Christian Marriage

[Judy02]

I was just curious what people's views are toward how a Christian marriage should be, particularly in relation to Paul's epistles in the NT. How do you interpet "the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church..." Does it imply to you, to be instructing for some kind of male authority, and female subordination? Is the desire for equality and mutual decision making in your view, somehow anti biblical? For anyone, who believes and interprets it to be that the husband "makes the final decisions", do you see this practiced in any other marriages in the bible, where the husband is deferred to as the final decision maker? How about before the times of Paul? Are there examples in the bible of husbands making "final decisions" and exercising ultimate authority over the wife?

What do you think about the fact that more passive and dominant personality types can exist amongst both genders?

What factors would you say influenced your views on the subject? Purely the verses in the bible? Are your views similar to the ones your parents had or practiced? What your church taught? Other friends? The environment and culture in general that you live in? Or the fact that female subordination has traditionally gone on for so long in the world?

Not wanting to debate with anyone, just interested in hearing people's views on what they believe to be a biblical marriage in their own lives and why

 

[McScribe]

This is a good topic, and I will respond more later on it, but I'm exhausted at the moment and need some rest. Just one thought: the basis of it all is "Submit to one another in love." we know Christ came to bring us salvation, not confusing, so it is I believe understandable in a way that brings us peace even in the midst of strife.

 

[jehoiakim]

quietly and softly I tell you I am of the more conservative view point, that the man is the spiritual head of the household...

While I was originally open and willing to be slightly more liberal on the subject, my wife who herself is a very strong and independent woman (clearly a proverbs 31 woman) insisted from the beginning that I be the head of the household. I didn't quite understand why she was so instant at first, but 6 years into a wonderfully amazing marriage I am beginning to understand why God would have designed it that way.

My wife is a far better multitasker then I am, she is a better researcher and many times she has a clear vision of where we should go and how to get there. On paper, my wife makes a far better leader then I do, but she has a strong desire to be led. For me, all things considered it a very humbling thing to be head of the house hold. I am also starting to understand that my wife often makes some of her decisions based on her emotion, not always on what is the most rational or spiritually correct thing to do. Sometimes she has trouble distinguishing between her emotions and intuition. I am sure not every marriage is the same, but I am able to bring a balance to some of that. As long as I say whatever I am going to say to her in totally love and she says whatever she needs to say to me in total respect, our ship runs smoothly. My wife is my highest adviser and I am hesitant to make and decision with out her, and if my ideas contradict her own I work feverishly to identify the discrepancy.

We don't always exercise the typical roles in our family though, for instance while I pull most of our money, my wife is much better with organization and our finances then I am so she pays the bills, but I also happy help out a lot with cleaning, taking care of our baby and cooking more than the average husband does. Ultimately I find we are a team on almost everything, and we both go outside our "roles" and comfort zones to help each other.

From our point of view I know there is a great book called Biblical Manhood and Womanhood that portrays a lot of our beliefs well. sadly the conservative view has been totally abused and I feel the view of egalitarianism is an over reaction. By trying to give women equality it inadvertently removes the calling and purpose for a man. You see it even in the play of little boys, the desire for them to want to be heros. Men need something to be responsible for and without that they don't have a purpose. I think that is why you see a lot of marriages failing, because you have a lot of lost fathers trying to figure out how they fit in their family, and you have overworked mothers trying to be mothers and fill the role of the fathers. It is heartbreaking really.

 

[Everlasting33]

I think its absolutely ridiculous for a husband to make all the final decisions. And what does that even mean? Final decisions just in the big, life events like buying a house or taking a job in another state? Or does it mean EVERY decision? If a woman is to submit in "everything," does this not assume an all or nothing fallacy?

It has confused me when I was a teenager and it continues to into adulthood.

I think its important in my marriage to serve my husband and to submit to him in little decisions. However, I don't do this because I am a woman. I do this because its what encompasses a healthy marriage. I refuse to do all the submitting and mutal submission is most ideal. How can a one sided submission ever be healthy?

