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Christian Marriage

Judy02

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My interpretation actually avoids the problem of the terminology and goes right for the heart of things, which is what is submit to one another in love, the whole direction of Eph 4 and 5.

The key to it all is understanding how Christ loved the church according to his words and actions, understanding how the church responded to Christ at its best, and putting the two together. if you see it that way it is astonishingly freeing. We don't need to worry per se about which translation it is because Jesus' actions are clear.

What is Jesus' underlying purpose as a leader? It is ultimately to unite us with God. To see God through him. It is not to treat people as servants but rather to have them understand that we are joint heirs with him.

What is the purpose of the church? To respond to that. To actually live by faith.

So essentially what Paul is really saying is that in marriage we should be good friends to one another, love one another, be honest with one another, be generous towards one another.

You come across as a very reasonable, genuine and caring person :) I do actually think that if more people focused on who Jesus was, and how we were to love one another, there would probably be more happier marriage, than the focus on "who must be in charge"... A man (or woman) cannot be domineering, as Christ modelled a radical new way to live. He chose to become a servant, He washed his disciples' feet, he told them not to lord it over one another, and said that a child was the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. I do find it strange how people seem to fixate more on the verses to wives more than husbands sometimes. Clearly the men make sacrifices too :)

Judy, as you may notice, there are as many opinions about submission as there are noses on faces. This subject has caused quite a lot of uproar on this forum.

I have never liked the 'idea' of submission. It seemed to me that it made women lesser than men, because it suggested that the wife was not as capable as the husband, but I believe that God speaks to men and women equally, and does not give anyone special grace to 'know best' in any given situation. So, from debating this to and fro, my thinking on submission now is that I will take the Bible as a WHOLE when it comes to marriage, because, I don't believe that one line of scripture is the whole basis of marriage and that, without it, the marriage will fail or will not be the 'right' marriage or even - outrageously - that the husband or wife is sinful if they do not follow this one scripture.

We are commanded to love, and we are told what love is ("love is kind, love is patient ..") and we are told to submit to each other, and we are told that we are equal before God. That's what I take from it. We are equal in His eyes, equally loved, and totally responsible for our personal sins. That's fine with me, and that's what I'm allll about!

:thumbsup: Wise post!

Thank you. :) My husband is similar in that respect. I've told you guys some of the issues I had with trying to be the all submissive wife because I was told that that was how I was supposed to be. Come to find out after all that, he hated it as much as I did. It really made him uncomfortable.

I have heard some males are uncomfortable with this kind of teaching as well. It is encouraging that it is not just some women. I always wonder whether it's just controlling types who are insistant on being in charge (not people who subscribe to a more traditional view on this subject) but the ones who constantly bring up and insist how their wife needs to "obey" them. :sick: My brother can be one of those types. He can be quite controlling and domineering at times, I think he'd be ready to make some comment if I didn't promise to "obey" my husband in a wedding ceremony. I wouldn't, just because of the negative associations with that word, I wouldn't want anyone to get the impression I was accepting and encouraging a master slave relationship. Who seriously wants to marry into that anyway, if they had the choice? Not that I'm planning to get married anyway, but yeah...But more laid back, passive personality types and more dominant personality types do exist amongst both genders.

I do think for the most part, unless there's signs of abuse and nastiness, as long as a couple love one another, and tend to treat each other well for the most part, what goes on in other people's marriage is between themselves and God, and no one else's business. (Unless they actually ask others for advice! ;)) And considering how varied the views are on this subject, none of us should be in a place to tell others they are not obeying God in their marriage.

Although I do realise there are nice, caring men out there who do happen to go along with the more conservative stance on this issue and do actually love, treasure and consider their wives. I think what concerns me the most though, is that men who are big headed, controlling, bossy etc can use an interpretation of scripture to manipulate and oppress women and see it as an excuse to get their own way. I do realise, there are bossy and abusive women out there too in marriages, but the potential to use God, the bible and religion to justify their abuse is not there. I do wonder if in years to come, the conservative viewpoint will be less apparent and some people may decide they misunderstood Paul's views on women, just like they did at one point on slavery.

Anyway, I'm rambling I suppose. Thanks for the thoughts, I kinda feel like this thread's run its course now really, so will probably just unsubscribe now. Thanks and God bless you all :)
 
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JRSut1000

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Well, for one it would be stupid of a wife to not say anything at all! That's NOT what submission is! People have a really negative perspective that's highly inaccurate. Submission is an attitude of respect more than anything. While I see my husband as the leader, we still discuss and work things through and the final thing comes down to him, but he doesn't just ignore my input.
 
