....... And although Jesus seemed to follow many of the Pharisaic customs, He obviously held the Word of God above the traditions of men. While Jesus may have theologically lined up with many of the teachings of the Pharisees, He never did so to the detriment of the Truth. Some of that was discussed more so in-depth in another thread that ended up discussing the nature of the Pharisees and the varieties within them..as seen here in #19, #50 here and here ..as wel as in the article entitled Pharisee History



In the Book entitled King of the Jews by D. Thomas Lancaster, there's a chapter devoted to the idea that, theologically speaking, Jesus was most likely a Pharisee.

According to the book, we usually think of Pharisees as EVIL DUDES (even though Nicodemus was one of the followers of Christ who was good/had His Back, John 3 , John 7:39-59, John 19:38-40 . In general, being associated with the Pharisees is not a good thing . But, says Lancaster, perhaps we have misunderstood exactly what was going on with Jesus and the Pharisees:

Gospel scholars have recently come to the shocking conclusion that not all Pharisees were hypocrites. In fact, the majority of them seemed to be pretty decent fellows! ... The simple point is that Yeshua (not to mention His brother James and His apostle Paul) was, for all practical purposes, a Pharisee. His theology, His hermeneutic, His parables, His argumentation, His conclusions and even His dinner invitations were Pharisaic in origin. While we cannot be overly dogmatic that Yeshua was a Pharisee, there is no other sect or form of faith in all of human history with which He shared a closer affinity. He conducted Himself as if He were one.



​

At one point, the book goes on to point out that the Pharisees are often with Jesus -- in more ways than one:

The Pharisees themselves were never far from Yeshua theologically or geographically. He was often a dinner guest in their homes, and they were often critics of His ministry. At times, some Pharisees vehemently opposed Him. On other occasions, they cheered Him on while He thwarted the Sadducees or nailed home a point of Torah. On another occasion, the Pharisees are depicted trying to rescue Him from Herod (Luke 13:31).


​

Indeed, some of the Pharisees were critical of Jesus, but sometimes the questions they ask are simply that -- questions. They were not always trying to trap Him -- sometimes, they were genuinely seeking to know Jesus' theology. And, according to this book and other scholars, much of what we see Jesus do throughout the Gospels is in line with the Pharisaic tradition of the time. Jesus commends the Pharisees for tithing mint, dill and cumin -- something that was not part of biblical law, but was part of Pharisaic tradition (Matthew 23). Many of the parables of Jesus are actually old Pharisaic stories -- sometimes with different endings. Much of Jesus' thoughts on issues were in line with the teachings of the Rabbi Hillel -- a Pharisee.


As another said best:

Unlike the Pharisees, He did not allow Jewish tradition to be elevated to the same level as Scripture. He was quick to discard any traditions that contradicted the Word of God. He placed compassion above the stringencies of tradition, and He rebuked hypocrisy and pretense whenever He saw it. But He did all of this from within traditional Judaism and as a part of traditional Judaism.






​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Jesus did not advocate anarchy, and anarchy is therefore not good for theology. I can't believe people imagine that all change is good change.

I definately think that within Messiah, there's the dynamic of a Mosaic---with many differing views/interpretations flowing (provided they don't destroy His mission or character), just as it was with the apostles themselves who all came from an extensive myriad of backgounds and were essentially forced to get along.

However, outside of that, I don't think dissent is always a good thing to get involved in...

 

[yedida]

No, Jesus did not advocate anarchy, and anarchy is therefore not good for theology. I can't believe people imagine that all change is good change.

No, he didn't. But neither did he advocate that we stay in murky, muddied waters. Don't even attempt to convince that the church up to this point is not muddied. We have 10 commandments that we are to obey, but don't. We have a picture of a life that we are to live, but don't.
I would imagine that many who left the church for MJ, stayed and tried to implement changes to begin with, but got only stimied through it all and therefore had no other avenues but to move on.
It was time to leave. Babylon is going to fall.

 

[visionary]

One of the greatest attractions to MJ is the feasts of God, and one of the largest discouragements is the Jews who spout disobedience is allowed for Gentiles.

 

[yedida]

I know. It's a no-win situation whichever way one looks at it. So we have to look to what scripture says. Does it say "only Jews are to do this?" I don't think so. And where it does specifiy a type person (a levite for example), the passage is very clear as to the who and when.
It's going to come down to who wants to be obedient to the Father who showed us so much grace and mercy.

