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Christian Marriage

dallasapple

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Who said that those of us that don't see men as head don't have a decision making process? That doesn't even make an sense. There's also room for, "one, the other, or let's discuss this more, pray and try to see the other's view. People who are working toward the same goal, are going to work to agree.

I agree..its ridiculous to say if the man isnt making deciions then NO decisions are beign made...How in the heck do athiest stay married at a rate higher than Christians to boot..what do they have the "athiest ape male leader' hierarchy"?

Anyway there is also room for accepting that you may never agree at all on something..and one convincing the other to sacrifice which hopefully if you are comaptible to start with no "big" sacrifices have to be made..if so few and far between and a mutually "submissive" attitude comes into play then at the varying times..If you know your spouse is EQUALLY willing to go your way sometimes..it evens out in the end..

The other option is you can accept that you arent going to agree..and forget about it and move on to the rest of your life.

Dallas
 
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ex-pat

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Right..and there is NO reason why ONE spouse gets to make a DECISION for the other one in every disagreement over the eniterety of their LIVES..NONE..but especially if ALL its based on is GENDER.

Dallas


Ephesians 5:23

1 Corinthians 11:3

Genesis 3:16


Just some of the reasons.
 
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jehoiakim

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1. I feel like some people assume all married couples who have the male as a head are assuming he is a tyrant. I don't think it is that black and white at all.

2. I would prefer if the scriptures didn't place the man as the spiritual head, for arguments just like this. But we didn't write it. I don't understand how christians can be so upset for us for following the principal proposed in scripture, you can argue all you want with them, you raise interesting points, but when it comes down to it I myself and I know others feel like you really are stretching the scriptures to make your theology fit the way you want it to.

There are many of us who use the male as the head in a very "light" way, we are not abusive, listen intently, respect and love to our wives and try to lead with the wife participating and helping us decide as much as they are willing, I even push my wife to help me make decisions more then she wants to at times. Many of us are leading that way and we are not tyrants, but when it comes down to it we are afraid to oppose scripture and are just not convinced that you should interpret it differently... are we that bad for erring on the side of caution and taking the scripture literally?
 
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I agree..its ridiculous to say if the man isnt making deciions then NO decisions are beign made...How in the heck do athiest stay married at a rate higher than Christians to boot..what do they have the "athiest ape male leader' hierarchy"?

Anyway there is also room for accepting that you may never agree at all on something..and one convincing the other to sacrifice which hopefully if you are comaptible to start with no "big" sacrifices have to be made..if so few and far between and a mutually "submissive" attitude comes into play then at the varying times..If you know your spouse is EQUALLY willing to go your way sometimes..it evens out in the end..

The other option is you can accept that you arent going to agree..and forget about it and move on to the rest of your life.

Dallas

I think you misunderstand me. My husband's final decisions about our household are made after consultation with me, and as likely as not "go my way". Making decisions does not mean he chooses his "own" way, as he both knows and values my contributions to our household. There should be no equation between leadership and decision making and being a tyrannical two-year old who only wants it his way. You seem to believe that as the final decision rests with him, he takes nothing into account but his own whims, where nothing could be further from the truth.
 
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dallasapple

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Ephesians 5:23

1 Corinthians 11:3

Genesis 3:16


Just some of the reasons.

Look at the reasons that during that TIME that in THAT society women were PROPERTY of MEN..Period..Christianity was new..many of them were POLYGAMISTS..they were starting from SCRATCH..and in a society where women were NOT independent..they RELIED on MEN..

There are insturctions in there also on how to treat your slaves or how a slave is supposed to respond to his master.And just liek it doesnt applynow becasue slavery is abolished in our soceity..(at least here)..WOMEN no longer RELY on a MAN for her very basic NEEDS and for her survival ..and for her entire IDENTITY!

Its an ANTIQUATED structure..that was NEEDED for real reasons 2,000 years ago..A modern woman does NOT need a "male" either her father or a husband or a brother or brother in law to PROVIDE for her and protect her becasue she is not CRIPPLED by society any longer with the social status of a SECOND class ciitizen..

Dallas
 
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JRSut1000

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I think you misunderstand me. My husband's final decisions about our household are made after consultation with me, and as likely as not "go my way". Making decisions does not mean he chooses his "own" way, as he both knows and values my contributions to our household. There should be no equation between leadership and decision making and being a tyrannical two-year old who only wants it his way. You seem to believe that as the final decision rests with him, he takes nothing into account but his own whims, where nothing could be further from the truth.