 

[JRSut1000]

I have to agree with the previous poster, God made men and women perfect for one another. If He went through the trouble to create us physically in such a way that we can 'fit together' perfectly, then how much more emotionally and as a team? We are equals, but equals with differing (and complimentary) purposes.

Equality has become an issue of 'sameness' and that takes away from the beauty of what and who men and women are meant to be.

As far as what it looks like, honestly it's going to be slightly different for each home and family. Here's what *I* see as the ideal (not always practical and feasible, I understand that):

Man is the primary care provider and protector of the family. He is the head (and leader) of the home. Woman is the heart (nurturer) of the family which includes but is not limited to (don't I sound like a TV ad? lol) nurturing young children, keeping home neat, cooking wholesome (doesn't have to be from scratch) meals.

I do also believe that a man should lead when it comes to the spiritual health and wholeness of his family, but the woman sets the tone a lot of times for the atmosphere of the home too.

Anyways, I'm sure someone will argue this and I don't plan on entering into that debate [much], just thought I'd share my 2 cents.

P.S. Been married almost 3 years and honestly I'd rate our marriage with a solid 'A' grade.

 

[JRSut1000]

Let me just say this as far as decision-making and leadership. I DO believe the man is the head of the home (as stated previously). When it comes to final big decisions, I really DO think it is the husband's role to make that decision for his family.

HOWEVER (there's a big 'but'), when a man and woman come together in one accord as one flesh, I do believe the Lord will respond to their request/prayers for wisdom and answer their prayer for direction by 2-3 witnesses (or ways).

 

[Everlasting33]

Let me just say this as far as decision-making and leadership. I DO believe the man is the head of the home (as stated previously). When it comes to final big decisions, I really DO think it is the husband's role to make that decision for his family.

HOWEVER (there's a big 'but'), when a man and woman come together in one accord as one flesh, I do believe the Lord will respond to their request/prayers for wisdom and answer their prayer for direction by 2-3 witnesses (or ways).

What does it mean to you when a woman is supposed to "submit in everything?"

 

[dallasapple]

By trying to give women equality it inadvertently removes the calling and purpose for a man.

This is what I find heartbreaking..that some men feel like they have no purpose at all ...if its not being in authority over a woman..or that he has no calling in the life God gave him..if the woman he loves is equal to him.


[QUOTEIt is heartbreaking really. ][/QUOTE]

I personally put far more importance on men..the men in my life including my 3 sons two of which are adults now and one is a father himself..than they have "no purpose' if they arent "in charge" over a woman..or dont have dominance over a woman who is submissive to them..My sons have great importance PERIOD..they werent put on this earth to "accomplish" making "final decisions" in their relationships with their wives.

Some men maybe were ..you seem to believe that about your self..but I take offense that you seem to be including my children ,my sons ..in your feelings of no purpose in life unless you can be "final authority" over a woman..Which is untrue..

Dallas

 

[JRSut1000]

If a husband absolutely says "NO", then obviously as long as he isn't asking you to sin, then do so. I think it's straightforward. Not what many women want to hear, but that's how it is.

Many women when I say these things, will say that it leaves room for abuse. And I can't deny that, but Scriptures also say to submit like Sarah and not to have fear.

Submitting doesn't mean being a doormat, being a good wife means submitting, and being a good husband means leading.

To the wife, submit to husbands as unto the Lord (pretty serious huh?)

To the man, love wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her (pretty serious also!).

So both parties are addressed within the Scriptures. I find it best to worry about what I am doing to fulfill my responsibilities rather than trying to make sure my husband is in check with his roles/responsibilities.

Might I also mention this. Submitting doesn't mean going with everything without talking it over and offering her wisdom as well. God does give wives understanding, so it would be foolish to just clam up and never say anything to her husband.