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FaithPrevails

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Well, for one it would be stupid of a wife to not say anything at all! That's NOT what submission is! People have a really negative perspective that's highly inaccurate. Submission is an attitude of respect more than anything. While I see my husband as the leader, we still discuss and work things through and the final thing comes down to him, but he doesn't just ignore my input.

This is how we roll in my house, too. :)
 
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Boidae

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Well, for one it would be stupid of a wife to not say anything at all! That's NOT what submission is! People have a really negative perspective that's highly inaccurate. Submission is an attitude of respect more than anything. While I see my husband as the leader, we still discuss and work things through and the final thing comes down to him, but he doesn't just ignore my input.

What I was saying, just didn't come out in what I typed is that I'm perfectly fine with not making the final decision all the time. I don't need to always make the final decision. My wife is fully capable of making final decisions as well and she does do it in our marriage. She'll take my input and not ignore it.

It's what works for us.
 
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JaneFW

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What I was saying, just didn't come out in what I typed is that I'm perfectly fine with not making the final decision all the time. I don't need to always make the final decision. My wife is fully capable of making final decisions as well and she does do it in our marriage. She'll take my input and not ignore it.

It's what works for us.
And there is nothing wrong with that! Don't let anyone tell you that you are doing it wrong, or your marriage isn't Christian, or you are sinning or anything else.

This is how we conduct our marriage also, because my husband did not want me to be submissive. We are equal. Whoever is the wisest and most knowlegeable on the matter gets the final word.
 
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FaithPrevails

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What I was saying, just didn't come out in what I typed is that I'm perfectly fine with not making the final decision all the time. I don't need to always make the final decision. My wife is fully capable of making final decisions as well and she does do it in our marriage. She'll take my input and not ignore it.

It's what works for us.

I know you weren't addressing me, but I want to address it anyway, if that is OK with you.

The whole decision making discussion of submission seems to get taken down to a microscopic level at times. For me, viewing my husband as the final decision maker does not mean that I am completely devoid of the ability or authority to make a decision. I make decisions on a daily basis.

What it does mean to me and in my marriage is that any major decision is discussed, prayed over, and hubby will say "final answer". (I had a thread on this topic that addressed what to do if "final answer" was a sin, so I won't get into that here).

I did know a couple some years ago who viewed the whole decision making thing at a microscopic level. The wife had to ask her husband permission to take a shower while he watched the kids. That, to me, is ridiculous.
 
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Boidae

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I know you weren't addressing me, but I want to address it anyway, if that is OK with you.

The whole decision making discussion of submission seems to get taken down to a microscopic level at times. For me, viewing my husband as the final decision maker does not mean that I am completely devoid of the ability or authority to make a decision. I make decisions on a daily basis.

What it does mean to me and in my marriage is that any major decision is discussed, prayed over, and hubby will say "final answer". (I had a thread on this topic that addressed what to do if "final answer" was a sin, so I won't get into that here).

I did know a couple some years ago who viewed the whole decision making thing at a microscopic level. The wife had to ask her husband permission to take a shower while he watched the kids. That, to me, is ridiculous.

She has made final decisions on major things as well.

As I said in my first reply. I don't want a submissive wife and wife certainly is not submissive.
 
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Athene

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In the culture they were written in, under Mosaic law, Roman law, and even Egyptian law women were perfectly able to own money, property, or even slaves in their own right. (While having little political freedom).

The Bible calls upon women to submit to their husbands not because the law forced them to do so, but because they DID NOT have to do so in secular law. It is a Biblical ideal, as Christ is the Head of the Church (yet still He is submissive to the Father).

Is that right. And I suppose the Bible tells slaves to submit to their masters because secular law didn't require them too. Honestly .....
 
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FaithPrevails

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She has made final decisions on major things as well.

As I said in my first reply. I don't want a submissive wife and wife certainly is not submissive.

I don't recall saying you had to have one. I don't recall JRSutt saying you did, either. But you seemed defensive in response to her post.

FWIW, I've made major decisions, too. I was the one who decided that I would not have an epidural when my daughter was born. I'm the one who has decided that I am going to try and go completely drug-free with the next delivery. My husband would never consider trying to impose what *he* thinks would be best with regards to childbirth onto me since it's my body.

I just don't see the whole decision making process and who gets final say as the power struggle that you seem to see it as.
 