:wave: Same here!
 
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EmilyF

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1. I feel like some people assume all married couples who have the male as a head are assuming he is a tyrant. I don't think it is that black and white at all.

2. I would prefer if the scriptures didn't place the man as the spiritual head, for arguments just like this. But we didn't write it. I don't understand how christians can be so upset for us for following the principal proposed in scripture, you can argue all you want with them, you raise interesting points, but when it comes down to it I myself and I know others feel like you really are stretching the scriptures to make your theology fit the way you want it to.
I would prefer it if people who have the husband as leader didn't create scenarios that suggest the rest of us have marriages where essentially we're running around like chickens with our heads cut off because no one is making a decision.

I and dallasapple, at least are not suggesting that anyone is a tyrant. We're merely suggesting that there is another way. We're taking those same verses and reading them in a cultural light instead of assuming that they have to be applied to all Christians everywhere.
 
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JRSut1000

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Was the "modern woman" God's idea? Even in the times of the Bible waaaay in the beginning (all the way back to Genesis), Sarah called her husband lord (master). I Peter 3 talks about this. It wasn't a slavery type of master, but it definitely was headship (not that she always followed his leadership, but when she didnt things didnt turn out so well).
 
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I would prefer it if people who have the husband as leader didn't create scenarios that suggest the rest of us have marriages where essentially we're running around like chickens with our heads cut off because no one is making a decision.

I and dallasapple, at least are not suggesting that anyone is a tyrant. We're merely suggesting that there is another way. We're taking those same verses and reading them in a cultural light instead of assuming that they have to be applied to all Christians everywhere.

In the culture they were written in, under Mosaic law, Roman law, and even Egyptian law women were perfectly able to own money, property, or even slaves in their own right. (While having little political freedom).

The Bible calls upon women to submit to their husbands not because the law forced them to do so, but because they DID NOT have to do so in secular law. It is a Biblical ideal, as Christ is the Head of the Church (yet still He is submissive to the Father).
 
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jehoiakim

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touche... I just want to make sure things stay civil is all, on these online forums sometimes it gets a little crazy. It is easy to read into things people say at times and make assumptions on tone and double meaning. I myself have been guilty of that at times:) If you have a respectful loving relationship with your husband, and both of you are legitimately content with how things go, then that is far more important to me then the technicality of how you accomplish it. I can agree to disagree on the minor things.

When we my wife and I first got married we read a lot of marital counceling books, and for the most part I felt like a bad guy, like all the books we written to convey the womans perspective... which in some ways I understand since the standard system of male leading was totally abused and women didn't have a voice, a lot of those were written to correct that. But in some marriages I feel there has been an "over correction" to where the man is now so submissive his opinions and thoughts don't matter...

ps the best marital counseling book I ever read that actually I think commincated a man's emotional needs was called love and respect. Sadly in general men have done a poor job at letting their wives know they are loved and women have done a bad job of letting the husband know they are respected.
 
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dallasapple

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We're not talking about the "modern woman". We're talking about modern society which is set up in a way that a woman can and does survive without a man. This is in opposition to a time when a woman truly could not survive without being taken care of by a man.

Exactly is this the twilight zone?..Females were just BORN back then just like they are just "born" today..they were "born" with just as many mental faculties and capabilites THEN as we are NOW.. but they were OPRESSED..they were born into a soceity that deliberately kept them DEPENDENT on MEN for thier very basic survival..

We aren't "modern" ...our time we live in has PROGRESSED to women not being treated as peices of property to be used for mens needs any longer..

A woman born then had NO right to just grow up and learn a skill of her choosing..earn a living and buy property..and fall in love and choose to marry and choose to have children or NOT marry and have children..she was "cornered" by the simple fact she was a female..destined to be a "wife and mother' with NO rights ..no money..no choices ..and she NEEDED a man because that was the PLACE she was kept by society..helpless without one..

Her husband WAS her authority LITTERALLY just like our CHILDREN today that we have we have authority over them as parents..

I dont understand why people get that confused with women "becoming modern" veruses our SOCIETY fixing a grave /unfair /injustice perpetrated upon females for 1,000's of years all over the world..

And CLING to the way it was "then" as far as a male having some "divine right" over the female litterally because he was born with a penis..its beyond me.