Submitting is first an attitude of the heart before it can ever be actions. One can submit (the action), yet do so with a horrible, resentful attitude. In reality, this isn't submitting.

 

[Everlasting33]

JR...

So, its assumed that men can make better decisions? If men are consistently required to make these decisions, would it not make sense that women use less discernment and skill over time? It sounds self- defeating.

 

[dallasapple]

If a husband absolutely says "NO", then obviously as long as he isn't asking you to sin, then do so. I think it's straightforward. Not what many women want to hear, but that's how it is.

Its not that its not what many women "want to hear" ..its what many women know has absolutely no rhyme nor reason to it in the first place..a man is NO more equipped based solely on the fact hes a male to make decisions for someone else including his wife..And men are supposed to be the logical ones?It makes NO logical sense..not one bit..if its a mans "need" even as to his purpose?Thats EMOTIONAL..LOL! How ironic..

This was the structure during times when women were LITTERALLY 2nd class cictizens to men.They were like property..they NEEDED a man either thier father or a husband to support them..they had NO rights..whatsoever..so for her "own good" ..she just better do what he says..and he hopefully 'loved her' which was commanded because during those times...marragie wasnt about "love"..it was a necessity..

Now we dont have to get married at all for survival its a choice..women can be brain surgeons and astronauts..she doesnt "need" a "male' to make decisions for her pertainign to HER life or that of her families..its silly and ridiculous in MY life to "pretend" I need my husband to be the 'final authority"..I had a mother and a father when I was a child..Im a grown woman..a "man" doesnt need to tell me what to do or "lead" me or else I might just get hurt or somethign "bad" might happen to me..

And that Im sorry is something that many "men' dont want to hear..

Thank goodness its phasing out..to where most the Christians I know ..agree its "antiquated" and was a need at the time the bible was written that doesnt exist now.And even then there were CLEAR examples of women going against their husbands "authority" and it was pleasing to God..

Dallas

 

[mkgal1]

I have to use a paraphrased quote from another thread. It was just too good, and I can't come up with anything better on my own.

"There isn't much about all of this is the Bible. Most of this structure on roles and final decisions has been made up, mostly by people that believe the 50's was be best decade EVER."

 

[WolfGate]

I'm just going to wait for our new guidelines to come out... (whistles innocently)

 

[JRSut1000]

I can't believe I'm the minority here. Scriptures say to the wives to submit specifically, never is it specifically mentioned to the man.

Woman - submit to husband AS UNTO THE LORD.
Men - love wives as CHRIST LOVED THE CHURCH.

How is this overlooked? Submission of women is advocated both by Paul (unmarried) and Peter (married).

 

[dallasapple]

I have to use a paraphrased quote from another thread. It was just too good, and I can't come up with anything better on my own.

"There isn't much about all of this is the Bible. Most of this structure on roles and final decisions has been made up, mostly by people that believe the 50's was be best decade EVER."

I agree...I was thinking the same words..its "made up"..back in Biblical times the husband was LITTERALLY the wifes authority ..similar to how parents are in authority over our children..women back then had about the same rights as 10 year old child does in todays society.

And I think its ironic..in order for a man to even claim he is his wifes "athourity" she has to AGREE..IOW he needs her PERMISSION even for them to pretend that he is..

Another thing I find ironic..is supposedly one of the reasons she NEEDS the "man" to be the head is hes supposed to be "less emotional"..but yet the whole reason its important for him to beleive hes the "leader' is for PSYCHOLOGICAL reasons..for his "emotional" health..If a man feels "lost with no purpose" becasue he doesnt get to "play" the role of "boss" of the woman therefore thats the importance of it..so he feels "purposeful"..its ALL about HIS emotional need..not a LITTERAL need..we ALL know the woman woud be FINE on her own ..or even LEADING him if the ONLY fact is gender..There is NO logical reason for the man to automatically be the 'leader" and the wife submissive to him..NONE..there is no PRACTICAL need for him to be the "final authority" leader head either..IF you are basing it on gender alone..which is exaclty whats suggested..