 

[WagginDog]

I voted no, but think about this. Count how many kippahs you have bought been given or made in your lifetime. 1 2 3 4? Multiply that by how many MJs there are and its a lotta kippah. Think about how many kippah you've lost, thrown away or worn through. Subtract the difference. Now make a spreadsheet and put in all the numbers for everyone you know.
Then use this formula -- K * I - P*P*A -H.
K is how many kippahs
I is income total
P is the number of people
A is the average price of a dinner for four
H is a number quantifying how happy you are
The person with the largest resulting number
is the one to buy dinner next time you meet.

 

[christianmomof3]

I voted no.
Do ya'll want to put me on some other group because I don't meet with a Messianic church?
I thought I was considered a Messianic Jew because I am a Jew and I am a born again Christian.
I learned on this forum that many people think that does not make me a Messianic Jew because I was raised in Reform Judaism and don't keep kosher or the sabbath and I don't think it is necessary for gentiles to do that.
I never heard the term kippah growing up - they were yarmulkes and it is pronounced yahmahkah - not sure why it is spelled with an "r" in it.

I have been studying both the Jewish and Christian religions and the more I learn, the better the Jewish religion looks and the worse the Christian religion looks and the better the Old Testament looks and the worse the New Testament looks.
I lump the Messianic Judaism religion in there w/ the Christian religions.

One thing that I love about Judaism is that it allows and encourages questioning and does not insist on any one "right" answer so that therefore one concept must be "right" and all the others are "wrong" the way the many Christian groups do.
Sorry for venting.
That does not mean that I don't believe in Christ.
I do belive in Christ.
I just don't believe in Christianity.
At least not all of it.

 

[yedida]

I voted no.
Do ya'll want to put me on some other group because I don't meet with a Messianic church?
I thought I was considered a Messianic Jew because I am a Jew and I am a born again Christian.
I learned on this forum that many people think that does not make me a Messianic Jew because I was raised in Reform Judaism and don't keep kosher or the sabbath and I don't think it is necessary for gentiles to do that.
I never heard the term kippah growing up - they were yarmulkes and it is pronounced yahmahkah - not sure why it is spelled with an "r" in it.

I have been studying both the Jewish and Christian religions and the more I learn, the better the Jewish religion looks and the worse the Christian religion looks and the better the Old Testament looks and the worse the New Testament looks.
I lump the Messianic Judaism religion in there w/ the Christian religions.

One thing that I love about Judaism is that it allows and encourages questioning and does not insist on any one "right" answer so that therefore one concept must be "right" and all the others are "wrong" the way the many Christian groups do.
Sorry for venting.
That does not mean that I don't believe in Christ.
I do belive in Christ.
I just don't believe in Christianity.
At least not all of it.

I agree with you about Judaism. I love it that you can ask literally anything and not get beaten up over it. I have many questions about the NT and I ask them on a Judaism forum, things that can't really be discussed here cos everyone would misunderstand that it's just a simple question; not a statement against anything.
And I don't think you have put on some other group. There are a lot of folks who don't attend messianic services for one reason or another.
I'm in a venting mood myself! So jump on in, the water's fine.

 

[ChavaK]

I voted no.
Do ya'll want to put me on some other group because I don't meet with a Messianic church?
I thought I was considered a Messianic Jew because I am a Jew and I am a born again Christian.
I learned on this forum that many people think that does not make me a Messianic Jew because I was raised in Reform Judaism and don't keep kosher or the sabbath and I don't think it is necessary for gentiles to do that.
I never heard the term kippah growing up - they were yarmulkes and it is pronounced yahmahkah - not sure why it is spelled with an "r" in it.

I have been studying both the Jewish and Christian religions and the more I learn, the better the Jewish religion looks and the worse the Christian religion looks and the better the Old Testament looks and the worse the New Testament looks.
I lump the Messianic Judaism religion in there w/ the Christian religions.

One thing that I love about Judaism is that it allows and encourages questioning and does not insist on any one "right" answer so that therefore one concept must be "right" and all the others are "wrong" the way the many Christian groups do.
Sorry for venting.
That does not mean that I don't believe in Christ.
I do belive in Christ.
I just don't believe in Christianity.
At least not all of it.

Do you see yourself being involved in the Messianic faith at some point
in the future?

 

[ContraMundum]

I voted no.
Do ya'll want to put me on some other group because I don't meet with a Messianic church?
I thought I was considered a Messianic Jew because I am a Jew and I am a born again Christian.
I learned on this forum that many people think that does not make me a Messianic Jew because I was raised in Reform Judaism and don't keep kosher or the sabbath and I don't think it is necessary for gentiles to do that.