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Athene

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Well, for one it would be stupid of a wife to not say anything at all! That's NOT what submission is! People have a really negative perspective that's highly inaccurate. Submission is an attitude of respect more than anything. While I see my husband as the leader, we still discuss and work things through and the final thing comes down to him, but he doesn't just ignore my input.


Why is it inaccurate? Do you deny that for centuries women have been abused by their husbands, by a religion which said they were inferior, and a social and political system that was highly influenced by religion?
 
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dallasapple

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Is that right. And I suppose the Bible tells slaves to submit to their masters because secular law didn't require them too. Honestly .....

I know..I thought if someone wants to believe women had equal rights to men..and were not treated as property ...could marry or not marry.buy a houseif they wanted..provide for themselves..in the cities where Paul was intstructing during Biblical times then I just dont know what to say..

Women werent even allowed to get a divorce if the husband didnt agree..but he could her..the list goes on ..but ..its not worth it to me if someone is that determined to believe otherwise..to have to "provide evidence' for something that is commonly known and accepted as truth is too daunting of a prospect for me these days..

Dallas
 
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chaz345

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I do find it strange how people seem to fixate more on the verses to wives more than husbands sometimes. Clearly the men make sacrifices too :)

Actually I see this go both ways. All too often we see wives too focused on God's instructions to their husbands and husbands too fixated on His commands to their wives.

Having said that I do think there is a huge difference between A wife in a general conversation here saying "God calls my husband too_______" or a husband saying"God tells women to________" and those things being said at home to their spouse.
 
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Created2Write

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If a husband absolutely says "NO", then obviously as long as he isn't asking you to sin, then do so. I think it's straightforward. Not what many women want to hear, but that's how it is.

Many women when I say these things, will say that it leaves room for abuse. And I can't deny that, but Scriptures also say to submit like Sarah and not to have fear.

Submitting doesn't mean being a doormat, being a good wife means submitting, and being a good husband means leading.

To the wife, submit to husbands as unto the Lord (pretty serious huh?)

To the man, love wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her (pretty serious also!).

So both parties are addressed within the Scriptures. I find it best to worry about what I am doing to fulfill my responsibilities rather than trying to make sure my husband is in check with his roles/responsibilities.

Might I also mention this. Submitting doesn't mean going with everything without talking it over and offering her wisdom as well. God does give wives understanding, so it would be foolish to just clam up and never say anything to her husband.

Submitting is first an attitude of the heart before it can ever be actions. One can submit (the action), yet do so with a horrible, resentful attitude. In reality, this isn't submitting.

I haven't read much of the thread, but I had to quote this post because I agree with this strongly.
 
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Created2Write

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10 A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still night;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her female servants.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all.”
30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
31 Honor her for all that her hands have done,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

When my husband and I married, we had discussions about this...I insisted that he be the head of the household. In our faith tradition, a the home is to be a mirror of the Church. Therefore, it makes no sense for the head of the house to be a woman, when the Head of the Church is Christ. Gender conflict there.

That said, when we look at Proverbs 31, we see that the Biblical ideal was not slavish dependency on the "whims" of a husband, but that a woman was expected to be a manager, a provider, an investor who dealt in real estate and decide how to turn the assets to profit. She does not do those things which cause ruin (spiritual or physical) to her household, nor is she subject to mistrust. Her husband values her, honours her, and trusts her implicitly.

All the fallacious statements about how one person is the head of the household and the other a slave miss the point entirely. In another circumstance, should two people start a company, one is named as president, one as vice-president. The two use their knowledge to make a success of their venture, each seeking the advice of the other in an area where that person is strongest. However, if they disagree about how something should be done, the one has the authority to make the final decision. Does this mean a president does not value a vice-president? Or that the vice-president is chattel or a non-person, or has sub-normal intelligence? Of course not! Does a president exist to be empty of all thought, and only to ratify what his vice-president says, thus putting all control and power into that person, and nullifying his own value and contributions? Never!

In marriage, the concept of submission does not mean a woman has no value, and a man is a tyrant. In a wholesome, Christ-centred marriage, we consult each other, with care and love for the thoughts and feelings of the other, and regard for the expertise of the other, but then it comes time to make a final decision. My husband has that power, and because he knows it's a power, it is never, ever abused. Does he change his mind after discussing things with me? Absolutely, as I can change my mind after discussing things with him. Being the head of the household does not mean that he wakes up, makes a decision, and carves it in stone.