If my husband felt like he had no purpose in life or in our marraige if I was "equal to him"..thats not a God thing"..thats purely emotional..an irrational fear to be exact.

Dallas

 

[iambren]

Simply put, the man is the king, the woman is the queen.

He's the head but boy, can he be influenced!

 

[illudium_phosdex]

Man! That whole submission thing is so subjective, it's not even worth discussing with anyone other than your own spouse. I mean, that's the only person it should really matter to anyway.

My husband and I both kind of take a humorous view of it. This hasn't always been the case but not too long ago we were talking about something and I disagreed with him so he stood up and looking all Roman gladiator-like goes, "Submit woman!" I knew he was kidding and we both had a good laugh about it. It served to add a little comic relief to a discussion that could have easily gotten way out of hand. As a result of stepping back and having a laugh, we were both able to come to an agreement about the subject.

We have our disagreements here and there. He makes me mad. I make him mad. One day is great, the next ok and the third could be a disaster. But we love each other and try to just do our best by each other. We've got kids and that can add a whole new monkey wrench into the works at times. We're working on getting on the same page with that kind of stuff too. I try my best to see his side of things. I hope he does with me. I think he does. Anyway, I personally think that "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" works better as a guideline for marriage than just about anything else.

So yeah, there's my $0.02 for what it's worth.

 

[McScribe]

It's interesting that scripture. As I did in another thread I'd like to break that down.

How does the church submit to Christ? Surely it is as the disciples submitted to Christ? So initially they may have done as servants, but Jesus clearly says "I no longer call you servants, but friends." So it seems to me that a wife is being called to be a friend to her husband. Next, if Jesus is a leader we as church are to follow his example. And we are also to love Jesus with all our heart. We are to take what Jesus says seriously and respect It. We are to be generous.

In a way then if the husband is to be like Christ is to the church then we as husbands must want to see our wives lifted up, encouraged, reminded of who they are in the Lord, reminded of Gods protection but to be like that protection, to remind of Gods provision but to provide as well. We are to be brave. This is hard because all of us fear losing love, but we should speak the truth to our wives in love even at risk because Jesus did. Rarely being angry and never abusing authority, but not fearing that authority either.

Submit to one another in love transcends all social philosophies in generosity, mercy and wisdom. As each husband and wife strives to be Christlike it should be something that gives us strength.

 

[dallasapple]

I can't believe I'm the minority here. Scriptures say to the wives to submit specifically, never is it specifically mentioned to the man.

Woman - submit to husband AS UNTO THE LORD.
Men - love wives as CHRIST LOVED THE CHURCH.

How is this overlooked? Submission of women is advocated both by Paul (unmarried) and Peter (married).

It also never SPECIFICALLY says the husband is to respect his wife..does that mean he doesnt have to respect her?

It also NEVER specifically instructs a WIFE to love her husband..does that mean she should not love him?

You can say its "assumed"..right?That he should respect her and that she should love him?

You need to look at the context..the times and WHO they were talking to..

Also that word "submit' its been changed from "subject"..which changes the meaning entirley..

There is a discussion thread in the womens area that goes into detail on that..

Dallas

 

[jehoiakim]

I really don't think many of us on the more conservative end really believe that the man is greater then the woman... I don't think we have a problem with equality, but we believe that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses. We would consider ourselves complimentarian, that we need each other in a marriage. Lets face it, the majority of men are horrible at multitasking, I don't doubt that my wife is an amazing trusted equal but we need each other.

Certainly there are abuses where the man dominates the woman and does not allow her to speak or be involved in and serious discussion. I have a major problem with that, but I have also seen the other extreme where women use "equality" ans an excuse to take the lead by belittling and disrespect their husbands, push them out of any responsibility,"immasculate" them and dominate the same amount as some men have abused their wives in the past. They disrespect their husbands with an amazing amount of Comtempt.