Dallas
 
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JRSut1000

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I don't know why CHRISTIAN women are so bitter about the ideas prescribed by Paul and Peter! I chose to get married and I elected that [husband's name] be the man who would lead our little family. If I didn't think I could submit to him, I wouldn't have married him! But he IS the man God had for me, my husband and I both know that 100%. So why should the idea of submitting to his leadership freak me out? It simply doesn't.
 
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dallasapple

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Biblical times
See also: Old Testament views on women
Relatively few women are mentioned in the Bible by name and role, suggesting that they were rarely in the forefront of public life. There are a number of exceptions to this rule, including the Matriarchs Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah, Miriam the prophetess, Deborah the Judge, Huldah the prophetess, Abigail who married David, and Esther. In the Biblical account these women did not meet with opposition for the relatively public presence they had.
According to Jewish tradition, a covenant was formed between the Israelites and the God of Abraham at Mount Sinai. The Torah relates that both Israelite men and Israelite women were present at Sinai, however, the covenant was worded in such a way that it bound men to act upon its requirements and to ensure that the members of their household (wives, children, and slaves) met these requirements as well. In this sense, the covenant bound women as well, though indirectly.[1]
Marriage and family law in biblical times favored men over women. For example, a husband could divorce a wife if he chose to, but a wife could not divorce a husband without his consent. The practice of levirate marriage applied to widows of childless deceased husbands, but not to widowers of childless deceased wives. Laws concerning the loss of female virginity have no male equivalent. These and other gender inequalities found in the Torah suggest that women were subordinate to men during biblical times, however, they also suggest that biblical society viewed continuity, property, and family unity as paramount.[1] However, men had specific obligations they were required to perform for their wives. These included the provision of clothing, food, and sexual relations to their wives.[2]
Women also had a role in ritual life. Women (as well as men) were required to make a pilgrimage to the Temple in Jerusalem once a year and offer the Passover sacrifice. They would also do so on special occasions in their lives such as giving a todah ("thanksgiving") offering after childbirth. Hence, they participated in many of the major public religious roles that non-levitical men could, albeit less often and on a somewhat smaller and generally more discreet scale.
Women depended on men economically. Women generally did not own property except in the rare case of inheriting land from a father who didn't bear sons. Even "in such cases, women would be required to remarry within the tribe so as not to reduce its land holdings."[1]

Dallas
 
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EmilyF

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touche... I just want to make sure things stay civil is all, on these online forums sometimes it gets a little crazy. It is easy to read into things people say at times and make assumptions on tone and double meaning. I myself have been guilty of that at times:) If you have a respectful loving relationship with your husband, and both of you are legitimately content with how things go, then that is far more important to me then the technicality of how you accomplish it. I can agree to disagree on the minor things.

When we my wife and I first got married we read a lot of marital counceling books, and for the most part I felt like a bad guy, like all the books we written to convey the womans perspective... which in some ways I understand since the standard system of male leading was totally abused and women didn't have a voice, a lot of those were written to correct that. But in some marriages I feel there has been an "over correction" to where the man is now so submissive his opinions and thoughts don't matter...

ps the best marital counseling book I ever read that actually I think commincated a man's emotional needs was called love and respect. Sadly in general men have done a poor job at letting their wives know they are loved and women have done a bad job of letting the husband know they are respected.
I don't read marital advice books or parenting advice books as a general rule and am less likely to do so when it's for Christians.
I am not the leader of my home either. I do not belittle my husband. I'm raising two boys and I abhor this trend towards GIRL POWER! I see a problem with the changing trend in education that caters to girls.
My husband does a "bad" job of showing his love. He's not very verbal, he's not very affectionate and a few too many days, he's content to ignore me for the pod casts that he listens to, all freaking day.
Now, we talk about this, and I've come to understand that there are in fact other ways he shows his love. He works hard a a job he HATES. He doesn't leave all the care of the boys or the house to me.
We each have our strengths and our weaknesses. Given free reign, we'd run this family into the ground with our human stupidity. I would never in a million years send him grocery shopping and he'd never give me free reign with our money. These things have nothing to do with our gender. It was my father who did the grocery shopping growing up. The man was a hot mess but it was one thing he did well to care for our family.
I suspect that a few of us run our lives with slightly different views and if we walked into one another's homes, things wouldn't be that different.
 
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