For those who say that a man should not be head of the household merely because he is a man, because being born male is not a qualifier for anything, you are quite correct. Men are born male, and then should from that day be trained in what it means to be a CHRISTIAN MAN. From birth they should be taught to love Christ, and make Him the centre of all things in life...from business deals to friends to choosing a Godly wife. From birth they must be taught to use their strength wisely, to love and to care for their family as Christ loves and cares for all of us. If from birth men are told they must care for and honour their wives, provide for their families, not antagonize their children, and grow strong in the Lord, then they will grow to be men suitable to take their place as head of a household dedicated to the Lord. It's the same with everything...in the corporate world, people do not become CEO without learning and being groomed for the job for years. In politics, one serves at lower levels, learning the ropes before becoming Prime Minister. With men, they must be trained from boyhood to become MEN. Being a Christian man is not a function merely of age, but of training.

We live in a society that does not care to provide that training. A man is mocked or abused for opening a car door for a woman, or holding a door for her in a public place. Women ignore the courtesy or care with snarls of "I can do that for myself!" Well, of course they can. No one, including the man holding the door, doubted it for a moment. It's just courtesy, something which is lacking today in the world. Courtesy, the care of others, and the willingness to hear and to listen and to give and take advice before a decision is made which affects others are vanishing from our society, in both men and women, to be replaced with an incessant struggle for "my rights".

In no place in the Bible do I find Christ saying that everyone is equal, except in their equality in Him. Men, where will you be if Christ asks you to account for how you treated your wives and children and if you provided for them, or if you thought the latest toys, cars, and entertainment to be more important than nurturing and providing? Women, where will you be if Christ asks you to account for how you treated your husbands and children, and if you nurtured them, and loved them, and provided for your home, and kept it in good repair, and in peace, and trusted in Christ, or if you thought that to prove equality you needed to argue with your husband over everything, and to rule your children without seeing their needs or fears or hopes?

Of course I'm not saying that all men and women who do not view male head of the household as the correct thing to do are bad, evil, or not providers, or not loving or caring. I am saying, however, that a militant insistence on being the same indicates a certain lack of trust in Christ, and what He said is best. Being a Christian is not based on works alone, but on faith. We must have that faith that Christ knew what He was talking about.


OUTSTANDING post!
 
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dallasapple

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She has made final decisions on major things as well.

As I said in my first reply. I don't want a submissive wife and wife certainly is not submissive.

Well you obviously have a very healthy self esteem then and are secure in your purpose as a man /human being and thats apparrently not derived from relying on being in "authority" of your wife and her submitting to you to keep you from feeling lost and without purpose..

Its seems there are men out there that without that..being "in charge' of a woman they become lost and sounds like even depressed.. believing they have no purpose as a man.

Sounds like you are very healthy emotionally that you dont feel threatened by sharing the responsiblilities of making the 'final decisions"..with a woman.

Dallas
 
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Why is it inaccurate? Do you deny that for centuries women have been abused by their husbands, by a religion which said they were inferior, and a social and political system that was highly influenced by religion?

What's being said is that an understanding of biblical submission as inherently abusive is inaccurate. The interpretations of scripture that have led to abuse were twisting the meaning of it. If you look at the character of Christ truthfully then submission to one another in love is liberating, not imprisoning. If we are all made in the imitation of God and are to act in imitation of Christ then we are all free. He who the son of man sets free is free indeed.
 
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Boidae

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Well you obviously have a very healthy self esteem then and are secure in your purpose as a man /human being and thats apparrently not derived from relying on being in "authority" of your wife and her submitting to you to keep you from feeling lost and without purpose..

Its seems there are men out there that without that..being "in charge' of a woman they become lost and sounds like even depressed.. believing they have no purpose as a man.

Sounds like you are very healthy emotionally that you dont feel threatened by sharing the responsiblilities of making the 'final decisions"..with a woman.

Dallas

Which is strange since I never had a father figure growing up until I hit the age of 16 when my mom married my step-father.

I was raised by a single mom and do have many "idiosyncrasies" that go along with that upbringing, but it could just be that my mother wasn't submissive (still isn't) and it's very much what I'm used to seeing and experiencing.
 
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chaz345

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Why is it inaccurate? Do you deny that for centuries women have been abused by their husbands, by a religion which said they were inferior, and a social and political system that was highly influenced by religion?

Yes I absolutely do deny that Christianity says that women are inferior. It's been twisted to look that way, by men who sought to control and more recently and more commonly today, by some women seeking "victim points."
 
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