I feel that you have been subjected to a lot of prejudice here on this little forum. What you learned from this forum about your identity as a MJ is a lie, perpetuated by Gentiles, I believe. You are a Messianic Jew- according to real MJism- whether these people say so or not.

What have I learned on this forum? I have learned that there are basically few true "Torah-scroll-icon" Messianics on this forum, maybe ani and Tish and shimshon and only two of them are actual Messianic Jews- ani and shimshon (forgive me if I forgot someone). The others represent their own personal religions and elevate them to represent the whole movement, which is a false witness.

I have also learned that anyone can slap a Torah scroll on as their icon and preach the same doctrine as the liberal Christians or worse.

In the other hand, I have learned also that I could easily sign off on MJAA doctrine, with little exception, which means I can relate to many of the Messianics here (ani, Shim, Easy, and a few more) and especially around the world on a deeper than apparent level. That is a great thing I have picked up here. I can speak at and been invited to speak at Messianic congregations and the invitations keep coming. It's very healing and good.

Why do I mention this? Don't be discouraged! There are people out there who are sane and even understand us.

I have been studying both the Jewish and Christian religions and the more I learn, the better the Jewish religion looks and the worse the Christian religion looks and the better the Old Testament looks and the worse the New Testament looks.
I lump the Messianic Judaism religion in there w/ the Christian religions.

My experience is the opposite. Thanks to this forum and what I have learned about non-Jews trying to be Jewish, I am beginning to resent my Jewish upbringing and the bigotry it taught me. I come here and I realize that non-Jews are very attracted to the worst things in Judaism and not the best things.

What can I say? It's a weird world.

Oh and to the forum matriarchs: Please only hit the report button once at a time, as constant clicking will wear out the buttons on your mouse needlessly.

 

[ContraMundum]

Friday 4th November we have the return visit of internationally renowned speaker Jacob Prasch, a man of integrity who works amongst the poor and persecuted around the world giving so much of himself so that others may understand more of God's Grace. He will be speaking on the theme 'The Bible in the Final Days' and be relevant to what is actually happening in these final days.

I encourage you to speak personally to Jacob about your theology regarding the law. He is very approachable.

 

[ContraMundum]

Of which you will continue to reject.

Oh plu-eeze! I only reject your version of theology, Vis. That doesn't mean I reject MJism as a whole. Goodness.

 

[ContraMundum]

No, he didn't. But neither did he advocate that we stay in murky, muddied waters. Don't even attempt to convince that the church up to this point is not muddied. We have 10 commandments that we are to obey, but don't. We have a picture of a life that we are to live, but don't.

Everyone- repeat everyone breaks the commandments, and all of the churches officially teach them.

Can you find me a Messianic group that is not muddied with sin and error?

I would imagine that many who left the church for MJ, stayed and tried to implement changes to begin with, but got only stimied through it all and therefore had no other avenues but to move on.
It was time to leave. Babylon is going to fall.

If the Church falls, MJism goes with it. Sorry, to give you the truth, but that is it. MJism is part of the church. Some so-called Messianics have left. Mainstream Messianics are prepared to accept the scriptural truth that the Church is the Body of Christ- people who attend church may or may not be in that Body. Likewise, I think there are Messianics that are not in the Body either. I have met them.

Furthermore, to attack the Body is to attack the Lord. To equate the Body with Babylon is a demonic heresy from the pits of Hell, as Babylon is never described as the blood-bought followers of the Christ in the Bible.

 

[ContraMundum]

One of the greatest attractions to MJ is the feasts of God, and one of the largest discouragements is the Jews who spout disobedience is allowed for Gentiles.

Fact or opinion? I cannot think of a single person I have ever met that said they didn't want to become Messianic because a Jew told them that they are allowed to sin.

 

[pat34lee]

If the Church falls, MJism goes with it. Sorry, to give you the truth, but that is it. MJism is part of the church. Some so-called Messianics have left. Mainstream Messianics are prepared to accept the scriptural truth that the Church is the Body of Christ- people who attend church may or may not be in that Body. Likewise, I think there are Messianics that are not in the Body either. I have met them.

Furthermore, to attack the Body is to attack the Lord. To equate the Body with Babylon is a demonic heresy from the pits of Hell, as Babylon is never described as the blood-bought followers of the Christ in the Bible.

The church as an organization is not the body. The people of Yeshua are the body, inside or outside any religious affiliation.

The RCC, and to a lesser extent, her daughters, the protestant churches are political bodies as well as religious ones. And the higher in each organization one looks, the more worldly and corrupt they are. That is one of the problems having large groups with paid leaders. The more power (including money) they wield, the more likely they are to be corrupted by it.